WARNING XTD stage 3 clutch/flywheel shimming

[GSX_Dan]

I recently installed an XTD stage 3 clutch and their lightweight flywheel and I did the usual pivot ball shim. This is not my car, and I recommended against this ebay clutch and more importantly the flywheel as DSMs seem to be very particular about the correct step height/dimensions of the components etc. Seems I was right, the fork rubs against the pressure plate at full disengagement and I suspect it is because of the 1.5mm shim I placed behind the pivot ball. The fork doesn't look bent at all and the bellhousing plate is in place. I can see through the inspection window that the fork contacts the pressure place at full release. I made up an extended slave cylinder rod to add some initial pressure and it worked as far as moving the fork away from the PP. At only 1/4 longer it pushes the PP in far enough to make the clutch slip at anything past 1/4 throttle. Now I have to to the whole tranny job again

Just thought I'd point out this fact, that you can't shim your pivot ball with the XTD stage 3 PP, or possibly all of them, as it bulges out way more than all the others I've seen.

 

[jrohner]

So you're saying its bad that you don't need to shim the pivot ball? That sounds more like a plus not a minus. You shouldn't have shimmed it unless you checked it out and actually needed to.

 

[gstryyder]

what he said...^^^

 

[98gst14b]

I have been using XTD's stage 4 PP /w full facing ceramic and have had 0 problems, maybe the problem is in their flywheels?

 

[TSimage]

I recently installed an XTD stage 3 clutch and their lightweight flywheel and I did the usual pivot ball shim. This is not my car, and I recommended against this ebay clutch and more importantly the flywheel as DSMs seem to be very particular about the correct step height/dimensions of the components etc. Seems I was right, the fork rubs against the pressure plate at full disengagement and I suspect it is because of the 1.5mm shim I placed behind the pivot ball. The fork doesn't look bent at all and the bellhousing plate is in place. I can see through the inspection window that the fork contacts the pressure place at full release. I made up an extended slave cylinder rod to add some initial pressure and it worked as far as moving the fork away from the PP. At only 1/4 longer it pushes the PP in far enough to make the clutch slip at anything past 1/4 throttle. Now I have to to the whole tranny job again

Just thought I'd point out this fact, that you can't shim your pivot ball with the XTD stage 3 PP, or possibly all of them, as it bulges out way more than all the others I've seen.

So you are saying your incompetence of installing a clutch kit that actually works 100% OEM with out the need of a shim, for much less than the competition and performs as good and in some cases better makes it bad?

 

[1997_GSX]

So you are saying your incompetence of installing a clutch kit that actually works 100% OEM with out the need of a shim, for much less than the competition and performs as good and in some cases better makes it bad?

Rofl...

 

[92awddsm]

I recently installed an XTD stage 3 clutch and their lightweight flywheel and I did the usual pivot ball shim. This is not my car, and I recommended against this ebay clutch and more importantly the flywheel as DSMs seem to be very particular about the correct step height/dimensions of the components etc. Seems I was right, the fork rubs against the pressure plate at full disengagement and I suspect it is because of the 1.5mm shim I placed behind the pivot ball. The fork doesn't look bent at all and the bellhousing plate is in place. I can see through the inspection window that the fork contacts the pressure place at full release. I made up an extended slave cylinder rod to add some initial pressure and it worked as far as moving the fork away from the PP. At only 1/4 longer it pushes the PP in far enough to make the clutch slip at anything past 1/4 throttle. Now I have to to the whole tranny job again

Just thought I'd point out this fact, that you can't shim your pivot ball with the XTD stage 3 PP, or possibly all of them, as it bulges out way more than all the others I've seen.

Ive never had to shim the ball on any clutch I have installed. I wouldnt even consider it unless it didnt work properly after reassembled. Shimming the ball is just a bandaid for a worn out ball, fork, or other problem.

So you are saying your incompetence of installing a clutch kit that actually works 100% OEM with out the need of a shim, for much less than the competition and performs as good and in some cases better makes it bad?

A little harsh, but funny none the less.

 

[toofast82]

I've read about their flywheels not using proper step height. A friend of mine used the Xtd stage4 in his gsx for two summers and it was probably a low 11sec car. He does need to replace it currently. He also never broke it in at all which may have shortened life. It grabbed really good though. He uses a Fidanza flywheel, not XTD.
Where is the clutch engaging on the pedal?
Have you played with any adjustment on the master cylinder? Can you push the clutch fork towards the master? This would mean that the hydraulic system is bleeding properly.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Do not shim ANY pivot ball before checking the fork position etc with the tranny mated up. I too learned the hard way.

My solution was to grind down my slave rod a good amount and then shim out the slave cylinder itself by about half an inch or more. It is purely a rigged up solution that I could have avoided if I didn't shim that damned pivot ball.

On the bright side I now have almost perfect engagement/disengagement without making the fork contact the PP.

I feel that, here on DSMtuners, there is far too much information on shimming, suggestions all over the place to "shim it just in case" and "shim it if it's a heavier PP". We never really discussed the down sides or possible consequences if it didn't need to be shimmed. I think that it should be a tech article, the whole when to and not to shim deal because any search just brings up things like "my 2600 sucks I forgot to shim", so it gives the impression that you're doing the right thing by "playing it safe" and shimming the thing when doing any clutch job.

Jack and TRE provide excellent information, however that should not be dismissed.

 

[Killa_dsm]

Yeah, the important thing to remember is that if your using a brand new flywheel you don't have to shimmy the pivot ball.

I warned you PieEyedPiper, told you we shouldn't have shimmed yours! But at least you were able to grind down the slave rod to make it work!

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Yeah, the important thing to remember is that if your using a brand new flywheel you don't have to shimmy the pivot ball.

