Varying Clutch Engagement [Merged 1-9] bleeding air floor stuck grinding

[BoostInsideTSi]

Okay, folks, for some unknown reason, we're now getting three threads a week started about clutch malfunctions.
The usual cause is that the system hasn't been properly bled.

Have at it.

I put in a used, but in good condition master cylinder, to replace the one I had before with a broken rubber seal. I did not bleed any components, I simply took out the old one, and bolted the new one up. Then I proceeded to fill the reservoir with dot 3 brake fluid. Bubbles rose to the top of the reservoir, then I topped it off after the fluid ran down into the system. I looked at the clutch pedal and noticed it was still sitting on the floor. I tried pulling it up off the floor, but it only went up a few inches. Probably some adjusting that needs to be done with the rod is causing that. Anyway when I pull it up there is quite a bit of resistance, where when I let go the pedal just pulls right back to the floor. I've heard there is a vacuum going on, where with air in the system, it is just pulling that sucker right back. I tried pumping the crap out of the pedal with a friend opening the bleeder valve and I just shoot clutch fluid everywhere.. I Stop after about 50 pumps and put more fluid and keep going, but notice no improvement. Does anyone know what I need to do? Can anyone verify it is the air in the system causing my problem? Thank you,
Mike

 

[bagged420a]

have you bled the clutch yet? if not i would start there

 

[jm1080]

Did you bench bleed it first or did you just throw it in and pump the pedal to bleed it? Its possible to mess up the internal seal on a brand new master if it isnt bled before installation.

I really dont remember, my uncle installed it for me. What exactly is bench bleed or how do you bleed before installation?

Anyone have a tech article to install as well? I sort of remember watching my uncle to it and it didnt seem hard, but I didnt see what he did from the inside of the car, since 2 people cant fit down there

 

[darkiller_666]

I plan on doing this as soon as it get warm. Hopefully next week. I still find it hard to believe that air in the clutch line would cause the clutch engagement to kill the car in any gear. Including in neutral. The car was a pain to get home like this, seeming how starting it in neutral and trying to shift to first killed the car. Starting in first made the car jump with each turn of the engine. Now it wont start but makes a chirping sound every time it turns over. Hope this helps.

 

[bagged420a]

yea, sounds like more than just air in the lines

 

[loba]

Clutch engagement kills the car? I cast my vote to wiring issue.

 

[darkiller_666]

I don't see how you came up with wiring being a problem. What wiring would make chirping noises from the transmission? Im thinking this has something more to do with the mechanics of the clutch/transmission. Any other ideas? A local dsm nut says its my TOB. Sound like maybe a possibility?

 

[loba]

Think about it - what could possibly kill your car when you engage the clutch. The mechanism for it I mean. Let me explain.

Clutch pedal goes in
Fork pushes throw out bearing into pressure plate
clutch disc spins freely

I don't see where in there the engine could be dying. So I cast my vote to a wiring issue because it makes more sense than the clutch engagement killing the engine. Unless the flywheel is loose and when you engage the clutch it moves around and catches the starter, killing the engine? But that's a bit of a stretch.

 

[ilco187]

i think a seized TOB and the chirping/chattering is probably the metal to metal contact between the TOB and clutch fingers.

also it may be the reason the car dies since the TOB cant spin and from the force of pressure it kills engine.

 

[twicks69]

I would say it is more likely an issue with clutch disengagement, clutch hydraulics, or a damaged transmission where you have two gears engaged at the same time, or it is bound up for other reasons.

I would say it is NOT a wiring issue.

I would inspect the clutch master and slave cylinder, lines, for leakage or damage. It sounds like a blown master cylinder o-ring on the piston (either you will need a master cylinder rebuild kit or a replacement master cylinder). Otherwise, you have a corroded hard-line, or a split soft-line for the hydraulic line that goes from the master cylinder to the slave cylinder.


If the transmission was fine before this happened, look at the clutch hydraulics.

It will likely be one of the following parts requiring replacement if bleeding the clutch hydraulics does not fix the problem:
*Adjust clutch pedal and master cylinder rod
*Replace clutch master cylinder
*Replace clutch slave cylinder
*Bent clutch fork (will require transmission to be removed to inspect and replace).

