What's wrong with this?

[kwaliph]

I need some help pretty bad as you can see. I spent some time trying to rid this knock and nothing seems to work. This is my old tune for 15psi, but at 19 psi. I understand I need to retune for 19 psi but something just seems off. Why do I have so much knock at 19 psi? Don't my supporting mods easily cover 19 psi? Why does the O2 signal go to 0 volts?

TIMA O2-R TPS ERPM KNCK INJP ---
27.00 0.39 89.41 2468.75 0.00 5.63 14.00
27.00 0.76 97.25 2468.75 0.00 6.14 16.00
26.00 0.78 99.61 2531.25 0.00 6.40 17.00
26.00 0.82 100.00 2562.50 0.00 6.66 18.00
24.00 0.82 100.00 2593.75 0.00 6.40 17.00
23.00 0.78 100.00 2656.25 0.00 6.66 18.00
21.00 0.72 100.00 2656.25 0.00 7.17 20.00
20.00 0.72 100.00 2750.00 0.00 7.68 22.00
19.00 0.78 100.00 2781.25 0.00 8.19 24.00
18.00 0.82 100.00 2812.50 1.00 8.96 26.00
16.00 0.84 100.00 2906.25 1.00 10.24 31.00
14.00 0.86 100.00 2968.75 1.00 11.01 34.00
15.00 0.86 100.00 3031.25 0.00 12.03 38.00
15.00 0.84 100.00 3125.00 0.00 13.06 43.00
14.00 0.84 100.00 3187.50 0.00 14.08 47.00
15.00 0.84 100.00 3312.50 4.00 15.36 54.00
12.00 0.82 100.00 3406.25 20.00 16.90 61.00
8.00 0.80 100.00 3468.75 27.00 16.90 62.00
7.00 0.80 100.00 3625.00 26.00 16.64 64.00
7.00 0.80 100.00 3687.50 26.00 16.64 65.00
7.00 0.80 100.00 3750.00 26.00 16.38 65.00
8.00 0.80 100.00 3875.00 25.00 16.13 66.00
9.00 0.80 100.00 4000.00 25.00 16.38 70.00
9.00 0.80 100.00 4093.75 26.00 16.38 71.00
9.00 0.80 100.00 4093.75 25.00 16.90 73.00
9.00 0.80 100.00 4218.75 25.00 16.64 75.00
9.00 0.80 100.00 4312.50 25.00 17.15 79.00
9.00 0.80 100.00 4406.25 25.00 17.66 83.00
9.00 0.80 100.00 4468.75 24.00 17.41 83.00
9.00 0.78 100.00 4562.50 24.00 17.41 84.00
9.00 0.78 100.00 4656.25 24.00 17.66 87.00
10.00 0.80 100.00 4687.50 30.00 17.66 88.00
8.00 0.78 100.00 4750.00 30.00 17.15 87.00
8.00 0.76 100.00 4875.00 30.00 17.41 90.00
8.00 0.76 100.00 4875.00 30.00 17.15 89.00
8.00 0.76 100.00 4968.75 29.00 16.13 85.00
9.00 0.74 100.00 5093.75 29.00 16.13 87.00
9.00 0.74 100.00 5093.75 29.00 16.90 91.00
10.00 0.74 100.00 5187.50 29.00 16.64 92.00
10.00 0.74 100.00 5281.25 32.00 16.64 93.00
10.00 0.74 100.00 5343.75 32.00 15.87 90.00
10.00 0.72 100.00 5375.00 32.00 16.64 95.00
7.00 0.74 100.00 5437.50 39.00 15.87 92.00
8.00 0.72 100.00 5500.00 38.00 15.87 93.00
8.00 0.70 100.00 5562.50 38.00 15.87 94.00
9.00 0.72 100.00 5656.25 43.00 15.87 95.00
7.00 0.68 100.00 5718.75 43.00 15.62 95.00
8.00 0.68 100.00 5781.25 42.00 15.62 96.00
8.00 0.70 100.00 5750.00 42.00 16.13 99.00
8.00 0.70 100.00 5843.75 42.00 15.36 95.00
8.00 0.66 100.00 5812.50 42.00 15.62 96.00
9.00 0.68 100.00 5906.25 42.00 14.34 90.00
9.00 0.41 100.00 6062.50 42.00 15.36 99.00
9.00 0.55 100.00 6000.00 43.00 15.36 98.00
9.00 0.66 100.00 6031.25 43.00 14.08 90.00
9.00 0.04 100.00 6093.75 42.00 13.82 90.00
8.00 0.02 100.00 6125.00 42.00 14.59 95.00
7.00 0.02 100.00 6250.00 42.00 13.57 90.00
8.00 0.02 100.00 6312.50 41.00 14.34 96.00
7.00 0.20 100.00 6343.75 41.00 14.85 100.00
7.00 0.02 100.00 6312.50 41.00 14.85 100.00
7.00 0.02 100.00 6218.75 41.00 13.57 90.00
7.00 0.02 100.00 6343.75 40.00 13.82 93.00
7.00 0.02 100.00 6375.00 40.00 13.82 94.00
7.00 0.02 61.18 6343.75 40.00 13.06 88.00
7.00 0.82 14.90 6531.25 0.00 0.00 0.00

