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1G What to do with my sump??

Posted by Cameron Morison, Jun 25, 2019

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  1. Cameron Morison

    Cameron Morison Probationary Member

    9
    3
    Joined Nov 12, 2018
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    Guys, I've been running my 6 bolt engine in a CA3A Mirage Coupe since the start of the year. It is a dedicated track car, being used for both road racing and autocross events. Ive got some aero, big feet, pulling around 1.3-1.4g in corners. Depending on the event I run up to 500whp. As I develop the car these numbers are only going to increase

    My data logging is revealing that I have a level oil oil surge under heavy braking and left handers as as we already know are the weak points of the stock oil system. I am currently over-filled by 10mm and have a Crank Scraper fitted.

    Has anyone encountered this issue, and found a satisfactory solution other than dry sump. I would like to do dry sump at some stage but the car is not long finished so my wallet is still smoking. I'm looking for a cheapish solution to upgrade the factory sump and do my own fabrication. Just want to get a handle on what works for the 4g63 and what is a waste of time

    Ignore the junk data at the end of that log, I had the oil pressure sensor fail completely, suspected due to heat and vibration and caused all the 5v sensors to fault.
    Oil Log.png
     

    242  6

    1993 Mitsubishi Mirage
    awd · manual · 4G63t Swapped
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  2. lasthope05

    lasthope05 Proven Member

    900
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    Joined Mar 31, 2006
    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
    Extend the sump/pick up 1-1.5" and weld the stock baffle plate edges closed so the oil can only enter and exit the center hole. Maybe even swap to a better evo8/9 pickup tube.

    Welding around the edges of the baffle is one of the biggest things to keeping the oil in the sump and not pouring out under high G's.



    @ec17pse Can go more into it, since it's his design I'm talking about.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
  3. TSiAWD666

    TSiAWD666 Supporting Member

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    Joined Aug 15, 2003
    Herndon, Virginia
    On my track car where I see 1.7g braking and laterally I see dips in oil pressure below what you're seeing sometimes, and knock on wood my engine is fine after 7 years running around 370-380whp. I don't overfill as in my case that results in the overfill just coming out into my catch can. Of course my engine isn't your engine and I could be lucky, or I could be normal, sadly there are almost no other cars running (key word, there are a few trying to get there that haven't seen a single track event let alone race) like mine so who is to say. My engine was built by Magnus Motorsports with every upgrade there is short of a dry sump. I have an Accusump 3 quart (though data from Andrew Brilliant seemed to indicate this responded too slowly to be of use). I had been running Motul 300V oil all this time though recently switched to Red Line. So maybe it's the oil choice, maybe it's the quality of machining/assembly/parts... or just pure luck, who is to say as there just isn't enough data. If some other folks that like to talk about racing more than actually do it would get out on the track we might have more data.

    I know if it still bothered me I'd consider trying to make trap doors like described above, and possibly extending the sump area out for more capacity. I've never seen any data showing if or how much that can help in on these 4g63 engines in these orientations, but if we're gonna guess I'd say it has the best chance of helping.
     

    Road Race Build 13K  12  371

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    377 whp · 416 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  4. Cameron Morison

    Cameron Morison Probationary Member

    9
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    Joined Nov 12, 2018
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    My initial thoughts are to extend the sump and pickup, then redesign the horizontal baffle plate in a way that it promotes oil returning to below it, but discourages oil to slosh out, so perhaps a concave shape, with welded around the edges, the large hole for the pickup in the middle, but perhaps a series of smaller holes in the immediate radius around it.

    The sump in that picture, it would certainly help with slosh, but just thinking about how once the initial corner entry is achieved, how to further improve returning oil back to the lower part of the pan under G force (which is throwing the oil on the upper side to one edge of the sump)

    Does anyone know the approximate flow of the oil pump per RPM? also the bypass oil gets dumped on top of the baffles, perhaps it would be better to dump this below the baffle if possible. My oil pump has a ported bypass valve.
     