I warned you PieEyedPiper, told you we shouldn't have shimmed yours! But at least you were able to grind down the slave rod to make it work!

I knew you'd come rub it in!

Yeah, the chances of having to shim the ball when using all new components (fork, ball, flywheel, disk, PP, etc) is pretty much zero.

 

[twicks69]

You should never have to shim the pivot ball. That is only a cheapass bandage fix for a different problem of something else out of spec.

 

[92awddsm]

You should never have to shim the pivot ball. That is only a cheapass bandage fix for a different problem of something else out of spec.

I already said that, your getting slow...

 

[twicks69]

Sorry...just woke up, and not fully running yet. I don't remember reading post #7....

You are right...I am getting slow. And old....

 

[anmGST]

Funny my XTD stage two and three in the car in my avatar shimmed something feirce. can was almosty undrivable, First gear hopped and popped SO bad.. I also could not coast in 2nd or 3rd car would jump back and forth.. Sold the car with the stg3 in it and the stg2 is in my basement.

 

[RedTurboEclipse]

Numerous of success stories with the XTD clutches, BUT their flywheels, I hear there was a step issue with it.

 

[Chiefsublime]

Yes, I can confirm that the flywheel step height is an issue. I have yet to be able to use the clutch yet, but after installing it. It will not engage any gears. So with the shifter in any gear you can let the clutch out and the car doesn't even creep forward. There is no clutch engagement at all. I do blame myself for not bringing the flywheel somewhere to have it checked / machined to the correct step height. I did thoroughly look everything over though and they seem to be built to a fair quality standard. Just make sure if you use their flywheel to have it machined before installing.

 

[pauleyman]

Yes, I can confirm that the flywheel step height is an issue. I have yet to be able to use the clutch yet, but after installing it. It will not engage any gears. So with the shifter in any gear you can let the clutch out and the car doesn't even creep forward. There is no clutch engagement at all. I do blame myself for not bringing the flywheel somewhere to have it checked / machined to the correct step height. I did thoroughly look everything over though and they seem to be built to a fair quality standard. Just make sure if you use their flywheel to have it machined before installing.

I don't think that's even possible. Sounds more like a transmission issue. Now if it didn't shift I would believe step height but no movement at all? That's a broken transmission or a broken clutch.

 

[dwb]

It will not engage any gears. So with the shifter in any gear you can let the clutch out and the car doesn't even creep forward. There is no clutch engagement at all.

Can you push the fork into the slave cylinder by hand? If not, check your master cylinder rod position and make sure it isn't extended too far.

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[Chiefsublime]

Well I've done quite a bit of research on the topic. I've also done plenty of clutches. I bled the slave cylinder and even went as far as to remove the slave cylinder completely at which point the clutch should be entirely engaged as there's nothing touching/compressing the pressure plate. With the slave cylinder removed I can start the car in gear since I have the clutch sensor removed and it doesn't lunge forward like it should under normal conditions. When I raise the car up and put it in gear I can spin the rear wheels and the front wheels turn and visa versa. Also with the rear wheels held in place and turning the fronts there is resistance like there should be. Which tells me that the transmission and drive line is doing what it's supposed to do. I could be wrong, but if the step height is too high the clutch disc would not make contact with the flywheel which is how it connects to the engine. If the transmission does not connect to the engine there will be no power transfer. Also you'll be able to move it in gear without the resistance of the compression of the engine. My first thought was that there was something wrong with the transmission. Which is why I performed those additional tests, but if you know something that I don't. Feel free to share your thoughts.
PS it's an all-wheel drive swapped summit, but basically a 1g AWD talon

 

[pauleyman]

Well I've done quite a bit of research on the topic. I've also done plenty of clutches. I bled the slave cylinder and even went as far as to remove the slave cylinder completely at which point the clutch should be entirely engaged as there's nothing touching/compressing the pressure plate. With the slave cylinder removed I can start the car in gear since I have the clutch sensor removed and it doesn't lunge forward like it should under normal conditions. When I raise the car up and put it in gear I can spin the rear wheels and the front wheels turn and visa versa. Also with the rear wheels held in place and turning the fronts there is resistance like there should be. Which tells me that the transmission and drive line is doing what it's supposed to do. I could be wrong, but if the step height is too high the clutch disc would not make contact with the flywheel which is how it connects to the engine. If the transmission does not connect to the engine there will be no power transfer. Also you'll be able to move it in gear without the resistance of the compression of the engine. My first thought was that there was something wrong with the transmission. Which is why I performed those additional tests, but if you know something that I don't. Feel free to share your thoughts.
PS it's an all-wheel drive swapped summit, but basically a 1g AWD talon

I didn't think the flywheel is thick enough to allow a step height that deep. Either way you're pulling the trans. The more I think about it a fully unattached pressure plate has like a quarter inch before it touches the flywheel pads. So the step height would have to be whatever is needs to be (.610 ish) plus like .250 or more. I really don't think it's possible. If it is it will be immediately obvious when you get it apart

 

[Chiefsublime]

Yeah, obviously I do plan on pulling the transmission. Are there any other tests etc. Anyone knows of before I do?

Oh shit, I totally forgot that the transmission is actually a C50PH out of a 91 JDM Galant GSR. Below is a picture with all the info I have on it (that came with the car). The rods/plungers are on the t case, but they appear to be locked in place with a bracket and I was very careful not to touch them. I would think if they did get bumped or something it would still act as if it were fwd, but again I don't know a whole lot about them. The slave cylinder plunger thing shouldn't matter since I pulled the slave off the transmission when I was trouble shooting. I'm still working on my talon currently, but I will update when I get a chance to pull it for further diagnosis.

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