 

[screwdgie]

By the looks of your o2 voltage, you are running real lean. Not sure why it goes to zero though. The o2 sensor my be bad. How old is it?

 

[kwaliph]

By the looks of your o2 voltage, you are running real lean.

Why am I running lean? Shouldn't my setup easily handle 19 psi?

The o2 sensor my be bad. How old is it?

I don't know how old it is but I have performed all the necessary checks to say that it's a good sensor and the harness side checks A ok.

Also, I did attempt a retune with about 5 runs adding 2% correction each run. The knock got alitte better but it actually began to rise at ~8-10% + correction. I am baffled on why this is. Can someone maybe post their experiences with rich knock so I have something to compare with?

 

[xcelr8n]

Have you checked your base timing lately?

 

[screwdgie]

Also check for boost leaks, they will screw you up. If you dont find any, try again , they can be a pain.

As for the o2 sensor, does it cycle properly while just driving around normally?

 

[kwaliph]

Have you checked your base timing lately?

Actually, yes. I have been meaning to check my timging ever since I installed my UIP b/c I had removed the iron brace that uses the same stud as the CAS. I checked my timing with a Snap-On timing light and it checked out perfect 5 degrees BTDC.

Also check for boost leaks, they will screw you up.

I have checked for boost leaks before but I have a suspicion that I did not perform the necessary steps to allow the engine to be tested. Is there a "right" way to check for Boost leaks? If I can get my hands on some instructions, I will test tomorrow.

As for the o2 sensor, does it cycle properly while just driving around normally?

Oh but ofcourse. As mentioned earlier, I have checked my O2 sensor with my DVOM and it ranges from .2-.8 volts in close loop operation.

 

[screwdgie]

When doing a boost leak test, spray soapy water anywhere you think you may have a leak (bov gasket area, throttle body, etc..) One place that screwed me up because I didnt hear anything and couldnt spray soapy water over it was the outlet of the stock intercooler. It was covered in dirt and crap and was corroded, it actually had a few pin-sized holes in it. If you are running the stock side mount, its a good idea to pull it off and check for corrosion. Might as well clean it while its out.

http://www.vfaq.com/mods/ICtester.html (doesn't hurt to read it again )

 

[kwaliph]

When doing a boost leak test, spray soapy water anywhere you think you may have a leak (bov gasket area, throttle body, etc..) One place that screwed me up because I didnt hear anything and couldnt spray soapy water over it was the outlet of the stock intercooler. It was covered in dirt and crap and was corroded, it actually had a few pin-sized holes in it. If you are running the stock side mount, its a good idea to pull it off and check for corrosion. Might as well clean it while its out.

Funny you say that b/c I had just removed and cleaned my smic and it looks tip top. I have done exactly what you said to do before and got less than satisfactory results. The engine wouldn't hold 10 psi solidly. It would hiss down to 3-4 psi and stay there. Past 15 psi, the hiss would double in loudness. I have sprayed the throttle body, all the IC pipes including IC, most vacuum lines, and the top half of the intake mani to head gasket (what I can see) and nothing. Infact, the only places that produced bubbles is the IAC connector (motor side) and a small vacuum line underneath the intake mani.

 

[screwdgie]

Ya boost leaks really suck. I'm positive I have a few little ones left also, but I'm having trouble finding them.

You may want to check the PCV valve to see if that is functioning correctly. If its bad, get a new one from the dealer, the pepboys or autozone ones are just a waste of money.

 

[kwaliph]

You may want to check the PCV valve to see if that is functioning correctly. If its bad, get a new one from the dealer, the pepboys or autozone ones are just a waste of money.

OHSNAP! I have a autozone PCV on it now. Now that you say that (I was just waiting for someone to say something about that) it's my first priority to get an OEM PCV valve. But you think this would create this much trouble with knock?

 

[xcelr8n]

I can say from first hand experience that those non-OEM PCV valves play havoc on your cars performance. Mine was fully pissing air ito the crankcase, now I dunno about causing knock persay, but thats a hell of a boost leak.

 

[fwdeclipse]

Correct me if im wrong but I beleive a boost leak would hide knock.It reads the unmetered air and runs richer because of this.

