Water Pump Change, now stalling and cels!!!

[bullstuff]

Ok, my wifes 96 eclipse with the 2.0 non-turbo is driving me crazy. I have been searching and reading and cleaning and unplugging, it is like bad pipe dreams. Anyway, her water pump went out, so I had to take the timming belt off to change it. Put it all back together and it started right up, no problems. She went to work the next day, and called me saying it kept stalling on her. When I get home, the check engine light is on, the call will not stay running, if it does it pulses between 300 and 1000 rpm. It is showing codes 12, 13, 14, 23, 52, 55. Has anyone had a similiar issue? I would think if it was the timing, then the check engine light would have come on immediately? The car has a cold air intake and catback exhaust. If I clean the throttle body with cleaner, then it idles ok, but when I pull the neg. cable to eliminate the cel, it just happens all over again!!! HELP!!!!!

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Those codes are all for the MAP and IAT sensors. Check the connections to each sensor. Check the EGR tube to make sure no wires accidentally melted on it and shorted out.

 

[fulanititoo8198]

Why not just grab a timing gun and make sure that isn't it. At least you'll be for sure it's something else.

 

[bullstuff]

Ok, I checked the timming and it was off. Damnit I thought for sure it would be ok. So I redid the timming, and it is set PERFECT!!! Ok, now the cars is running fine. Only thing, the cels will not clear??? Any suggestions?

 

[DSMcrazy3]

Disconnect, then reconnect the battery.

 

[dr1665]

Why not just grab a timing gun and make sure that isn't it. At least you'll be for sure it's something else.

For future reference, 420As do not make use of a timing gun. Maybe we can use it, but the only sure-fire way to check timing is to visually inspect the timing marks on the cam gears, crank sprocket and oil pump.

 

[mharrison]

Quote:
Originally Posted by fulanititoo8198
Why not just grab a timing gun and make sure that isn't it. At least you'll be for sure it's something else.

For future reference, 420As do not make use of a timing gun. Maybe we can use it, but the only sure-fire way to check timing is to visually inspect the timing marks on the cam gears, crank sprocket and oil pump.

I was wondering about that one.....
While having mine completely disassembled, I didn't see anything that looked like you could put a light on it.

 

[bullstuff]

Disconnect, then reconnect the battery.

Yea, that is not resetting them. Could the car being out of time have ruined all those sensors, or could it be the ecu, or do I need to have the dealer reset this. I am stumped. And as for the timing light, yea, I had to inspect it via the timing marks.

 

[fulanititoo8198]

For future reference, 420As do not make use of a timing gun. Maybe we can use it, but the only sure-fire way to check timing is to visually inspect the timing marks on the cam gears, crank sprocket and oil pump.

OOoo cool

 

[mharrison]

Now that the timing is correct have you read the codes with a code reader to see if they are the same codes?

I think most code readers will clear them if you want to, but if it is getting persistant errors then you won't see that happen.

 

[bullstuff]

Now that the timing is correct have you read the codes with a code reader to see if they are the same codes?

I think most code readers will clear them if you want to, but if it is getting persistant errors then you won't see that happen.

Yea, I read the codes, and it is throwing the same ones. I will have to try a code reader to clear them.

 

[420Adriver]

Yea, I read the codes, and it is throwing the same ones. I will have to try a code reader to clear them.

Autozone can clear the codes for you for free.

 

[dr1665]

You know, it's odd that you would be getting every error for every sensor on the intake manifold. What are the chances of all those sensors failing? I'm not thinking very likely. It could be that you've got a main line connector loose on your harness.

Start disconnecting sensors on the intake plenum, starting with the IAT in the center on the back side. Then disconnect the MAP sensor. Be careful as you go, but follow that harness back to the vicinity of the TB and fuel rail feed line. I'm almost positive there is a big connector there. You may have to pull your intake pipe to see/access it, but it's there. Check to see that it is connected. If it is, go back over the section of harness you just unplugged and inspect it carefully for damage.

It stands to reason that, if that section of the harness was damaged and the ECU lost those signals, it would revert to the safety fuel/ignition trims to save the engine from damage. Since the O2 sensor is actually fucntional in this case, the ECU would get the signal that things are too rich. (When O2 sensor fails, ECU goes into a dummy mode, running rich to avoid detonation.)

This is just a shot in the dark, however. If you reset the ECU by battery and the codes are still there, I doubt Autozone will be able to help you. Something is wrong back there if the timing is done right.

 

[bullstuff]

You know, it's odd that you would be getting every error for every sensor on the intake manifold. What are the chances of all those sensors failing? I'm not thinking very likely. It could be that you've got a main line connector loose on your harness.

Start disconnecting sensors on the intake plenum, starting with the IAT in the center on the back side. Then disconnect the MAP sensor. Be careful as you go, but follow that harness back to the vicinity of the TB and fuel rail feed line. I'm almost positive there is a big connector there. You may have to pull your intake pipe to see/access it, but it's there. Check to see that it is connected. If it is, go back over the section of harness you just unplugged and inspect it carefully for damage.

