Upgrading to EVO III

[MyBeatGSX]

The way I see it, why crawl through the window when you can walk through the front door?

Amen


larsrya8, how many Evo 3's have you PERSONALLY seen in the 350hp range? We've had about 5 recent topics where people were extrememly proud of themselves for making 300hp with one. Why be proud of 300 if this turbo does 350 with ease?

Another thing that I've never brought up in any Evo debates, but I'll hint at it now, is turbine efficiency and flow. No one considers how much more backpressure an Evo 3 makes at 20psi compared to a 50 trim at 20psi. The Evo is working its nut sack off to make 20psi even on a stock motor, never mind a motor with cams. This means that LOTS of exhaust is having to go through the turbine and very little is getting wastegated. Compared to a 50 trim that is comfortably making 20psi stock or with cams, much of the exhaust is being wastegated around the turbine. This yeilds significantly lower backpressure, more power, less knock, etc.

Just one more thing the ignorant DSM community ignores with turbo sizing.

It should be rather easy to achieve with the use of water or methanol injection.

If "if's" and "but's" were candy and nuts....

A lot of things SHOULD be easy to do in theory, in reality... not so much. Life has a way of not meeting the expectations and assumptions you make in your mind. Not to mention the fact that physics say you can only flow so much air through a 2" hole...

 

[gixrman]

It should be rather easy to achieve with the use of water or methanol injection.

Thats because your compinsating for all the hot air your now pushing becuase the comp. effinency is in the shitter. Its like saying its easy to make 350 on a 14b with a 100 shot of NOS.
I'm running the e16g w/ WI and love the street manners, it lets you scare the crap out of most street cars but like someone said it gets old quick and makes you want more. Why be content with 350?

The e16g is the gateway drug for experimential 4g63 drug users.

 

[Slow99x]

If anyone had noticed that the original post said "350+". This would imply that there is a desire to exceed 350whp. This is the reason for my post. I agree that this goal would be working the crap out of the e16g and would ultimatly lead to an early death. So for those who say that the e16g is more cost effective, FP3052 at 27psi daily driven on 110 octane, 400+whp, 11.8@117 on a street tuned S-AFC purchased in January of 2004 for around $2000 roughly. Where is your cost savings when to get these numbers you might be replacing the turbo every year or so or you might be replacing drivetrain parts due to the low end torque and hard launches required to pull these numbers? Of course there are exceptions that someone is bound to throw in there but in general, most DSMers will never be able to pull it off.

 

[larsrya8]

larsrya8, how many Evo 3's have you PERSONALLY seen in the 350hp range? We've had about 5 recent topics where people were extrememly proud of themselves for making 300hp with one. Why be proud of 300 if this turbo does 350 with ease?

Striving for a horsepower number is awkward, since you can get many different horsepower numbers depending on which dyno you go to. I prefer airflow numbers and track times myself. As for actually seeing these Evo3's, I don't know any DSMers personally. There are a lot of DSMLink logs from people running Evo3's and 50-trims. The information I've gleaned from those logs is shown in my previous post. The difference between what the turbo "should do" and what it "actually does" is shown best by the Evo3. When Slowboy did their turbo tests, the remarked that the turbo just kept going, despite pushing what must have been hot air. The Evo3 turbo is just well designed. It is also very durable, and a direct bolt-on. The bolt-on Garrett/Mistu hybrids aren't all of such a high quality, and are definitely more expensive.

I think the reason most Evo3's are at the 300HP level is because those cars aren't using the right tuning tool. The S-AFC is a horrible tuning tool for anyone trying to make any serious power increase over stock. You can only trick the ECU so much before you run into knock, weird timing curves, and other undesirable side-effects. Most of the Evo3 + S-AFC cars are running these two because they are both very cheap and recommended for beginners. The Evo3 is capable of flowing enough air to run over 350HP. You just need the right tuning tool to make it happen. You don't even need cams, an intake manifold, or a ported head.

