Two part turbo question involving Turbo selection and garrett BB vs. BorgWarner ET

[russman]

Normally I can find what I'm looking for when I search the forums but I seem to be having trouble finding the following.

Part One>
I'm looking for the best designed (longevity / durability and fastest spooling) turbo for my 97 eagle talon in the 330-375HP range. It seems that most of the ball bearing turbo's are for larger applications and understandably so, but I want spool times as close to my stock T25 as possible. I know the t28's spool pretty fast but have boost creep problems and there life expectancy isn't the greatest. Anyway, again I don't want a turbo rated for up to 550HP+ and then set my boost low to get around 350HP; I think it would be a waste spooling something larger than I want. I'd also love to have it bolt directly to my ported Mitsubishi exhaust manifold.
Example: Garrett GT28RS (disco potato) looks like a good option but a little low on HP (want around 350) and the exhaust manifold takes a T2 exhaust manifold flange...
PS: I always see the stock exhaust turbo flange refered to as Mitsubishi flange or T25/T28/16g/20g flange, and then there are T3 and T4 so what is the stock technically called? T2? (I'm sure I could find this one if I searched more

Part Two>
Bullseye-Power – BorgWarner Extended Tip technology vs. Garretts ball bearing technology.
I called there plant to ask them some questions and they claim that because of their new weight reduced compressor wheel they can spool as fast as the ball bearing equivalent and they are quality designed to last longer. He also said, "They use homemade cutting edge technology with this series turbo created in early 2000 and 2001. Most other manufacturers are using technology from the 80's and early 90's."
I then spoke to a tech at Slowboyracing and he said that's a croc of shit basically ball bearing spools faster and lasts longer bar none. He then recommended the SBR ball bearing 50trim instead of the Bullseye-Power BorgWarner S200 Mitsu Bolt On I called asking about.
Does anyone have experience with garrett ball-bearing and BorgWarner Extended Tip technology?

 

[brute]

Garrett's GT series are very modern designs. The ball-bearing unit is very robust and arguably stronger than thrust bearing center sections. The GT wheels are designed to be used with the ball-bearing CHRA. The older wheel technology (like the 50-trim wheel) has been around for a long time. People have just been fabbing them up to ball-bearing CHRAs.

This, in my opinion, is kind of worthless. If you're going ball-bearing, go with a GT-series wheel set that has been designed for that application.

The BorgWarner Extended Tip is a very promising new design. Steve93Talon has first-hand experience with the 50-trim one, as does Martin from VIP Garage. It sounds like a pretty awesome set-up, however, the price tag is what turns me off. Here's an excellent thread about the Extended Tip line.

For your goal, I think most of the turbos you mentioned would be overkill. Your goals are right on the edge of the Evo III's potential, but it can still be done. You can also look into Forced Performance's Big T28. Both of these turbos are fast spoolers, and sound like you'd like them.

For what it's worth, the T2 flange is used on a lot of stock turbo cars like the 300zx TT. So, for these cars, obviously the T2 is direct bolt-on.

 

[gy2005]

You're asking vendors that are both interested in selling their own products so you're gonna get a skewed answer from both. For that horsepower range, I hate to sound repetitive since I've seen this response so much, but with cams and an intake manifold, an evoIII turbo would be fine and it would take a lot of abuse. Spool up isn't going to be as good as the T25, but what is?

If it were me, I'd go for the bolt-on S256 since it'll have decent spool being in the small turbine housing and you probably won't be happy with 330-375 HP after awhile. But spool still won't be even close to the T25

 

[brute]

But there's nearly an $800 difference between the S256 and the Evo III.

 

[russman]

I'm getting the responses I expected but not what I'm looking for. FYI - I'm switching to a 6bolt head/intake real soon but I don't want to up my cams just yet I want as little lag off the line as possible without preboosting and the fastest spoolup possible. In addition I know the price difference I'm looking at as opposed to just getting a big16G.

Ultimately I'm looking at tubular manifold with the fastest spooling most durable turbo I can find (ball bearing or not) that will give me 340-375HP.

Is there a manufacturer making basically the big16g or EVOIII with a garrett bb center?

 

[brute]

Why would you want a BB Evo III? It spools up ridiculously fast as it is. There are trade offs with both types of turbo:

Ball-bearing may have better transient response and faster spool characteristics, but they have a hefty price tag and cannot be rebuilt.

Also as I commented earlier, there are many turbos that come in ball-bearing form that weren't originally designed to be like that. I feel that this can create a compressor that acts different (not necessarily bad, but not necessarily good) as it should. The GT series were designed for the ball-bearing CHRA, so they will act much closer to manners predicted on the compressor map.

Are you looking for bolt-on? T3? Is money an issue?

You can look into the TO4E 60-trim and TO4B "H" trim compressors, as a quick look at their compressor maps gives the impression that they seem to mesh with your goals.