It stands to reason that, if that section of the harness was damaged and the ECU lost those signals, it would revert to the safety fuel/ignition trims to save the engine from damage. Since the O2 sensor is actually fucntional in this case, the ECU would get the signal that things are too rich. (When O2 sensor fails, ECU goes into a dummy mode, running rich to avoid detonation.)

This is just a shot in the dark, however. If you reset the ECU by battery and the codes are still there, I doubt Autozone will be able to help you. Something is wrong back there if the timing is done right.

I followed all the wires, and there is nothing unplugged or damaged. Code 23 is 5-Volt Supply Output Too Low, so I am wondering where is the 5v from? Could this be too low causing all of the sensors to kick??

 

[420Adriver]

Ok, my wifes 96 eclipse with the 2.0 non-turbo is driving me crazy. I have been searching and reading and cleaning and unplugging, it is like bad pipe dreams. Anyway, her water pump went out, so I had to take the timming belt off to change it. Put it all back together and it started right up, no problems. She went to work the next day, and called me saying it kept stalling on her. When I get home, the check engine light is on, the call will not stay running, if it does it pulses between 300 and 1000 rpm. It is showing codes 12, 13, 14, 23, 52, 55. Has anyone had a similiar issue? I would think if it was the timing, then the check engine light would have come on immediately? The car has a cold air intake and catback exhaust. If I clean the throttle body with cleaner, then it idles ok, but when I pull the neg. cable to eliminate the cel, it just happens all over again!!! HELP!!!!!

I had the map and tps sensor thrown at me at the same time...if your not sure you can always use a voltameter to make sure it is the sensor by checking there output.

 

[Blitzeclips]

I followed all the wires, and there is nothing unplugged or damaged. Code 23 is 5-Volt Supply Output Too Low, so I am wondering where is the 5v from? Could this be too low causing all of the sensors to kick??

I honestly don't think so. You would think with low output, the ECU or a main area would be the problem. Almost as if it is sending out signals from a base area. I would follow what driggs said, it seems like something is messing up in the ECU.

Whatever the problem, I think the ECU may have shitted on ya, or the ECU is the problem altogether. There should be 2 harnesses on Your ECU. Let us know if it is 1 or different... If you have a one harness ECU, then you could have a 95 ECU caught early in the 96 production.. This HAS happened to people before, so it COULD be it... But I don't know.... I'm just trying to throw some ideas out there, at this point you'd be better off checking then not..

 

[DSMcrazy3]

Whatever the problem, I think the ECU may have shitted on ya, or the ECU is the problem altogether. There should be 2 harnesses on Your ECU. Let us know if it is 1 or different... If you have a one harness ECU, then you could have a 95 ECU caught early in the 96 production.. This HAS happened to people before, so it COULD be it... But I don't know.... I'm just trying to throw some ideas out there, at this point you'd be better off checking then not..

Why are you making this sound so improbable? There are quite a few 96's with 1 plug ECUs. Sure, there aren't as many 96's with them as there are 96's with the 2 plug harness, there are quite a few though.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Here's an easy way to check those sensors...

Unplug either the MAP or IAT sensor. Each sensor should be connected to a three-wire pigtail. Using a multimeter with test leads in the pigtail connector, test the voltages coming from those wires. The black/yellow wires should be the ground wires. As for the other two: one should read +5V (or very close to it), and the other shouldn't have a reading at all. (The car keys need to be in the ON position for this to work; the car itself doesn't necessarily need to be turned on.)

If you aren't getting that +5V in both of them, then my money would be on the ECU. If you're getting +5V in one, but not the other, then I'd say it might be the ECU, or more likely, something in the wiring. If you are getting the +5V in both wires, then I'd say replace the sensors and see how everything pans out.

 

[Blitzeclips]

Why are you making this sound so improbable? There are quite a few 96's with 1 plug ECUs. Sure, there aren't as many 96's with them as there are 96's with the 2 plug harness, there are quite a few though.

Oh my bad. Sorry I didn't know how common it was for a 96 to have a 95 ECU. OH , WAIT, thats just the thing, there ARENT as many 96's with the one plug versus the two. Thats why I made it sound so improbable.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Alright Blitz, let's watch the sarcasm...

 

[Blitzeclips]

Alright Blitz, let's watch the sarcasm...

Hey, he started it! Nah I'm just kidding. Sorry if it seems that way...

 

[bullstuff]

It is a 2 harness ecu. I am going to pickup a complete parts gs, so I will start swapping out parts.

 

[Doug99RS]

12 Battery Disconnect
13 No Change in Map from start to Run, 5 volt supply output too low
14 Map Sensor voltage too high, low
23 Intake air temperature sensor voltage too high, low
52 Fuel system rich
55 end of codes

The Key dance codes are ok for figuring out the general area of where the faults could be located bt there's several codes you've listed that have some similarities.

The codes 12, 55 and 52 can be thrown out the window. It's rich because of the other codes we're working with. The 12 and 55 don't amount to anything.

