when should i go to a fmic?

[90T5I]

i kno throwing a fmic on a stock turbo with stock psi is kinda pointless cause all u will do is lose volume and increase turbo lag. but i want to start building my dsm soon once i get it up and running again like im going to maft as a first mod. but thats off topic. when is a good time to consider going to a front mount? or do i even need to? could i jst put a bigger higher performance side mount in? im not big on flashin my turbo-ness around. . Maybe a noob question but what is a sleeper? not relevant to this post but i was curious

 

[Dsmj89]

You really don't NEED a fmic, there are plenty of dsm drag cars out there that their turbos shoot straight into the intake mani, but remember these are drag only cars and require cool times in between runs, this obviously wouldn't be an ideal daily driver.
A fmic does however, as stated multiple times, help keep intake temps down which in the long run your motor will thank you.

 

[MY1GDSM]

They have no IC because the don't run Gas they run Methanol...Or some form of Alky./Racegas which burns much colder then Gas ...so they have no need for an IC...
since there AIT's are so much lower

 

[jrohner]

Get a FMIC when you have issues controlling knock after some long pulls (heatsoak). You should be able to run more timing and/or leaner AFRs with a front mount.

First, make sure you are pulling in as cool of air to the air filter as possible. Get it so there is somewhere to get fresh outside air and block it from taking in hot under-hood air.

Mine takes about 2-300 rpms more to make full boost; 27-2800 it makes full boost now, it was around 2500 before with a SMIC.

 

[chico904]

I Do agree with the reasons of when you should get A FMIC, but the question of why was not brought up. I got a FMIC and I am running 15psi on a T-25. Why?
The kit only costed $300
It includes all new hard piping (including the UICP that many people replace because of the pancaking stock one as one of their first mods)
All new T-bolt clamps (replacing all the old, worn worm clamps which is a good idea)
All new silicon couplers (replacing old, and possibly cracker couplers)
Brand new intercooler (replacing your old, possibly bent, with holes, leaks, smic)
For me it was a matter of wanting to replace all the items other than the intercooler, and after looking at the cost, it was wise to get the kit.
Bottom line, if this is applicable to you, I would suggest the FMIC kit. In case you ever do decide to go with a bigger setup, you will be ready.

 

[Evil90TSi]

I Do agree with the reasons of when you should get A FMIC, but the question of why was not brought up. I got a FMIC and I am running 15psi on a T-25. Why?
The kit only costed $300
It includes all new hard piping (including the UICP that many people replace because of the pancaking stock one as one of their first mods)
All new T-bolt clamps (replacing all the old, worn worm clamps which is a good idea)
All new silicon couplers (replacing old, and possibly cracker couplers)
Brand new intercooler (replacing your old, possibly bent, with holes, leaks, smic)
For me it was a matter of wanting to replace all the items other than the intercooler, and after looking at the cost, it was wise to get the kit.
Bottom line, if this is applicable to you, I would suggest the FMIC kit. In case you ever do decide to go with a bigger setup, you will be ready.

Very good reasoning but most people don't have just $300 sitting around to throw at a T-25 just to lose power.

 

[LandoAWD]

Very good reasoning but most people don't have just $300 sitting around to throw at a T-25 just to lose power.

You'd be surprised. Fools tend to have $$$. I never understood why.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

I may be a fool too, but I've known for the last 25 years that colder air is more dense air, more dense air = more power. That's why when I built my 4G63T with all brand new forged internals, and a brand new EvoIII big 16G, etc, etc, I didn't waste my time looking for a SMIC to fit into a Dodge Colt. I just bought a $175 FMIC kit complete with piping, couplers, t-clamps, and a knockoff BOV. I'm still not sure about the BOV, it tends to spring little leaks every 500 miles, but I have no complaints about the rest of it. I cut the pipes to fit, rolled beads on the ends, and haven't had one problem. It's only 2.5"x 7"x 27" but it seems to work great, I didn't have to hack my bumper or anything else, and well, quite frankly, "You wanna' race chumps?"

I'll just switch off my A/C after driving all day, and smoke all y'all.

I'm just kidding around with you guys, don't take me the wrong way. But when I did my build, I was like that guy in the Long John Silvers commercial who's standing on the pier with ten million fishing poles. The dude says to him, "So what are you going for?" and he replies, "I WANT IT ALL!"

