weird correlation knock and temp?!?!?

[Mike Marnik]

Ok so ive finally got my car back up and running after a short in one of the wires to the radiator fans which goes back to the ignition wire. Well ive noticed that if i sit at a light for 10 sec or so and the coolant temps drop to like 190-195 and i take off and give it some gas (not wot) the knock will go up. I wont even be hitting more than 5 psi but once the coolant temps go back up to 197+ the knock completly goes away. I also notice this when cold start the car and go drive that it will do it at only partial throttle. It seems like some kind of phantom knock to me. The only real bad thing i can see about this is when im at the track this spring/summer and sitting at idle while waiting in line and the engine being below 197. The car will bog horribly (timing being pulled) untill it get to temp then the knock dissapears and the car pulls like a raped ape. Any help would be appreciated.

TIA,
Mike

 

[Mike Marnik]

Also i have a new knock sensor and the coolant temp sensor is brand new also. The ecu was recently refurbished with new caps and repairs to where the caps were replaced. When the ecu went out the knock was going crazy all the time and the coolant temps and a few other sensors were not reading either do you think it might have to do with the ecu??

 

[andymoraitis]

Mike,

Sounds like you've done a great deal to get rid of the knock issues we were talking about late last year. I think one of the things you may need to look into would be a thermostat staying partially open. In terms of the ECU issues, I'm going to PM Steve and see what his take is on this. I know the ECU doesn't give full timing above or below a certain range of coolant temperatures, but it shouldn't be doing so by showing knok and pulling timing.

I also did a bit of research and came across this thread regarding the coolant temp sensors on the 1G's. You have more than one and it would benefit you to either check/replace all of them. A link to that thread is here:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190667&highlight=coolant+sensor

Finally, I have to ask if you have excessive lifter tick or noise in the valvetrain as this can also simulate phantom knock. Just for kicks, please drop a can of 4 cylinder Restore in the crankcase and let me know if anything changes.

Let me know what you find,

Andy

 

[Mike Marnik]

well i think it was just acting up or it was rich knock or something not sure. I just installed my safc and 550cc injectors this weekend and i working on getting it tuned right now. My lifters only tick for about 30sec right after i start up. Right now i did a 3rd gear pull and at about 4300 rpm it started to knock and gradually rose to 43 at 5500 and that about where its creeping pretty bad i havent had a chance to add more fuel on the safc yet because its late but i dodnt do any more pulls after that. Tomorrow Im going to add about 4-5% more fuel and make sure the fuel pressure is set right. What pressure should i shoot for ive seen many differnt pressures from 36-39.5 i belive its about 36psi right now. thanks guys

 

[andymoraitis]

Mike,

Re-set the base fuel pressure with the vacuum line off to 39psi and try another pull before messing with the AFC. The reason for this is that when tuning, it's best to change one variable at a time and re-logging before moving on to the next one. When you were knocking, what kind of boost were you creeping to and what correction do you have plugged into the high throttle for the 550's?

I'd love to see a log of your pulls so we can get a better idea,

Andy

 

[Mike Marnik]

I wont be able to get a log uploaded till this weekend. My laptop doesnt have the right plug for the hotsync cable. I have the boost set at 15 psi right now i was looking at rpms at the time but i have seen it creep up to 18-19 psi before so im going to assume around there. i have -17 on the safc right now for hi-throtle. I will reset the fuel pressure tomorrow to 39 and do a pull, and see what that does for it. Is 43 an insanly lage amount of knock for what my conditions were.
Thanks,
Mike

 

[Mike Marnik]

Ok i just went and reset my fuel pressure. When i had origanally set it i left the vacume hose on, and at 36 psi. when i took it off it went up to around 46ish. So i reset it to 39 with it off and with it on it sits at 30 psi. So that means i was running 6psi more that i should of. I havent got to do a pull as i have some school work to do, but driving to a safer parking lot here on campus the car seemed alot more responsive and peppier when i would get on it a little bit. I will see what the logs tell me here in a couple hours.

 

[Mike Marnik]

Great new!!! I did some logs and tuning on the safc and its about 90% tuned now. It only getting maybe 5 counts on the start. i quit for the night because i didnt wanna push it that hard for much longer, but im very very happy with the results. the car hasnt run this strong since i bought it 5 months ago. Also for some weird reason i am not getting any serious boost creep anymore only about 2 psi now threw 3rd gear. Tomorrow i will get it tuned 100%. Thanks for the help i was getting scared i was getting phantom knock (wipes forehead)

 

[andymoraitis]

Glad that worked Mike! Keep in mind that you can still add a bit of fuel pressure to bring the knock counts down to a mximum of three. If your run there, you should see the best performance while still keeping the motor safe. FYI, 43 is the max the knock sensor will read so that was pretty ugly.