    242  6

    1993 Mitsubishi Mirage
    awd · manual · 4G63t Swapped
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  5. Cameron Morison

    Cameron Morison Probationary Member

    9
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    Joined Nov 12, 2018
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    1.7G braking? that doesnt seem right but you might have a far better braking setup than me (interested to know brakes + tyres). Im getting a peak of about -1.20g longitudinal acceleration. 1.7 is huge. Under acceleration Im getting around +0.85g in 2nd +0.65g in 3rd gear, +0.5g in 4th and +0.2G in 5th
     

    242  6

    1993 Mitsubishi Mirage
    awd · manual · 4G63t Swapped
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  6. TSiAWD666

    TSiAWD666 Supporting Member

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    Joined Aug 15, 2003
    Herndon, Virginia
    I have real aero, 315 wide near-slick tires, evo x brakes, g-loc brake's highest friction compound pads, and a different suspension and chassis. That may put the braking numbers in perspective.

    I saw a video of yours. Your car is running way more hp than me with my piddly 370-380whp. If I turned my power up to your level I'd be more concerned about oil pressure than I am, based on anecdotes from others rather than my personal experience since as I mentioned this is the highest hp engine I've raced. I only know mine "seems" fine with the dips but that's one engine, and thus one single data point really. If it were me in your shoes I'd try the accusump and oil pan modifications if you won't want to go dry sump. I'm assuming you have a kiggly regulator on the head to keep as much oil out of the head as possible, that might be something else that can help.

    Somewhat related is Frontline Fabrications redesigned oil pump. Using this may at least reduce the chance of oil pump failure during starvation events, though I've not seen any real world data on the efficacy so to me it's just theory. http://frontlinefabrication.com/product/4g63-dsm-evo-ball-bearing-oil-pump/
     

    Road Race Build 13K  12  371

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    377 whp · 416 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  7. Cameron Morison

    Cameron Morison Probationary Member

    9
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    Joined Nov 12, 2018
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    Here is a pic of what Ive done so far. Can you spot any major design faults? The trapdoors are nice and free (Ive modified the hinges to have extra clearance and not jam up). The circle you can just see is the pickup location. I am yet to build the top cover for it or weld the bottom of the sump on properly. There is about 3mm clearance between the bottom of the hinges to the floor of the sump so they dont jam, and allow some fluid past. I cant decide yet whether to weld up the holes in the hinges or not.

    In addition to top cover for the baffle box I am going to fit a flat piece designed to stop oil riding back up onto the higher area too.

    Kinda glad Im doing this too, as I found a couple piston squirter tips in the sump, eek! I've deleted them now as I didnt want them as a weak point. 20190627_192420.jpg
     

    242  6

    1993 Mitsubishi Mirage
    awd · manual · 4G63t Swapped
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    donk likes this.
  8. TSiAWD666

    TSiAWD666 Supporting Member

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    Herndon, Virginia
    Other than the cheese holes it looks close to every wet sump I've seen modified for maintaining oil pickup, so looks good to my eyes. I hope it works, and hopefully you share oil pressure data results.
     

    Road Race Build 13K  12  371

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    377 whp · 416 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  9. Cameron Morison

    Cameron Morison Probationary Member

    9
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    Joined Nov 12, 2018
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    I've got an event on the 14th so will get more data then. Got a few jobs to do on the car but no reason that it shouldn't be ready by then
     

    242  6

    1993 Mitsubishi Mirage
    awd · manual · 4G63t Swapped
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  10. Cameron Morison

    Cameron Morison Probationary Member

    9
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    Joined Nov 12, 2018
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    A couple pics of the finished product. Its on the engine now, but wont be able to fill with oil until I get the manifold back from the ceramic coaters and then turbo etc installed which is about a week away because otherwise the turbo oil drain will leak. 65622638_341800063154638_847320064506986496_n.jpg
    65837923_563146130756099_1410977167113715712_n.jpg
     

    242  6

    1993 Mitsubishi Mirage
    awd · manual · 4G63t Swapped
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    TSiAWD666 likes this.
  11. Cameron Morison

    Cameron Morison Probationary Member

    9
    3
    Joined Nov 12, 2018
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    I had a run today with the new sump, some good some bad. The good is that oil pressure is greatly improved. there are a couple dips in the log but nothing significant. The bad is that oil in the catch can is increased a fair chunk. I think this is because there is that much more oil available to pump around so it is ending up in the head and being pumped out the breather system.

    The oil level in this session was 10mm lower than in the log with the stock sump due to the oil being pushed out the breather so in reality, once that is sorted then oil pressure should be even better.

    Just need to prevent too much oil getting into the head now, first step is the kiggly HLA regulator, but after that might need to look at extra drains.



    oil pressure log.png
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019

    242  6

    1993 Mitsubishi Mirage
    awd · manual · 4G63t Swapped
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