If you're worried the Evo3 will start getting old, don't even bother with a 50-trim. It's only a small step up from the Evo3. Get a 60 trim or a 60-1. That will keep you satisfied for a while.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

You could state many of those same caveats about 50 trims not making max power...tuning methods, etc etc. For the OP who says he wants to make 350+ whp, it's just easier starting with a turbo rated at 450 with his mods. Plain and simple. 50 trim is priced at a premium for a reason. Well worth the extra $ in my opinion.

 

[BISHILVR]

"If you're worried the Evo3 will start getting old, don't even bother with a 50-trim. It's only a small step up from the Evo3." Your completely right. And I enjoy the quality of the mitsu turbo compared to the others, its a very well proven design that has seen it all and keeps going.

 

[Slow99x]

The true Garrett ball bearing turbos are as durable as the Mitsu turbos if not more. Just like dealing with a reputable distributor for a "true" MHI Evo III 16g you must do the same for the Garretts. As for the bolt-on style, Forced Performance does a great job of making their own housing to bolt to a stock manifold. The whole point of my post earlier was to save someone the pain (in the wallet) of playing the turbo upgrade game when they are looking for hp numbers that are at the upper end of the spectrum of the e16g.

 

[compression]

i bet im making close to 350whp on my evo 3 16g, at 27 psi with a splash of race gas zero knock 650cc injectors chipped eprom maft and afc, i accually borrowed my friends 50 trim garret setup, manifold external wastegate and turbo, and i couldnt wait to go back to my evo 3 16g, went to the track and ran a [email protected] (missed second but best mph) and a 12.90@105(missed fourth) even if i didnt miss fourth i still doubt it would have run better then my old setup there is just too much time in between shifts where the car has to pick itself back up off of the ground, i will be honest when it does spool it pulls well but not enough to make it worth giving up nearly ALL of my low end torque and power, im on stock cams , stock intake manifold too.and to be honest with you i get about 500 rpms more top end then i do with the evo 3 but i lose 500 from the low end .


http://www.slowboyracing.com/downloads/dyno graphs/Evo-III-16G/E316G Tubular vs. Cast.JPG

 

[compression]

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[MyBeatGSX]

i bet im making close to 350whp on my evo 3 16g, at 27 psi with a splash of race gas zero knock 650cc injectors chipped eprom maft and afc, i accually borrowed my friends 50 trim garret setup, manifold external wastegate and turbo, and i couldnt wait to go back to my evo 3 16g, went to the track and ran a [email protected] (missed second but best mph) and a 12.90@105(missed fourth) even if i didnt miss fourth i still doubt it would have run better then my old setup there is just too much time in between shifts where the car has to pick itself back up off of the ground, i will be honest when it does spool it pulls well but not enough to make it worth giving up nearly ALL of my low end torque and power, im on stock cams , stock intake manifold too.and to be honest with you i get about 500 rpms more top end then i do with the evo 3 but i lose 500 from the low end .


http://www.slowboyracing.com/downloads/dyno graphs/Evo-III-16G/E316G Tubular vs. Cast.JPG

50 trim spools too slow on a 2.0L... you people kill me. You don't even know what a low spooling turbo is.

And guess what, even in your exaggerated worst case, the extra torque at 6,000rpm is making 5x more power than the extra torque at 2,500rpm. Not to mention the fact that the tach will never even see <4,500rpm when you're going WOT. If you like to lug the engine WOT at <3,000rpm, you shouldn't even be driving a turbo car. Extended full boost at very low rpm = knock knock knock BOOM.

Let me ask this again. How much time do you spend below 3,000rpm when going fast? ZERO. Even a non-ball bearing 50 trim is a quick spooling turbo compared to what's out there. You guys need to get out of your DSM houses and go see the world. Try an HX35 on a 1.8L... how fast do you think that spools? Does it even matter? Nope, because once you're rolling, its pulls like you're being towed behind an F-15.


Yea and I normally don't take adivce from people that drive around with horribly frayed oil feed lines. Nothing personal...

 

[bmwisthekey]

The oil feed line isnt frayed, its the little bit of heat wrap on the end of it thats frayed......