 

[screwdgie]

Well I am pretty sure I have a boost leak or two still, and my fuel trims at the moment are 139-low, 109-mid, 103-high. So it looks like I am on the lean side, yet there's no reason I should be running lean. At the moment I am on 10 psi with a 190 pump.
Boost leaks can make your car do weird things.

 

[kwaliph]

Correct me if im wrong but I beleive a boost leak would hide knock.It reads the unmetered air and runs richer because of this.

That is how I thought it worked. This is the reason I have allowed these boosk leaks to continue, they promote a rich mixture and help defend against knock at the mercy of the comp/turb wheel spinning faster to maintain the same psi. But this obviously is not the case. I still have massive amounts of knock. Even at 15 psi with no corrections I would hit 34-38 counts of knock. Shouldn't my chip and larger injectors and fuel pump and afpr easily handle 15 psi without much tuning? Because it took alot of tuning to get the knock to a max of 12 counts (lowest I could manage before it would start to go up with more fuel).

Thanks for the input. It's greatly appreciated.

EDIT: BTW, I was wondering what you guys think on this: Are boost leaks the same as vacuum leaks? Why or why not do vacuum leak test methods work for boost leaks?

 

[screwdgie]

Yea you should be able to run 15 psi pretty easy. How old is your knock sensor? Does your car have bad lifter tick? I ask this because mine does until I drive it around a good 10 minutes, but until then the knock sensor picks up the ticking as knock, and drives me crazy! Although looking at your log, it doesnt seem like thats the case with you, but its something to look at.

You said you had to add up to 8-10% correction at some points? That seems kinda high. Your problem may be as simple as a boost leak. Loosing some of that unmetered air will make the car run rich, and you'll see some rich knock. While adding even more fuel in won't help the situation.

 

[kwaliph]

Yea you should be able to run 15 psi pretty easy. How old is your knock sensor? Does your car have bad lifter tick? I ask this because mine does until I drive it around a good 10 minutes, but until then the knock sensor picks up the ticking as knock, and drives me crazy! Although looking at your log, it doesnt seem like thats the case with you, but its something to look at.

I haven't experienced anything like that. It will see knock under any condition. How long I've been driving makes no difference. But I have a new knock sensor waiting in my backseat so I'll go ahead and throw it on to see if that helps.

You said you had to add up to 8-10% correction at some points? That seems kinda high. Your problem may be as simple as a boost leak. Loosing some of that unmetered air will make the car run rich, and you'll see some rich knock. While adding even more fuel in won't help the situation.

This actually sounds like my issue.

My only problem is: what state should the engine be during the test? i.e. warmed up, #1 cylinder at TDC or anything like that?

 

[screwdgie]

I don't think it matters where TDC is, but I have heard the engine should be warmed up. I have always done mine when the motor is pretty much cold, but then again that may be why I cant find the last of my leaks.

 

[kwaliph]

Your problem may be as simple as a boost leak. Loosing some of that unmetered air will make the car run rich, and you'll see some rich knock. While adding even more fuel in won't help the situation.

The only problem I just saw with this is look at my O2 readings. They don't show rich knock at all. They actually show lean mixture going to a ultra lean condition (0 volts). But that could be my alternator belt slipping again.

 

[screwdgie]

Yea I have seen a couple of posts lately, where people have a problem with their o2 reading lean, yet they are running very rich (car stumbles, alot of carbon out the exhaust/exhaust smells like gas). I think a leak test revealed they had a few leaks, and that helped their situation after it was fixed.

Here's one: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212672&highlight=running+rich+lean+o2

 

[kwaliph]

Wells turns out I had a huge leak at the IC outlet (2.5" clamp on a 1.75" outlet ). After fixing this I began pressure testing again and it held 20 psi better than before (it still doesnt hold but drops much slower). I found leaks in the following places: at first all 4 injectors but after a snug on the rail bolts only cylinder #3 still remained to leak, and the adjustment screw on my semi-new afpr. Then something funny happened. The tester popped off at 18-20 psi and I do nothing different but put it back on. The boost rasies to 17 psi and the bov starts opening and doesnt allow the system to go past 17 psi unless I block off the recirc tube with my hand then t goes to 21 psi before my hand starts to fart.

Have I damaged my bov?! Why doesnt my system hold 20 psi anymore?

 

[screwdgie]

If you are still running the stock 1g bov, many can't hold over 17 psi. You can either crush it or try this mod: http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo_bov_mod.html. It has been tested to hold up to 30 psi.

It's possible the vacuum line from the bov to the manifold came off also. Just somethin to check.

Good to hear you are making progress, I figured you had a few leaks.