Varying Clutch Engagement [Merged 1-9] bleeding air floor stuck grinding

[BoostInsideTSi]

Okay, folks, for some unknown reason, we're now getting three threads a week started about clutch malfunctions.
The usual cause is that the system hasn't been properly bled.

Have at it.

I put in a used, but in good condition master cylinder, to replace the one I had before with a broken rubber seal. I did not bleed any components, I simply took out the old one, and bolted the new one up. Then I proceeded to fill the reservoir with dot 3 brake fluid. Bubbles rose to the top of the reservoir, then I topped it off after the fluid ran down into the system. I looked at the clutch pedal and noticed it was still sitting on the floor. I tried pulling it up off the floor, but it only went up a few inches. Probably some adjusting that needs to be done with the rod is causing that. Anyway when I pull it up there is quite a bit of resistance, where when I let go the pedal just pulls right back to the floor. I've heard there is a vacuum going on, where with air in the system, it is just pulling that sucker right back. I tried pumping the crap out of the pedal with a friend opening the bleeder valve and I just shoot clutch fluid everywhere.. I Stop after about 50 pumps and put more fluid and keep going, but notice no improvement. Does anyone know what I need to do? Can anyone verify it is the air in the system causing my problem? Thank you,
Mike

 

[twicks69]

This excessive play in your slave cylinder you are talking about...the slave is properly mounted and not moving, right? The rod is loose and moves around alot? Are you certain that the CLUTCH FORK is not damaged and moving around that much also?

With the vehicle OFF, have someone looking underneath at the slave cylinder and clutch fork and watch if you are even getting proper actuation of the slave cylinder when you are depressing the clutch pedal? If yes, then you have a clutch/transmission/TOB issue, or a pedal engagment issue. If you are not getting proper actuation, yet have a strong clutch pedal pressure, your slave cylinder is garbage. If pedal pressure sucks, it will be a slave cylinder or master cylinder issue or air in the hydraulic lines.

The slave cylinder rod should be tight against the clutch fork engagement groove and should not be easily moved when installed properly and bled properly with properly functioning components. You have a problem that needs more answers.

 

[darkiller_666]

The slave itself is mounted correctly, its the rod that has a ton of play. I was pushing it into the slave to bleed the slave when i noticed that it could move all over. Thought this was strange.

 

[twicks69]

YOU WERE BLEEDING THE SLAVE BY PUSHING IN ON THE SLAVE CYLINDER ROD?!?!?

This is NOT how you bleed a clutch line.

Do a search on "how to bleed your clutch" first.

Here is a link:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/search.php?searchid=6193301

If you did it that way, of course there is going to be movement of the plunger with the type of free play that you are talking about. You are doing it all wrong.

 

[Dready]

Ok 1997 Eagle Talon Tsi FWD 63,000 original miles.

I was backing out of a parking spot today and went to shift into 1st and the clutch stuck to the floor and the car stalled out. This is the 1st time this has ever happend...So i tried it again and it did the same thing.

It does not do it while turning left but it is hard to get into 1st gear and sometimes it sticks to the floor in 1st gear..

I looked at the clutch fluid and it was low so i filled it up...Drove it around some more and probelms still persist...the car drives fine but the clutch will stick to the floor in reverse all the time and sometimes in 1st.

Help?

 

[gbradley]

Replace the clutch master and slave cylinders with new units and make sure the system is bled well. I highly recommend using oem parts.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

As stated you need to look at the slave and master cylinder to see which is leaking. If either is leaking, which is a $100 probability, it is highly recommended to replace both at the same time.

 

[eclipsekid187]

chiltons or haynes.

 

[darkiller_666]

Uhm, first to bleed it. I topped of the clutch line and loosened the bleeder screw on the slave. Then i let it "gravity bleed" or drip for 5 minutes while i kept topping off the reservoir. Then i re tightened the screw and had a buddy pump the clutch till it rebuilt pressure. Had him hold down the clutch, then loosened the screw let out pressure and repeat, for over an hour. The only time i moved the slave rod, is after i had pressure in the pedal built all the way, i pushed the slave rod into the Transmission loosened the bleeder screw let out pressure tighten screw and guide it back to original place. One of the threads on here said that is how u bleed the slave. After pressure was built back up in the system, i couldn't even move the Slave rod if i wanted. It was solid with no movement. The pedal feels looser at the top and incredibly hard at the bottom. It used to be the same Resistance through out the whole travel of the clutch. Car still was chirping while tried to start and still slowed the car turning over with clutch engaged.

 

[twicks69]

And you are sure that you have your clutch properly bled, and properly adjusted?

If you cannot engage the clutch after you confirm the two things above, then you may have a couple other issues. Either the clutch is damaged, or you should be measuring your crankshaft for endplay.

Have you drained your engine oil recently and inspected for metal shavings?