I am leaning towards clutch hydraulics. Bleed the clutch properly first.

 

[Got Boooost]

Hey guy,

i recently rebuilt my motor and when i put the motor and tranny back in the car i had no problems with the clutch. (i did install a fidanze flywheel and act 2600 with the rebuild). i pulled the motor out again b/c i need to replace to water pump and Timing belt and had to put the rear engine plate back between the tranny and engine (i forgot to install this the first time) i also installed a new slave cylinder.

now everything is back in the car and the car is running but the clutch wont engage, i cant get it into gear. ive bled the clutch lots and im not sure why its not engaging

does anyone have any suggestions?

thanks for the help.

Vern

 

[darkiller_666]

I didnt think it was wiring. Ive spent over 8 hours re-wiring everything I could. The transmission was perfect in it before this happened. It went from just to fine to happening while I was driving it. It was harder for it to go into gear right before the clutch started killing the car. As in the clutch would need more movement to engage. It started grinding trying to go into gear and the top half of clutch movement felt less stiff.

Otherwise, you have a corroded hard-line, or a split soft-line for the hydraulic line that goes from the master cylinder to the slave cylinder.

How would i check these? I plan on bleeding clutch line as soon as its warm and likes to know what to look for in the mean time.

 

[twicks69]

It sounds like your clutch master cylinder. Replace this first.

Corrosion on the hard lines? Look for rust on your hard lines or fluid leakage along the hard lines.. It is pretty straightforward.

 

[NExStreetRacer]

I take it that wou actually had the clutch out of the car according to the above. When you had it our did you notice anything strange other then the bolt? My AWD did the same thing and what it was, I broke one of the springs in the friction disc and it wouldn't allow the pressure plate to colapse.

Here is a little hint. For proper clutch adjustment goto jackstransmissions.com . If you have access to a decently sized pry bar, jack the front of the car up since it is FWD, have a buddy in the car, with the car running use the prybar and try to move the clutch for further, if it does not move you have internal clutch problems, if it does there is a possibility that the stock rubber line is expanding, defective master. (I work in a shop and we get defective master and slave cylinders on a weekly basis.)

Hey my master and slave and a new line are all new if its the clutch i would just take the tranny off and put a new one in so is it the clutch?

 

[nfernotalon]

Check the clutch disc it sounds like your springs fell out, that happened to me like 3 times with different discs.

 

[Srt4RacerDave]

Sounds like a problem I had. I did a clutch job with a new pivot joint, kept my clutch fork. Turns out I had to readjust the push rod behind the clutch petal under the dash. Clutch pedal felt soft, and I couldn't shift into any gears. It's worth checking into IMO.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

I would check 2 more things. The clutch fork may be worn or the ball that it rides on...Had this happen on a transmission in my FWD N/T I had. And, I would also check to see if your clutch pedal assembly has slack in it. The way to check this is to put the clutch to the floor, then release it. Then put your foot behind the clutch pedal and pull it towards you slowly. If it moves, you may have to weld the pedal assembly to the shaft where it has a nut holding it on. I also had the same problem in my N/T. I got it welded and never had a problem after that

 

[darkiller_666]

Is there a way to check the Master and Slave cylinder before I change them. Id hate to spend money on them just for it to be the TOB.

Does the TOB just stop working or it would be a gradual thing? Ive read quite a few other posts with similiar symptoms most of them being the Clutch cylinders. I am going to bleed the system and check the Cylinders for leaks. Is there any other way to tell if there bad then just leaking?

 

[twicks69]

Is there a way to check the Master and Slave cylinder before I change them. Id hate to spend money on them just for it to be the TOB.

The clutch pedal problems you are referring to, would ONLY happen because of the master and slave cylinders.

You said that the clutch pedal had no pressure and just stuck to the floor when it sat for a while? That is CLUTCH MASTER CYLINDER written all over it.

Clutch disengagement issues? CLUTCH MASTER CYLINDER issues.

