water in my fuel? possible fixes?

[pazsion]

Car was running just fine...then i got a full tank of gas...it didn't smell right..

Inspecting the plugs #4 has been completely covered in dirty, oily residue.. but it smells like water.. water comes out the tailpipe, steam too..

no water in engine oil, no oil in coolant and no fluid losses.. so she is telling me the head gasket is still intact...

bogs down when full throttle.. most powerful when lightly using pedal...

everything tells me it's bad gas... but no other customers have complained.. i'm going to talk to the manager tommaro..hopefully..

I need my car for work, it's not good to drive her as she sits now.. but i really must do my job... i'm leaveing my company un able to perform their duties at times by being one man short...

Is there anything more i can do? Or anything that would cause similar problems?
Other then not letting it run dry, how can i prevent this in the future?

all i can think to do is run her until there's 1/4 tank and go back to the same place to get more gas... usually the best fuel in town.. but i have noticed it not smelling the same the past 2 weeks...

 

[luv2rallye]

Is your gas cap not sealing allowing condensation to get in? A can of Iso-Heat in the tank will help absorb the water.

 

[Rob32401]

i second the iso-heet.

 

[GsXdSmKingGsX]

Please tell me what water smells like

Use any kind of moisture absorbing fluid that is safe to use with gasoline and bam..Problem solved

 

[gsxboost19]

If your plugs were dirty, it shouldn't be water. I sometimes use water to steam clean engine internals, and the plugs usually come out looking light and clean.

check your O2 sensor, if you dont know how, pm me and i will explain. I have seen them malfunction like you say with throttle response, but not the steam part...

Also, does water always come out the tailpipe when running or just when its warming up?

Does the steam increase when you are just idling rather than when you are driving?

any mysterious oil or antifreeze loss?

 

[pazsion]

thought i should add that it's just the tip of the plug, that in the fireing chamber that is gunked up.. not the whole thing..

i've used iso heat, and ran the car down to @ or below 1/4 tank.. i may need to get more gas and more iso heet..so far i'm able to maintain speed, but it's still not fireing right..water soaks my hand when i cover the tailpipe..still too much water in the lines.. the order is correct, the coil is still good.. removeing wires one at a time only reproduces similar issues when #4 is removed.. and thats a given until that one can run cleanly..I will take the intake off if getting good gas etc doesn't correct the issue.

no, water never came out the tail pipe like this.. even while running hydrogen.. anytime i've gotten water in the engine from that.. it burned it off.. all that is disconnected while i trouble shoot this.. there are no other sources of water, oil added recently...

the gas cap is good, there are no leaks.. it certainly holds pressure.. and is not building pressure.. so everything should be functioning there..

I have not replaced the 02 sensor.. when the car was running for a while it seemed to get more water in it @ idle.. or whenever i used more pedal.. it's coming from the tank or the return line and whatever that's attached too i assume.. if that somehow got filled with water? it would return water to the tank no?

At highway speed.. the check engine light blinks.. 15 and 1 i believe is the count.


would water getting into the intake ever go back or be returned via the fuel / vacume lines?

I don't think that is even possible.. it has to be that something got into the tank.. i have cameras and know my car hasn't been messed with.. so it's the gas i put in it.. or the o2 sensor..?

if a second dose of iso-heet, some good gas, and a new 02 sensor doesn't work what else should i be checking?

 

[Ghostcrafter]

thought i should add that it's just the tip of the plug, that in the fireing chamber that is gunked up.. not the whole thing..

i've used iso heat, and ran the car down to @ or below 1/4 tank.. i may need to get more gas and more iso heet..so far i'm able to maintain speed, but it's still not fireing right..water soaks my hand when i cover the tailpipe..still too much water in the lines.. the order is correct, the coil is still good.. removeing wires one at a time only reproduces similar issues when #4 is removed.. and thats a given until that one can run cleanly..I will take the intake off if getting good gas etc doesn't correct the issue.

no, water never came out the tail pipe like this.. even while running hydrogen.. anytime i've gotten water in the engine from that.. it burned it off.. all that is disconnected while i trouble shoot this.. there are no other sources of water, oil added recently...

the gas cap is good, there are no leaks.. it certainly holds pressure.. and is not building pressure.. so everything should be functioning there..