 

[LandoAWD]

. This is an example of knowing what you need and why you need it, though. Not knowing why and throwing $$$ at a part is more what I was taking a stab at.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

More pressure = more heat, so theoretically just turning up the boost on your 14b could justify wanting a more efficient IC. When you crank up the pressure on a small turbo it generates more heat than the same pressure on say a 50 trim. IMO it can't be a bad thing to have a larger IC even if you haven't done much more than add a MBC and a logger. Sure there's a such thing as overkill, but for the most part the pros outweigh the cons.

 

[Dsmj89]

More pressure = more heat, so theoretically just turning up the boost on your 14b could justify wanting a more efficient IC. When you crank up the pressure on a small turbo it generates more heat than the same pressure on say a 50 trim. IMO it can't be a bad thing to have a larger IC even if you haven't done much more than add a MBC and a logger. Sure there's a such thing as overkill, but for the most part the pros outweigh the cons.

Very well said. AMEN to that !

 

[niddydsm]

why do people act like you loose a considerable amount of power by frount mounting a stock turbo ??. You Barely notice any difference and the difference is only from a dead stop

 

[LandoAWD]

the difference is only from a dead stop

Err, what? Explain how you reached this conclusion.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

I think what he means to say, is that the difference is only during the transition from 0 boost to full boost. Which would be "only from a dead stop" during a drag race, if you power shift, have an automatic, or have antilag controls. As long as you aren't loosing boost from leaks, the only drawback to having a larger volume of air in your IC and piping is the time it takes to reach full pressure. If you figure it out on paper, that volume is really insignifigant. The engine and turbo are moving a crapload of air compared to the fraction of a gram more air that can fit in a larger IC. If your turbo flows 37 pounds of air per minute, now stop and think how much the AIR that your IC holds really weighs.

In other words, as long as you aren't leaking the air out, it's all going to the same place. There's just a little more space to fill before you have full pressure.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

In case anyone was wondering, a cubic yard of air (enough to fill your entire engine bay almost twice) weighs about two pounds.

An EvoIII big 16g flows about 40 lbs per minute.

Granted you have to subtract the amount of air that the engine consumes, but depending on how much bigger your IC and piping is compared to your old IC and piping, we're only talking about making up a few soda cans worth of more air.

 

[Evil90TSi]

why do people act like you loose a considerable amount of power by frount mounting a stock turbo ??. You Barely notice any difference and the difference is only from a dead stop

If you've read horsepower charts you'd know the horrible meaning of those words.

 

[BkzProblem]

You guys are funny... Think about it... If you buy a nice sized Fmic that has a very small pressure drop, you will barely notice the "lag" you guys are talking about... No one in this discussion is making any insane h.p. where that extra piping is going to hurt anything... The stock smic is prone to heat soaking even with stock boost levels... The benefits of putting a fmic will be increased surface area which means incread cooling which means increased horsepower..... The "lag" that you guys are so scared of will not even be noticeable.... maybe a few tenths of a second to spool but once the boost is in the pipes, it isn't going anywhere.... Try telling your spool theories to the guys with rear mounted turbos and have piping as long as a football field and still spool those turbos up incredebly fast... Cooler air outweighs the "so called hp drop" any day....

 

[nlzn]

In response to painting the intercooler is harmful to performance that's dead wrong.
I've got an article with tests done before and after proving that's a myth. Give me a few and I'll post it up.

 

[LandoAWD]

In response to painting the intercooler is harmful to performance that's dead wrong.
I've got an article with tests done before and after proving that's a myth. Give me a few and I'll post it up.

there was a thread here years back...

 

[90T5I]

haha didnt think i would get this much feedback on my thread . so it seems like upgrading to a fmic is a good idea i might be looking at a small amount of increased turbo lag but not a substancial amount to have to worry about. and if i decide to paint it for any reason it wont hurt performance. and on top of that if i had 300 to throw on a kit right now i would be golden hahah right on thanks for all the advice that helps my decision making on the whole subject. but dont let me stop u guys on this discusion. by all means keep going haha. but i think im gonna upgrade once i have a little more bank

 

[BkzProblem]

Smart decision.... but I don't think its so much of the paint itself that effects intercooler performance but how it is painted... if you paint like a mad man, and get paint between the fins, then it can obstruct the airflow of the air flowing through it and hurt performance....