 

[ThingyNess]

It's hard to beat the EVOIII big 16g for price and durability. Yes, it has a bigger turbine wheel than the T25/28, which will result in a little higher boost threshold, but as they say, you don't get something for nothing. You can only go so far with trying to shoehorn a giant compressor wheel capable of flowing enough air for 400hp on a teeny turbine wheel like that of a T25/28. Power never comes for free, and turbos that are capable of making more power always result in trade-offs, be it skyrocketing exhaust backpressure that lowers your VE and increases your risk of detonation (if you use a turbine wheel/housing that is too small), or higher boost threshold/turbo lag (if you use a turbine wheel/housing that's bigger than stock.) Another issue with running bigger compressors on smaller turbine wheels is compressor surge - often bigger turbos could spool up quicker if they used a smaller turbine wheel or exhaust housing, but then you'd run smack into compressor surge during spoolup, which is not acceptable.

If ball bearing is really what you're looking for, a ball bearing GT2871R is probably going to be the best fit. The GT2860RS (Disco Potato) is not bad, but it does use a very old design T3 compressor wheel. Ball bearing is certainly nice, but boost threshold is going to be a function of wheel design / inertia, rather than the drag on the rotating assembly caused by the bearings (sleeve or ball bearings.) The quicker respool between shifts is certainly nice, although I don't think it outweighs the cost difference (double) between it and the EVOIII-16g, and that's not even taking into account the fact that you'll need a new manifold, O2 housing, and different intercooler piping.

Rumor has it that Forced Performance (www.forcedperformance.net) can shoehorn a GT2871R ball bearing center section into a set of mitsu T25 housings, making basically a ball bearing FP Big T28, which might also be a good choice. I'd give Robert and the boys at FP a call and see what they say.

 

[T2Small]

I have a AGP L1R which I love. I don't believe you can get them any longer, but it really does give incredible spool, and more than enough flow for 400HP. On my old stock 2.0, I noticed a little more lag than the FP Big28, but in the upper rev range the L1R seems to hit harder and faster.

On my 2.4, the turbo is a bit silly. I can get roughly 10 PSI at about 2100-2500 RPM (tach reads 2000 RPM, but data logs show a bit higher), and my full 20 PSI before 3000.

 

[brute]

The L1R was basically the FP2544. It could flow 44 lb/min. The GT2876R of today can flow almost 50 lb/min, but that's pushing it. Either one of these turbos could achieve the goal for you, but one of them isn't available new anymore, and the other one is expensive.

 

[Steve93Talon]

The S256 is definitely more than capable of hanging with a similarly sized BB turbo, I saw 32psi under 4k and it's somewhere between a GT3076R and 35R in compressor size. As for being overkill for your goals, and an EVO3 not being quite enough if you decide to push it later, dont forget the tried-and-true 20g. I'd take it over a Garrett 50 trim ANY day. It'll spool practically the same as the EVO3 and make like 50whp more easily. They can be had under $1k with a clipped TD05H hotside.

 

[gsxtacy]

just get a used bolt on AGP RS60 and call it a day.

Otherwise this Precision 6152e I have been running just keeps getting better IMHO.
330-340 pump gas whp capable all day.

Lag? Whats that? 4500 till 20 psi is nuthing when you have rode in a 50trim + AWD with 116 octane.

just .02 though

 

[turbo addict]

I'm getting the responses I expected but not what I'm looking for. FYI - I'm switching to a 6bolt head/intake real soon but I don't want to up my cams just yet I want as little lag off the line as possible without preboosting and the fastest spoolup possible. In addition I know the price difference I'm looking at as opposed to just getting a big16G.

Ultimately I’m looking at tubular manifold with the fastest spooling most durable turbo I can find (ball bearing or not) that will give me 340-375HP.

Is there a manufacturer making basically the big16g or EVOIII with a garrett bb center?

How fast a spool do you really want, need? Are you looking for a certain rpm or I guess what purpose are you using (needing it) for? What sort of racing or driving do you do? With more info we can get a better view of what you are trying to do.
Are you racing from a roll or a stop or both?
I hate to say this and sound like a broken record but the e316g is a great turbo and can take an outrages amount of abuse. And if you are getting a tubular manifold spool will be reduced even more than normal. After getting the turbo things around the turbo can help reduce lag-such as the manifold among other things. If you roll race you can either set the pace of the race and get the revs where you need them for instant boost when you floor it or brake boost. And if you race from a stop you could get a 2step.
If you autocross another option is to get a e316g and find a good used 6cm turbine housing and port it, with a external gate that would spool really fast and should not have any creep issues. And if you decide to change back you still have the stock e3 housing.

You can buy a more expensive turbo, but with the correct set up 99 times out of 100 it is just not needed or worth the expense. I love doing things out of the box and different but it costs money to be different. And unless you need to reinvent the wheel, why waste you time.

I don't want want to discourage you in the least, so please give us a little more info on what you are trying to do with your car so we can help.