I have not replaced the 02 sensor.. when the car was running for a while it seemed to get more water in it @ idle.. or whenever i used more pedal.. it's coming from the tank or the return line and whatever that's attached too i assume.. if that somehow got filled with water? it would return water to the tank no?

At highway speed.. the check engine light blinks.. 15 and 1 i believe is the count.


would water getting into the intake ever go back or be returned via the fuel / vacume lines?

I don't think that is even possible.. it has to be that something got into the tank.. i have cameras and know my car hasn't been messed with.. so it's the gas i put in it.. or the o2 sensor..?

if a second dose of iso-heet, some good gas, and a new 02 sensor doesn't work what else should i be checking?

What!?! Not that I can understand most of what you're saying, but that part really threw me.

I find it interesting how many new threads you've been coming up with the last two days, with all these outrageous problems, all on the same car. I'm disinclined to believe...

 

[pazsion]

Please tell me what water smells like

Use any kind of moisture absorbing fluid that is safe to use with gasoline and bam..Problem solved

water smells like oxygen and hydrogen.. and carbon..similar to ozone or o3..it's what gives rain it's own scent as well..thunderstorms and lightning produce hydrogen and o'3 so you smell that and associate it with the smell of a thunderstorm and whatever else is in it..it tends to obsorb other matierals properties as well...water or gas that has sat for a period of time has its own scent..because stuff begins to grow in it...and it's had time to soak up stuff and rust or corrode things or a byproduct from the breakdown of hydrocarbons as well..

tap water smells alot like iron, chlorine,sulfur and flouride..
and various base metals and chemicals..

When water is burned in a car it is much more heavily scented by carbon and oxygen.. i assume.. and takes on a tin like scent. espeacially in aluminum and iron mixed block/heads.. carbon and iron stand out.

filtered water often has little or no scent.. as there is virtually nothing in there..that has a noticeable scent..

 

[pazsion]

What!?! Not that I can understand most of what you're saying, but that part really threw me.

I find it interesting how many new threads you've been coming up with the last two days, with all these outrageous problems, all on the same car. I'm disinclined to believe...

well they all circle around this water in the fuel issue or not fireing on #4
despite the plug fireing.. thats pointless as long as there is stuff in that cylinder smothering the ignition..


only 4 new threads i believe??

one problem i caused and solved.. thankfully they designed the car for such things..but other issues could have spawned from this that i won't know immediately.. so i still seek experiened help..with the mfi circuit.

the bold part i guess is the part that threw you?

I don't have a specific post on running hydrogen on these cars yet.. mostly because it's completely untested..and not even a good design yet, and not advisable on the 420a..
brass valve guide's could corrode.. i have yet to check this.
the aluminum head cylinders could corrode..
the iron block, well that corrodes and becomes pitted no matter what anyone does, unless it's an alloy..or coated heavily in zinc..which reacts with aluminum, iron and water??

Would a zinc additive be bad for the 420a in the first place?

i think the 4g6x have chromoly sleeves? this would be optimal.
repeated exposure to water and various chemicals can do the same thing =c

So it's a particular concern to get water out of this engine and not let it sit there, and repeat this..

I'll need to get a flashlight and look down in there to see if i've burned through the cylinder and just how much crap is in there...maybe even remove it somehow...gotta do that to do a proper compression and leak down test -.-
I hope it's not cracked or burned out Nothing tells me this is the case...
nothing tells me anything else is wrong... except maybe anything to do with ignition and fuel..

WTF

 

[gsxboost19]

I have only messed with hydrogen once on a northstar engine and it was nothing but corrision and problems. I stay away from it.

Zinc however is great for all engines

 

[pazsion]

thx mr boost, how long did it run before you noticed corrosion? cast metals often have a more porous surface over other methods.. but i don't think this block is diffrent? Did you run it straight water unfiltered/un distilled? or use any electrolites? like salt or bakeing soda? both are no no's but accelerate the process..tap water is just no good..

the northstars always used this cast aluminum and cast iron.. i haven't looked into the race versions.. but gm/w/e even used cast-iron sleeves.. to reduce bore size and strengthen things for the super charged versions..