Personally, it is in your best interests to install a new clutch master cylinder and clutch slave cylinder. If you are too cheap for them, well...then you are going to have problems.

I gave you the answer that fixes the problem.



Master cylinders are around $50.00.
Slave cylinders are around $30.00.
Throwout bearings are $25.00.
Brake fluid is around $4.00.

Proper working clutch hydraulics? Priceless.

 

[darkiller_666]

I guess i will start with the bleeding the system. The the Master, then the clutch, and hopefully not the TOB. The cylinders i can do myself, but im assuming its not exactly easy to change a TOB with no garage, no jack stands, no lift, and no tools. Thank you very much Twicks69

 

[twicks69]

Umm yeah. You need to remove the transmission to get to the throwout bearing, so a garage, jackstands, good jack, and tools are a necessity. Preferably access to air tools as well. It usually takes around 8-10 hours your first time to do the job. I have done it so many times it is usually around an hour to pull, and another 1 1/2 hours to get it all back together. Maybe someday, I will have it down to an hour flat total.

Do the clutch hydraulics, and inspect the clutch master cylinder and slave carefully. You will want to have an 8mm, 10mm, 12mm and 14mm wrenches at the minimum, along with Metric sockets and a 3/8" ratchet to do the job you are intending on doing.

Be sure to inspect the master cylinder rod an see how much the rod is threaded into the receiver on the clutch pedal assembly. When you pull the rubber dust boot off of the master cylinder under the dash, and brake fluid comes out, you know that it is blown. It can still be dying even if it isn't visually leaking as it uses two o-rings on a piston, and the o-rings can be degraded, allowing air to get into the hydraulics.

As well, throwout bearings rarely seize; they usually die and separate into several pieces. You can use the flywheel inspection plate on the bottom of the transmission to see if there is any debris on the bottom of the bellhousing inside by the clutch/flywheel assembly. This would require your car in the air on jackstands or a lift, and three bolts removed to pull off the inspection plate tin.

 

[darkiller_666]

Thank you so much. I plan on doing this all Thursday and plan to report back.

So i went to bleed. Didn't have enough time to finish it, so i plan on finishing today. Some things i noticed: The rod to the slave cylinder has what seems like to me an excessive amount of play. I can move it a few inches up and down in and out and side to side. Is the slave rod supposed to have a lot of play? I had the clutch bled enough to stay off the floor. When i tired starting, it still felt like the engine was getting held up and made the chirping noise. If i tried holding the clutch while starting, it seemed to be held up worse. It turned over way slower with clutch engagement I any gear. Im going to bleed it again.

 

[jm1080]

No offense, but I just dont get why you would bleed it before installing the clutch master cylinder? If there is no fluid in there to begin with? I did read it by the way, maybe Im just confused?

This is all we did:

Clutch Master Cylinder

Don't see nothing about bench bleeding there. After, we bled it like usual, someone inside the car and the other bleeding under the car.

 

[UGOT8UP]

Bench bleeding will make bleeding on the car go much faster and eiser. And yes you have defective part, not uncomon from parts houses. they should take the part back with no recept, they should have your phone number and name of file there for warenty use.

 

[jm1080]

I see, I just dont get how you bench bleed a brand new clutch master cylinder, if there is no fluid in there. Do you add fluid and to the master cylinder and bleed the master cylinder by pushing rod in as if it were the clutch? Im assuming you can do that with one person right?

Also Im not sure where I bought it. I checked advanced auto parts where I usually buy and all other stores including internet and it is not found anywhere! WTF makes me pissed, I guess I have to buy an oem one.

 

[Detroit98GST]

Bench bleeding is just feeding the clutch fluid into the cylinder and pumping it through before you hook it up into the system. One way of doing it is by hooking it up to the reservoir and use your hand to pump the rod to bleed it before installing it completely. Remember not to let the reservoir go dry or you'll have to start from scratch. By doing this you will a) make bleeding the entire system easier/faster b) show you any possible problems with your new/re-manufactured master & c) be easier on the master itself preventing possible breakage from too much air in the system. Hope this helps.