 

[compression]

50 trim spools too slow on a 2.0L... you people kill me. You don't even know what a low spooling turbo is.

And guess what, even in your exaggerated worst case, the extra torque at 6,000rpm is making 5x more power than the extra torque at 2,500rpm. Not to mention the fact that the tach will never even see <4,500rpm when you're going WOT. If you like to lug the engine WOT at <3,000rpm, you shouldn't even be driving a turbo car. Extended full boost at very low rpm = knock knock knock BOOM.

Let me ask this again. How much time do you spend below 3,000rpm when going fast? ZERO. Even a non-ball bearing 50 trim is a quick spooling turbo compared to what's out there. You guys need to get out of your DSM houses and go see the world. Try an HX35 on a 1.8L... how fast do you think that spools? Does it even matter? Nope, because once you're rolling, its pulls like you're being towed behind an F-15.


Yea and I normally don't take adivce from people that drive around with horribly frayed oil feed lines. Nothing personal...

its heat rap idiot.

i usually dont take advice from jackasses with no 1/4 times or dyno sheets next to their name sorry

i am sharing my experiences what experience do you have with anything larger then an evo 3 16g on your car and if any you need to update your mod list. and so the turbo fully spools at 4k rpms your telling me that if im at 4k rpms i mash the gas the boost is just there? no regardless it takes time to build pressure. and where did i say it was the slowest spooling turbo in the world i didnt, i just said that it was slow compared to the evo 3 16g which it is.

 

[DSMunknown]

Brian, I am glad to see your Lancer Evolution VIII fuel pump is holding up so well to your demands.

 

[compression]

yes thank you it is.

 

[dalatinromeo]

I agree with both Slow99x and MyBeatGSX. I'm behind you guys 100%.

If you are only looking for 250-300 whp go EVO3 16G. If you looking for 350+whp go with the 50 trim. You always see people asking for a recommendations on a turbo upgrade, and you always have people saying EVO 16G!! EVO 16G!! EVO 16G!! EVO 16G!! Then you have someone saying SLOWBOY hit 400WHP with the EVO 16G. Yes they did, and ShapeGSX has a fast time with a 16g(impressive time by the way ); but the average DSMers aren't going to make those numbers or times. They AREN'T. Then they come back a month later with the post DAMN I should have gone bigger then the EVO3 16G.

I am not bashing the EVO3 16G, its a great street turbo; but it is truly overrated on this board.

Now for the OP:

I would have went with a 3" DP, but you installed it so it's kind of late unless you plan on getting a new DP. I would have also went with the the Aeromotive AFPR. And if you plan on going with a turbular manifold go with one with a life-time warranty(Full Race(most expensive) or SLS(great price)). Since you are getting DSMLink go with 950's or 1000's, you won't ever need to upgrade them again.

And if you haven't figured out from the beginning of my post, I recommend not going with the EVO3 16G and going with a 50 trim, preferrably BB. PTE 5031RE is a great turbo.

Hope I helped a bit, stay boostin

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Ah, ghetto heat wrap, my bad. I didn't look close enough... I was really hoping no one would be that dumb...

What do I need a 1/4 mile time for? Since when does E/T = driver knowledge? I built an Integra that went high 11's at 124mph... 124 > 110, that must make me more intelligent than you, so you should listen to what I'm saying (oh btw, 35R on a 1.8, how fast you think that spooled?). Its not my fault there's no tracks in the area, and if there was, why would I waste my time amd money running with this glorified T25?


Big(ger) turbo experience? On my DSM? I have none. I have plenty with other peoples' DSM and my Hondas.