So far i don't think corrosion is my issue..i did exhaustive research and testing with materials and water etc.. but i'm looking into it..

anyone heard of or ever used "dry gas"??

crap, i think either a valve got bent somehow, or the valve seals have gone bad..

I took the oil cap off and listend like i usually do to check for such things.. there is air being pushed out.. normally it's sucked in.. and it sounds like something is bubbleing or something plastic is whacking around too..

and this indicates a bent valve or valve guide has lost it's seal.. or some how the valve is no longer makeing a proper seating...

ugh, time to take the head off... i don't have tools for this anymore =c
definaly don't have money for an entire re-work of the head either.. i hope it's not bent...I hope i can just clean it up and re-seat and re-retain the valve or valves in question...

I don't know how it got bent.. maybe the water in the cylinder froze and smashed into it =c

read another post about somone revving their engine "high" and then running like crap... and their rockers somehow slipped off the valve-stem?

The last time i did a valve job and t-belt change, i was not able to get the crankshaft pulley off... which made it really hard to get the motor in a position to easily work with.. any tips for getting this off if it's stubborn again?

 

[gsxboost19]

haha I have a great way to get the crank pulley off. Get your ratchet in there and wedged up against something and bump the starter. It will come off.

The major corrosion happened in about 8-10 months of constant hydrogen usage. It was after a year that it took out the motor. The northstar engine uses cast iron sleeves with aluminum heads. Hydrogen is very corrisive. Most people that install hydrogen think about water corrosion, but that doesn't play into effect until combustion is complete and hydrogen it combined with the left over oxygen. The hydrogen itself causes pitting and holes in the metal.

To see if you have a bent/unseated valve, make sure the cylinder you are testing is at TDC on the compression stroke, take out the spark plug, and put compressed air into the cylinder. You do it almost just like a boost leak check. If the cylinder looses pressure drastically, something is not sealing. You will get air either out the intake or down the exhaust

 

[pazsion]

jeez, in all the tests i've done, either long-term or short with hydrogen in a sealed chamber with various metals.. and then a combustion chamber of sorts.. the only time i've ever seen pitting or corrosion, was with tap water, metal that contained copper. tin and brass and bronze. almost no corrosion was present when the water was distilled or filtered.. with stainless steel. significantly less with the other metals but in time those broke down. using bakeing soda or salts.. shortend the lifetime of the elements or metals used..and gunked up the tubeing as well..rubber and plastic lost it's elasticity and eventually crumbled.
without electrolytes such as salt and baking soda.. things remained in good condition.

only stainless remained in it's entirety i think 440a it was.. had almost no corrosion regardless. i'm using 430 now..

iron rusted, but it remained superficial. they must have mixed it with other metals or did not care or did not know what quality iron they used.. often there are trace ammounts of other metals depending on manufactureing processes etc..casting as they have it, would be a bad idea. as it's surface is already pitted and contains oxygen and other gasses.

when used with dense oxygen and hydrogen mix..like an acetlene torch.. it would burn through most if not all metals easily.. and it needed to be focused and not diffused..

so far a mist, like that from an injector..or diffused within the intake, which i've been testing for a hydrogen turbine.. will not cause such things.. it burns more quickly, uniformly and completely when paired with gas and other fuels as well..which is why i started using it on my talon. As long as it's burned off, and not allowed to sit for long periods.. it should be safe to use. but as it is i may have to take my head off anyway..so i'll get to check this out. been two years running a hydrogen cell on this motor there should be some corrosion, but usually oil and gas hinder this. If it's significant, or there is pitting on the cylinder head. then i shouldn't use it at all anymore. in any vehicle without proper modifications... i wonder how jesse james's hydrogen speedster is doing.. i wonder if he runs it after his run on the salt flats? he used condensed hydrogen.. which is known to cut stuff up xD


Suspecting that a valve was bent or a guide went bad... i removed the valve cover today, everything seems tight, no valves have come out of their retainers, none appear to not be seating fully..none have hopped off their valve or HLA but!