I love happy endings!

Andy

 

[Mike Marnik]

Ya i think i may add another psi or so of fuel pressure tomorrow and see how it likes that. right now im seeing 5 counts at a few places mostly on the low end in 1st gear. And i knew 43 was the highest count but wasnt sure if it was possible without blowing the engine up. Thanks for all the help and thanks for sticking in there with me all the way. I might get her out to the dyno here in the coming weeks to get it tuned even better and get a base line on hp before i d any more serious modifications.

 

[andymoraitis]

Mike,

Before you add more fuel pressure, let me know what the knock count is on a third gear pull. It's unusual for a motor to knock in 1st, although running on the lean side will trigger knock in gears above first. I'd like to know knock count with more load on the motor.

Drop us a line after a 3rd gear pull and we'll go from there.

Andy

 

[Mike Marnik]

I did all my 3rd gear pulls from 3000 rpm and it has about 2-3 counts of knock untill 6100 where it goes up to 9 counts untill 6200 where it goes up too 16. I added some more fuel to the 6000 and 7000 range before i called it a night but didnt get any more pull on that. Also it has 4-7 in the 4100-5100 range and i added another 1% there. i think the safc is set to around -6 to -7 from 4k across on the high throttle. I might be able to get some logs posted up tommorw. My friends logger has mmcd and he can get the logs onto the computer.

 

[andymoraitis]

Mike,

Logs would be best since we can look at the data and see things more clearly. Drop me a line when you post them and we'll see what we can figure out.

Andy

 

[kelvinb]

its great to have a nice open highway to do this on too

 

[Mike Marnik]

this is part of the log from tonight. We turned the boost down all the way so to about 9 psi but it creeps up to 16-17 psi as it starts to creep the knock begins to go up. I tried a differnt bunch of settings from really rich to leaning it out and it still does the same thing although the knock hit earlier when i leaned it out. All i can think of now is a boost leak or heat soak? I am getting really really stressed out about this now. When its knocking liek that it is still pulling really hard seems to be even running better. Hopefully you know what up. Also I want to add that a 2nd gear pull I do not get anywhere near as much knock as a 3rd gear pull. Please give any suggestions that will possibly make it get little to no knock.

RPM KNOCK INJ/D
3094 0 7.17ms
3188 0 8.19ms
3313 0 10.24ms
3375 0 12.29ms
3531 0 12.54ms
3625 0 12.54ms
3719 0 12.54ms
3813 0 13.06ms
3969 0 13.57ms
4063 0 13.57ms
4219 0 14.34ms
4313 0 14.85ms
4375 5 15.87ms
4469 5 16.64ms
4719 4 17.41ms
4656 4 18.43ms
4750 3 19.46ms
5000 3 20.22ms
4969 2 20.99ms
5250 2 20.22ms
5344 2 20.48ms
5469 8 19.71ms
5375 15 19.71ms
5563 19 18.43ms
5719 18 19.20ms
5875 31 16.64ms
5875 43 18.18ms
6063 43 15.87ms
6000 43 12.54ms
6219 43 16.38ms
6438 43 12.80ms
6438 43 11.01ms
6531 43 8.70ms
6719 42 14.85ms
6625 43 3.07ms

 

[andymoraitis]

Mike,

I hate to be a pain, but I'd like to see a log with RPM, knock, timing, O2 and TPS. The 43 counts doesn't make sense to me and it's tough to make heads or tails out of this without knowing your correction factor. Where did you have the AFC set when you logged this particlar run?

Let me know,

Andy

 

[Mike Marnik]

Ok just did this pull. The car sat about 1 hour from the last pull I just posted.