 

[darkiller_666]

I have not drained the oil recently. I noticed that the slave rod goes out about 1/4 an inch with clutch engagement. I thought it went into the transmission with clutch engagement. But maybe i was backwards. I went through almost 2 bottles of dot3 brake fluid. Like i said i gravity bleed it then had a buddy help push the clutch and i followed a write up on here for "Properly Bleeding your Hydraulic Clutch" Someone said sumthing about a transmission inspection plate. A plate you can take off to look at the flywheel or clutch or something? Would i be able to check if its the TOB from that? Thank you so much for the help Twick69. I just want to make sure im fixing the right thing.

 

[twicks69]

Wait, you said you only had 1/4" of overall movement from the slave cylinder when you depressed the clutch pedal? You will need to adjust your master cylinder adjustment rod to thread it toward the firewall (toward the master cylinder) a few threads. This will increase the pedal engagement to make it disengage higher off the floor. If the distance of the clutch slave cylinder rod extension increases, you can adjust the master cylinder until you have proper disenagagement. Otherwise, if it doesn't lengthen the throw of the slave cylinder rod, you have a faulty slave cylinder.

As well, I recommended the inspection plate in an earlier post. You won't be able to see much other than the flywheel, but you can make sure that the flywheel is not loose, and you can see if there is any debris on the bottom of the bellhousing (shavings, debris, etc).

Either you still have your clutch pedal adjusted not enough, or you have a dead slave cylinder.

 

[xezerax]

Do you mean the clutch wont disengage? the clutch is always engaged until the pedal is pressed.

 

[nightracer91]

Do you mean the clutch wont disengage? the clutch is always engaged until the pedal is pressed.

Ditto, If you clutch doesn't engage then you've got bigger problems.

 

[Dready]

so when i put it in reverse and start backing out and i turn the clutch stays stuck to the floor..and i have to let it stall out to get the shifter back in neutral...i tried to do the left hand turn thing to check for crankwalk but it did not stick...it does sometimes stick in first tho and i have to stall it out to get the shifter out of 1st gear..

would this be the master and slave cylinder?

 

[ArticNemesis]

so when i put it in reverse and start backing out and i turn the clutch stays stuck to the floor..and i have to let it stall out to get the shifter back in neutral...i tried to do the left hand turn thing to check for crankwalk but it did not stick...it does sometimes stick in first tho and i have to stall it out to get the shifter out of 1st gear..

would this be the master and slave cylinder?

Coby-
Sounds like it might be part of the hydraulic system failing. Do you have any fluid/mess around the area of the slave cylinder or up on the firewall near the master cylinder?

 

[90-GST]

so i had the clutch replaced with a fidanza 4.3, and the flywheel resurfaced. it was running good for the past couple days. i got about 260 miles on clutch and it started up again. the clutch pedal feels fine, i adjusted the clutch pedal again just incase that was the problem.

if i start the car in first gear or reverse, it will not go right away, i will have to release the pedal before it will move. but if i start the car in neutral, it wont go into gear. sometimes it will go into gear, but very rarely, and only long enough for me to reverse it out of the driveway and then it stops and i have to push it back in. if anyone has any insight on this that'd be great.

a friend seems to think it might be crankwalk, which im really hoping it isnt. i know the tranny mount is bad, and makes a clanging when i take off in first gear, which i have poly mounts in the mail, but figured that would be some useful info. i had the clutch done by HTP, a well renowned local shop. while breaking in the clutch, i have taken it to about 3.3k rpm's at most. i have not went WOT either. i searched on here about breaking it in and have went by what i found since i got the car back. if anyone can help, please do.

 

[k2crasher]

Well after your new clutch install, what did they find was wrong with your old one? It really sounds like your slave cylinder isn't disengaging the clutch. Is your pedal pressure still the same? It's not sticking down on the floor or anything right?? I really hope you don't have the dreaded crank walk issue. Also try pumping the clutch pedal multiply times to build up enough pressure and then try to engage it into gear.

 

[90-GST]

Well after your new clutch install, what did they find was wrong with your old one? It really sounds like your slave cylinder isn't disengaging the clutch. Is your pedal pressure still the same? It's not sticking down on the floor or anything right?? I really hope you don't have the dreaded crank walk issue. Also try pumping the clutch pedal multiply times to build up enough pressure and then try to engage it into gear.

they found that the clutch was bonded to the flywheel. im thinking it might be the slave as there is a slight hissing noise coming from what sounds like that area sometimes when i try to put it in gear, but idk. i havent been able to get under the car to check it out yet. we replaced it before the clutch was installed, but the newer one seemed worse than the older one. it also looked like there was a slit in the newer boot, but i couldnt tell for sure. it has been working fine for the past 260 miles after the clutch was installed.

after it first started doing it again i had the car started and was trying at it. after a few min of trying to put it into gear, then looking at something, then trying again, it started to work fine. would go into gear every time. i shut the car off, and went inside for about 15 min. when i went back out, it went into reverse fine, and i was going to pull it back into the driveway because the pedal was engaging too late(due to me adjusting it too far earlier today), it wouldnt go into first. i couldnt push the car back into the driveway because these cars are fat as hell, so i started it in first gear. when i did that, i had the clutch depressed, and i had to release the clutch to get it to go. i depressed the clutch once in the driveway, and the revs dropped like normal, and it came out of gear like normal, but then wouldnt go back into gear after that.

just trying to give as much info as possible because i dont want to spend too much after spending so much already on getting the clutch installed. plus i have ecmlink waiting to go in next weekend, along with poly mounts, and im trying to get the car running and clutch broken in by then.