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s232/pazsion/camgearsoff.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s232/pazsion/camoff2.jpg


this is definately not where i put my timing marks...

the blue squares, hard to see in small sizes.. are where the marks are now..

sorry about the focus and stuff.. it was hard to get the flash in there so the marks could be seen as well without reflection whiteing it all out..

how the heck does this happen? How or why would the belt hop the cam gears..

valves may still have gotten bent.. but so far it doesn't seem to be the case.. this timeing as is.. would open exhaust during combustion... who knows what the intake side is doing =c or what position the crankshaft is in.. not gonna be running her anymore like this.. i'm surprised she even runs!


incomplete ignition and valve opening would allow for water to stay in the cylinder and not be burned off.. i'm just hopeing my head isn't cracked for some strange reason..

something else like the valve guides loseing seals must have also happened for there to be air being pushed out the valve cover as well??

 

[gsxboost19]

it jumped timing? I have never had this happen on a car I have worked on. Normally tho, this happens from a streched timing belt. It gets old and just cant hold tension anymore like it did before, and in a higher torque situation, it will slip

 

[pazsion]

yea the car made a funny noise one morning when i started it, but it ran fine the next two days... it must have continued to slip...

that bubbling or rattling noise, is most likely a broken valve =c bounceing on the cylinder...i remember hearing that same sound in a similar situation with another car.. i really hope not.. lots of things needed to be replaced on that car..

so i'm guessing a good milage to replace the timing belt tensioner is about 60k-130k?
if not everytime you change the belt?

i'm so pissed the shop i went to last time put a star bolt on my motor... now i gotta find a big star toolkit to change my belt or go to a shop...

i don't think i'm ever takeing any car to a shop again...they seem to think they can do w/e they want to do with YOUR car.. the guy that worked on my car left a buncha bolts lose.. probably left the tensioner lose as well as everything else.. i shoulda checked everything and documented it.. alot of other things could have gone wrong and caused injuries etc...

i hope i can still find parts... the next ten years isn't looking good for talon owners unless people start making more parts for it, i hate grabbing parts from the scrap yard.. i have no idea what condition they are in..espeacially stressed materials..like suspension, and engine internals. =c

in 5 years it's technically an antique xD woot less taxes? i'm gonna have to be alot more careful until i can round up a stash of parts for her. maybe even a second talon, i still want a 4wd version. I wonder if anyone's installed an electric motor on the back half ?

 

[pazsion]

still haven't gotten the pulley off...gonna try the 6" extension another thread i read today, suggested to do this...

 

[jonbusa]

Ther is a special crysler harmonic pulley puller u need rent it at autozone take an eletric impact and it will pull it rite off only way to get it off

 

[pazsion]

Ther is a special crysler harmonic pulley puller u need rent it at autozone take an eletric impact and it will pull it rite off only way to get it off

Bufords on broad and hungry spring did a wonderful job on the timing belt job, despite asking for the money upfront! they marked the safe ranges and put it right in the middle, with no loose bolts left behind, they even left the socket i put on the alternater tensioner.. where I forgot it..

they did say the belt was stretched and worn, the tensioner wasnt fully extending...all pulleys and tensioners were replaced..

The engine definately spins up a bit faster too.. so i bet these needed to be replaced a long time ago..

since there is no harmonic balancer on this car... this tool would not, and did not work..

A new ecu , new coil, new plugs, new wires.. and the car fired normally, a key trick got the ecu to not search for timings, and run properly..

stp octance booster, water removers and fuel treatment is added everytime i fill up now.. there is still alot of water in our fuel..

I can't wait to get a megasquirt.. I'm hopeing i can get her pulling throughout the rpm ranges till cutoff as i had her running before.. without haveing to go back and set the mechanical timings to what i had it before.. +1.5 advance on intake and -1.5 on exhaust.. seemed to extend the torque curve beyond 5k for some reason..