TIMA O2-R TPS RPM KNCK
27° 0.00V 4.7% 1188 0
25° 0.00V 4.7% 1156 0
24° 0.00V 4.7% 1125 0
23° 0.72V 4.7% 1125 0
20° 0.76V 4.7% 1125 0
18° 0.76V 5.5% 1156 0
17° 0.68V 12.2% 1281 0
23° 0.02V 16.1% 1781 0
32° 0.00V 16.5% 2844 0
38° 0.76V 16.5% 2906 0
38° 0.02V 16.5% 3031 0
38° 0.68V 16.5% 3000 0
38° 0.70V 16.9% 2938 0
38° 0.00V 17.6% 3000 0
37° 0.00V 18.4% 3000 0
37° 0.00V 18.8% 2969 0
37° 0.06V 19.2% 2969 0
37° 0.74V 19.6% 2969 0
37° 0.62V 19.6% 2969 0
36° 0.00V 23.1% 3000 0
35° 0.74V 25.9% 3031 0
33° 0.76V 85.9% 3094 0
28° 0.82V 97.3% 3094 0
27° 0.82V 97.3% 3156 0
26° 0.84V 97.3% 3219 0
24° 0.84V 97.3% 3281 0
23° 0.86V 97.3% 3375 0
22° 0.86V 97.3% 3438 0
23° 0.86V 97.3% 3500 0
23° 0.86V 97.3% 3563 0
23° 0.86V 97.3% 3688 1
22° 0.86V 97.3% 3719 0
22° 0.86V 97.3% 3781 0
21° 0.86V 97.3% 3938 0
21° 0.86V 97.3% 4031 5
20° 0.86V 97.3% 3969 5
19° 0.86V 97.3% 4188 5
20° 0.86V 97.3% 4250 4
18° 0.86V 97.3% 4219 4
18° 0.86V 97.3% 4313 4
18° 0.86V 97.3% 4375 3
18° 0.86V 97.3% 4406 3
17° 0.86V 97.3% 4625 3
17° 0.84V 97.3% 4688 2
17° 0.84V 97.3% 4750 2
18° 0.84V 97.3% 4875 2
18° 0.84V 97.3% 4906 1
18° 0.84V 97.3% 5000 1
18° 0.84V 97.3% 4906 1
18° 0.84V 97.3% 4969 0
20° 0.84V 97.3% 5094 0
19° 0.84V 97.3% 5188 0
21° 0.84V 97.3% 5281 5
18° 0.82V 97.3% 5344 4
20° 0.84V 97.3% 5469 12
17° 0.82V 97.3% 5531 12
18° 0.82V 97.3% 5563 11
19° 0.82V 97.3% 5719 15
17° 0.82V 97.3% 5719 15
18° 0.84V 97.3% 5813 27
14° 0.82V 97.3% 5844 26
18° 0.80V 97.3% 6125 32
14° 0.82V 97.3% 6125 32
14° 0.80V 97.3% 6156 31
12° 0.82V 97.3% 6156 31
13° 0.82V 97.3% 6219 37
11° 0.82V 97.3% 6406 37
8° 0.82V 97.3% 6406 36
8° 0.82V 97.3% 6500 36
9° 0.82V 97.3% 6531 39
9° 0.82V 97.3% 6563 38
8° 0.82V 97.3% 6719 38

 

[Mike Marnik]

safc settings
1000 -8
2000 -8
3000 -9
4000 -9
4500 -10
5000 -5
6000 -5
7000 -5

 

[Mike Marnik]

safc settings
1000 -8
2000 -8
3000 -9
4000 -9
4500 -10
5000 -5
6000 -5
7000 -5

 

[Mike Marnik]

When i was doing the other runs i set the afc from 4500-7000 at 0 and +5 and it was still getting that crazt knock.

 

[andymoraitis]

Mike,

One more question. Are you on stock injectors?

Andy

 

[Mike Marnik]

oh sorry i havent updated my profile i put my fic 550cc injectors in this weekend

 

[andymoraitis]

I'm not an AFC tuner, so I'm going to PM a great one and see if he can lend a hand. In the meantime, you can reference this guide from RRE:

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/newafcsetting.htm

Andy

 

[andymoraitis]

Mike,

I've taken the liberty of PM'ing Nathan (spyderturbo007) to jump in here and lend a hand. He has an intimate knowledge of the AFC and should be able to help you iron things out, whereas my fuel tuning knowledge lies in different areas.

Let me know how it goes,

Andy

 

[Mike Marnik]

Ok well im thinking im going to start over fresh on the high fuel trims. The ecu also is reading 81 i believe for high fuel trims which means it is pulling out fuel but my logs have been telling me im lean so im am thinking that the ecu and safc is just really confusing the ecu right now and it just needs to start fresh at 100. Also i am going to check and see if the maf is hacked or not tomorrow. The owner before me maf have done so. Looking forward to spyderturbos in put on this i wont be able to touch the car untill around 245 tomorrow so if you can get input in before that as to what im doing on with the ecu and safc.