 

[MY1GDSM]

just have it anodized if you want the sleeper look....

 

[tkelly27]

Front mounts are normally the first thing I do to a car because I know I will be reaching the limits of the stock IC sooner or later, and I just like having it there. In my experience going from the side mount to a bigger front mount had my turbo spooling up more quickly. I've heard of other noticing this too.

As far as the EVOX, http://www.extremeturbosystems.com/images/Evolution-X-Intercooler-Kit.jpg that piping arrangement is going to be hard to plumb. The 8's and 9's fit pretty ok though. http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h309/tkelly27/Photo0480.jpg that's my car with the ebay 8/9 upgrade cooler. It was cheap : D

A vast majority of OEM IC's are painted. Hell, so are the radiators, oil coolers, tranny coolers, and AC condensors. Lets suppose that the paint is hurting thermal efficiency. Don't you think some penny pincher somewhere could do the math, figure out that they could get away with a smaller, more efficient version of all of those heat exchangers, saving money not only on the materials but the paint?

I'm all for front mounts, but with a 14b on stock boost you can go faster with other parts. Pneumo had a stock side mount for the longest time while he was knocking on the 14b record. You will quickly reach a point where the side mount is keeping you from going as fast as you could be going.

If the OP's mod list is correct, he shouldn't be worrying about mods affecting turbo lag when he's got a stock exhaust. I can't imagine anything but a 4" race core with 3" pipes could make the 14b seem laggy with a decent exhaust.

 

[kenamond]

I'm hearing a lot of naive talk here.

An FMIC will lower intake temps. Hotter intake temperatures don't just "wear your engine out sooner". Hotter intake temps lead to knock which leads to the ECU pulling timing which drops power. Knock also damages the motor.

If you're not knocking, you don't *need* an FMIC.

But...

If you add an FMIC, even on a T25, you can run higher boost without knocking, and that means no pulled timing, and all of that means more air+fuel+timing which means more power.

Adding an FMIC doesn't lose you power if you also turn up the boost. You *gain* power.

But you can only turn up the boost so high when limited by the fuel system.

So if you're not limited by fuel, can turn up the boost on your current turbo, but currently are limited by knock, an FMIC will let you go farther.

If you have a tuning capability, you can also run a leaner AFR without knock when you have colder intake temps, and that also increases power.

And all of the above also applies to a wather/meth injection kit. Evaporative cooling and increased methanol octane both combat knock which lets you increase boost and/or increase AFR.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

I'm hearing a lot of naive talk here.

An FMIC will lower intake temps. Hotter intake temperatures don't just "wear your engine out sooner". Hotter intake temps lead to knock which leads to the ECU pulling timing which drops power. Knock also damages the motor.

If you're not knocking, you don't *need* an FMIC.

But...

If you add an FMIC, even on a T25, you can run higher boost without knocking, and that means no pulled timing, and all of that means more air+fuel+timing which means more power.

Adding an FMIC doesn't lose you power if you also turn up the boost. You *gain* power.

But you can only turn up the boost so high when limited by the fuel system.

So if you're not limited by fuel, can turn up the boost on your current turbo, but currently are limited by knock, an FMIC will let you go farther.

If you have a tuning capability, you can also run a leaner AFR without knock when you have colder intake temps, and that also increases power.

And all of the above also applies to a wather/meth injection kit. Evaporative cooling and increased methanol octane both combat knock which lets you increase boost and/or increase AFR.

Well said. So there you have it folks, it's never too soon to upgrade to a FMIC.

Exept in my case, I installed my FMIC a week before I pulled the N/A engine out.

No, it wasn't hooked up.

 

[pboglio]

There is almost no right answer to this question. I definitely would do a FMIC after I got a good engine management system though. If I recall correctly I did mine after the turbo install but before upgraded cams. It definitely makes for a dead consistent setup.

I think this question can be tied into cost. With the current FMIC prices I would do them early on. Years back it was a near $1300 mod that guys put off till the end if ever. Nowadays you can score a massive kickbutt FMIC for $400.