 

[k2crasher]

air/leaks in the hydraulic clutch could be more common after a install, just a proper re-bleeding of the system could help. The first thing I would check is your clutch fluid and then have a friend or whoever sit in the car with the engine off and pump the clutch petal while you watch the slave cylinder in operation. You may not even have to jack the car up to see this. Make sure it is fully extending on the fork. I am assuming you know it's bolted to the front bottom of the transmission right next to the crossmember. Check those and report back. Should really only take a few minutes to check this. I included a few pic's courtesy of the v###

 

[90-GST]

i didnt get a chance to check the slave because there wasnt anyone around to push the clutch in while i looked at it today. but i did go out and start it up. it worked perfectly when it was cold. i reversed it and pulled it back into the driveway fine. no grinding, clutch felt fine, like nothing was wrong. i let it warm up and went back out, and the pedal felt stiffer for the first 25-35% of the pedal, and then normal. after warming up, it wouldnt go into gear yet again. anyone know what could possibly be causing this?

i also called the shop i had the clutch replaced at and they said there was nothing abnormal about the install. they said they adjusted the pedal, bled the slave, etc. they told me to try adjusting the clutch again, because sometimes while being broken in, the spot of engagement will change. i didnt try it because it was working fine at first. but i really need the car running so i can get to and from work, so any help would be greately appreciated.

 

[BoostdDSM]

i just installed a ACT 2100 clutch with a new fidanza lightweight flywheel. I torqued everything to spec and the clutch worked fine for a few days. I also have a SS clutch line that i bled before i installed the new clutch. I also have a new clutch fork and pivot ball. I DID NOT shim the pivot ball as i wasnt sure if i had to or not. The clutch pedal feels perfect when i can shift fine but when i cant get the car to go into gear the pedal feels different. I looked inside the master cylinder and the fluid is full but it looks as if there is some black liquid inside of it. When the car doesnt go into gear i notice that when i try and pull it into gear with the pedal all the way to the floor the rpms start to drop and the trans grinds a little bit. During this point the pedal feels a little different than before. And then all of a sudden the problem will go away and the car will shift perfectly fine. Do i need to try and bleed the system some more or is the slave or master possibly showing signs of failure?

 

[daygloworange]

You know, this is exactly how my clutch was behaving when my original engine started getting the crankwalk issue. Sometimes it would shift absolutely perfect- like butter. Other times (especially during a lefthand turn) it would misbehave. You might want to look into that if you haven't already. If you haven't even heard of the crankwalk- look into that on the forum. It's a problem with the 2G DSMs. When I finally replaced my engine, the crank had about 3/8" of play in it, and every time I pushed in the clutch it was mashing the crank pulley against the chassis. Eventually, the AC belt jumped and got sucked into the timing belt, which then slipped and destroyed my valves. Fun stuff!

 

[BoostdDSM]

i actually have a fully rebuilt 7 bolt with about 2,500 miles on it so i really dont think its the crankwalk issue, especially because i had just replaced the crankshaft about 100 miles ago because the flywheel bolts were loose, destroyed my clutch and then the bolts snapped off inside the crankshaft, so i already doubt it is crankwalk. It doesnt have any problem shifting when the clutch feels fine even if i take a hard right turn and i do not notice any lose of power. i think i might have to bleed it some more considering i have a full new clutch line and maybe i didnt bleed it enough....

well today i bled the clutch some more and some air did come out of the line. I drove it around for probably 100 miles or so and no problems yet. The clutch pedal also feels a bit stiffer but it feels perfect.

 

[sschambers]

I noticed my car would do this every now and then, especially after driving for a long while in hotter temps...Last summer, I drove down to Pittsburgh during rush hour (bad idea) and it was a lot of stop-and-go traffic. My clutch started acting up like this, it was a pain in the ass to get it in any gear because the engage point in the pedal kept getting closer and closer to the floor. Bleeding it helped me out, but I also came to find out I had crankwalk about a month ago...But I think your problem was in the hydraulic system (air bubbles, like you mentioned).

 

[90-GST]

wondering if anyone has any more insight on this? or any advice on what i can do. the more and more i think about it, the more i think i might have walked.