The other three codes are of interest to me. Typically, when you have a code indicating the sensor circuit is high that means the sensor is unplugged or a wire is pinched or something of that nature. I'd like to think at this point you've already verified the sensor is plugged in and you've said you've checked the wiring. So maybe the code 14 is may be sensor voltage too low??

When you first turn the key on, prior to the engine actually cranking over the computer checks barometric pressure using the MAP sensor. This is done to determine ambient pressure since this will have an affect on oxygen content in the air being pulled in. It's another one of those readings like engine coolant temp and ambient air temp that is used to help lower emissions at start up as well as during driving.

The Map sensor gets a reference voltage of "5 volts" (may vary from 4.8-5.1) to it at idle. The signal voltage should be between 0.5-1.8volts going back to the computer. At WOT the voltage should be closer to the reference voltage (3.9-4.8 volts)
So at idle you should have a low voltage reading going to the PCM from the Map sensor.
If you've got a voltmeter you should be able to verify that the 5 volts is there, the voltage changes from start to run and that the ground is present (using the 5volts wire and the ground wire.)

The intake air temp sensor basically works the same way only it uses two wires. 5volts is sent out of the computer and then in to the sensor and the sensor, based on temperature will send a portion of that to ground. The computer basically measures how much voltage passes to ground (by measuring it inside the computer) and then determines ambient temperature.

The common ground here is that both sensors use the same ground circuit to return excess voltage back to the computer to be grounded. In addition both use a 5 volt signal from the computer, which may even be spliced internally so if one sensor doesn't have the voltage then there's no way the other will have it.

I think this goes right along with what VelocitàPaola. Narrowing down some of these codes would easily be done by doing two things. Have the "P" codes retrieved and shared with us and also usign a multi-meter to verify a few readings at key on and initial start up. I really feel the little amount of time to do these things would be alot quicker and cheaper than just thowing a bunch of parts at the car in HOPES that you get it right.
Doug

 

[bullstuff]

12 Battery Disconnect
13 No Change in Map from start to Run, 5 volt supply output too low
14 Map Sensor voltage too high, low
23 Intake air temperature sensor voltage too high, low
52 Fuel system rich
55 end of codes

The Key dance codes are ok for figuring out the general area of where the faults could be located bt there's several codes you've listed that have some similarities.

The codes 12, 55 and 52 can be thrown out the window. It's rich because of the other codes we're working with. The 12 and 55 don't amount to anything.

The other three codes are of interest to me. Typically, when you have a code indicating the sensor circuit is high that means the sensor is unplugged or a wire is pinched or something of that nature. I'd like to think at this point you've already verified the sensor is plugged in and you've said you've checked the wiring. So maybe the code 14 is may be sensor voltage too low??

When you first turn the key on, prior to the engine actually cranking over the computer checks barometric pressure using the MAP sensor. This is done to determine ambient pressure since this will have an affect on oxygen content in the air being pulled in. It's another one of those readings like engine coolant temp and ambient air temp that is used to help lower emissions at start up as well as during driving.

The Map sensor gets a reference voltage of "5 volts" (may vary from 4.8-5.1) to it at idle. The signal voltage should be between 0.5-1.8volts going back to the computer. At WOT the voltage should be closer to the reference voltage (3.9-4.8 volts)
So at idle you should have a low voltage reading going to the PCM from the Map sensor.
If you've got a voltmeter you should be able to verify that the 5 volts is there, the voltage changes from start to run and that the ground is present (using the 5volts wire and the ground wire.)

The intake air temp sensor basically works the same way only it uses two wires. 5volts is sent out of the computer and then in to the sensor and the sensor, based on temperature will send a portion of that to ground. The computer basically measures how much voltage passes to ground (by measuring it inside the computer) and then determines ambient temperature.

The common ground here is that both sensors use the same ground circuit to return excess voltage back to the computer to be grounded. In addition both use a 5 volt signal from the computer, which may even be spliced internally so if one sensor doesn't have the voltage then there's no way the other will have it.

I think this goes right along with what VelocitàPaola. Narrowing down some of these codes would easily be done by doing two things. Have the "P" codes retrieved and shared with us and also usign a multi-meter to verify a few readings at key on and initial start up. I really feel the little amount of time to do these things would be alot quicker and cheaper than just thowing a bunch of parts at the car in HOPES that you get it right.
Doug

Doug,
I really appreciate your, and everyone elses help for that matter. My solution, was to pick up a 200 dollar parts car and go..... First thing to do was swap out the computer. WALLA. It did the trick. The car runs way the heck better, shifts better, and just feels better. Best of all, no check engine lights. The kicker on top, is it was a 420a that had a turbo conversion, so I have a ton of parts to play with, injectors, fuel pump, manifold, downpipe, etc. Thanks again.

 

[Shadow98]

Autozone can clear the codes for you for free.

Just to throw my 2 cents in AutoZone WILL NOT clear the code(s). They will read them, but thats about it.