I just don't understand the facination with instant spool at the cost of power and ease of tuning. Why is it so important; what do you need it for? Is it so you can beat the yellow light before it turns read, or to keep that guy from cutting you off? I just don't get it. Come on, what are we, tuners or Motor Trend editors that think even a 1.8T Jetta has too much lag? "Oh but it's not a good daily driver if its laggy." Why not? Where are you going with 25psi at 2,500rpm? Why do you need 100% of your boost available instantly on the STREET? If its simply YOUR PERSONAL PREFERENCE to have a no lag turbo, then go enjoy yourself. But don't recommend undersized turbos to others, especially new people that will just get frustrated with the difficulty to make power and go sell their cars or come on here complaining.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Hell yes, 5031RE is where I'm going. Unless I go 57 trim since it's the same price. Btw, spool on the former can't be too much slower than a 16G. It's like 3500.

and so the turbo fully spools at 4k rpms your telling me that if im at 4k rpms i mash the gas the boost is just there?

It is for me, I have a built a/t...

 

[compression]

how about this when me and bmwisthekey race he has a small 16g and when we go he spools and gets a hell of a jump by the time i spool hes 3 or 4 cars ahead of course i catch him eventually but nothing like you would expect "a highway monster" and how are you going to directly call me out? i was spreading some knowledgeable information i never said that this turbo is better then this one, i never called you out. relax ffs

 

[daren_p]

50 trim spools too slow on a 2.0L... you people kill me. You don't even know what a low spooling turbo is.

And guess what, even in your exaggerated worst case, the extra torque at 6,000rpm is making 5x more power than the extra torque at 2,500rpm. Not to mention the fact that the tach will never even see <4,500rpm when you're going WOT. If you like to lug the engine WOT at <3,000rpm, you shouldn't even be driving a turbo car. Extended full boost at very low rpm = knock knock knock BOOM.

Let me ask this again. How much time do you spend below 3,000rpm when going fast? ZERO. Even a non-ball bearing 50 trim is a quick spooling turbo compared to what's out there. You guys need to get out of your DSM houses and go see the world. Try an HX35 on a 1.8L... how fast do you think that spools? Does it even matter? Nope, because once you're rolling, its pulls like you're being towed behind an F-15.


Yea and I normally don't take adivce from people that drive around with horribly frayed oil feed lines. Nothing personal...

Do you have any real proof of this, like Brian said have you actually run a larger then evoIII turbo to know how it acts or are you just going by what you read on the internet? Brian was stateing real world experience & I don't think he was bad mouthing on the 50 trim, just simply saying what he found & that personally it isn't the turbo for him. While you say, why worry about spool when you are racing because your always over 4000 rpms which is above where it normally spools on a 3rd gear pull from low rpms, the turbo still needs to recover after the shift. While the boost is almost back instantly with the evoIII a std bearing 50 trim won't be as responsive even if you are above the normal spool time. Now if you talking about a BB "50 trim", thats a whole different story as they are claimed to recover basically as fast as an evoIII would but that wasn't the type of turbo he was refering too.

And no, Im not hating on the "50 trim" either, as I plan on running a BB version in the spring.

 

[compression]

Thank you

 

[gixrman]

Brian did you flip your comp. housing so it points down (don't see a j-pipe). I did mine and hav'nt seen anyone else do it.

 

[BISHILVR]

You guys act like everybody drives around the whole time at wide open throttle and 7000 rpm. Not so, most of us drive the cars on the street at least 50% of the time and for that the evo3 is the obvious winner. Great street manners, long life, proven dependability, good power, and still a threat at the track is what makes the evo3 an instant winner.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

These blanket statements are ridiculous. Everyone has different goals and price tolerances. For example, Evo3 is too small an upgrade for me to justify its cost, not to mention I want 400+.

OP wants 350+ with his supporting mods. It's easier with a 50 trim therefore the Evo3 is no "instant winner".

 

[BISHILVR]

No its YOUR blanket statements that are ridiculous! The evo3 is an instant winner, look at the sales my friend! Plenty of people love the evo3, in fact I would say that more people like the evo3 than the 50 trim anyday, again look at sales.

 

[BISHILVR]

"Evo3 is too small an upgrade for me to justify its cost, not to mention I want 400+." Once again, this post IS'NT ABOUT YOU! its about the original poster and what HE wants to do. If you dont like it start YOUR OWN post. The original poster wanted to know if he can reach 350hp on an evo3 and the answer is YES period! Its a yes or no answer not what you do or what you would do or anything else pal.