Took the head off, now found surprise!

[MattUnderwood]

So I bought my 1g back in March from a guy who said that a local shop did the engine for him and it had 2g pistons 1g rods. I didn't get anything in writing because this guy seemed trustworthy. I took the head off yesterday because the car over heated and blew the headgasket. I got a buddy to look at it, and the motor has been "o-ringed" I guess is how you say it and the head wasn't, and it's running 1g pistons on 1g rods! Such a great thing to find out on the holidays. So the question(s) are, do I need to get a special head gasket since the head isn't o-ringed but the block is or can I run the fel pro with Copper spray. I'm actually not surprised that the shop did it though because I've dealt with them before. Hopefully my job goes to full time and not seasonal soon so I can start buying the parts for a new engine, since I have a gut feeling the 1g combo won't last forever. Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Also please move/delete this if needed, I wasn't sure where to put it.

 

[livedsm4g63]

Well what did the head gasket look like when you took it off?

 

[WES_393]

What's wrong with 1g pistons? You know that bottom end has been proven to hold over 800hp. The 2g pistons are installed mostly for performance, not longevity or strength.

I can't answer the O-ring question, but I can say you shouldn't use copper spray on a headgasket. Composite or MLS.

 

[genegoesfast]

What material are the o rings made of? I'm guessing the recomendation will be to fill the oring "grooves" with copper and have the blocked milled down.

 

[BogusSVO]

How do you know it is a 1g piston and not a 2g? Did you check the part number?

Do you have copper or stainless steel O ring wire?

 

[talon2gbuyer]

yea.. this thread is pretty worthless without pictures or part #'s

 

[BogusSVO]

If you have not read this thread.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cylinder-head-short-block/417442-o-ring-block-problem-need-help.html

You should, has good info about O rings.

 

[MattUnderwood]

I didn't expect to get so many replies so quick sorry. First, we looked up the part numbers and they were 1g. Also the rings look like SS I believe. The HG was a cometic 3 ply I guess? We didn't see any cracks or breaks but there was coolant and oil mix. I can get pictures once I go back outside and post them also. Finally, I don't have the funds to get the block milled down so I'm trying to see what all I can do to make sure the motor will run just fine for now and in a few months I can do a rebuild.

I'm trying to get some insight to see what my options are since I just paid almost all the car money I had on the HX35 setup. I don't know if this is useful but it will be running around 32 psi on 93 pump gas. Also, every car my buddy has done has been with the felt pro and copper sprayed(4 cars total, 2 of his and 2 of mine) and never really had a problem. The used head I'm waiting on took the last bit of money, so I don't know if I'll have enough to get it shaved or resurfaced.

 

[BogusSVO]

Measure the protrution of the O ring above the block deck.


What boost level and what turbo are you running?

 

[MattUnderwood]

Measure the protrution of the O ring above the block deck.


What boost level and what turbo are you running?

Hx35 and at most 32.

 

[BogusSVO]

Copper spray on a composite HG, or a factory coated MLS is not needed IMHO.

For the budget you are working with, a composite felpro may be well the way to go.

Still need to know the O ring protrution.


As far as the used head you just bought, it needs to be checked out also.

It has to be flat and with the proper surface finish.
The valve springs need to be able to handle the cams you bolt in.
Guides need checked and same with the valve seals.

 

[MattUnderwood]

Update: I got outside to get the pictures. I haven't cleaned the block off yet, sorry.

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[BogusSVO]

Did you pull the O rings out? or did they stick to the HG? Or were they missing?

 

[MattUnderwood]

I didn't pull them out and they aren't in the HG. I thought they were missing but then I thought I was just dumb and blind. I think the shop didn't put them in when they finished the motor.

 

[BogusSVO]

No gasket is going to seal for long with out putting a ring in there.

Install some copper ones and get the block milled, or install stainless and torque the proper gasket in place.

Third choice is find a diffrent block, or short block and go from there.

 

[MattUnderwood]

I'll probably go with SS. Any idea where I can get them?

 

[BogusSVO]

From Post #10, That I linked above.

The diameter of the wire will be dependent on how the grooves were machined. The wider the groove, the wider the wire. Each piece will have to be cut-to-fit. Again, dependent on how the block was machined.

If the gasket you're using has a built-in fire ring then you may think about filling in the grooves and assembling the engine without the o-rings. Also, if there are no receiver grooves in the head then you may think about not using the o-rings. If you don't have the means to fill the grooves and mill the deck smooth again, an alternative would be to press copper wire into them and use a composite head gasket. The maleable copper will compress a bit and any material that is protruding above the deck will be absorbed by the composite material as if it weren't there. I would not try this with a MLS gasket.

I see absolutely no need to utilize o-rings in a block that will see a mere 20psi.

You have to figure out wit dia wire the block was cut for, then find the proper dia. wire and cut to fit.

 

[MattUnderwood]

I don't know how I didn't see your link. Anyways, thanks for your help.

 

[BogusSVO]

No problem!

Good luck with the repair, and keep us posted on how it goes!

 

[MattUnderwood]

My used head doesn't come in until next week and I probably wont get to start fixing everything until the weekend if not longer away. I need boost therapy, since I had the hx35 on the car for not even two weeks.

 

[BogusSVO]

What is wrong with the head you pulled off?

 

[MattUnderwood]

My buddy thinks one of the valves is cracked. I think that's what he said.

 

[Fiascoxl]

, I was flabbergasted to see an o ringed block with stock internals, even more so with the o rings non existent! I think that the previous builder of the engine threw in some internals they had laying around with fresh bearings and rings into an old race block that wasn't being used? This we will never know, I am certain of.

I couldn't really find a crack in the head or failure in the gasket anywhere. But in between the gasket layers near cylinders 2 and 3 there was a lot of oil water mix, I think the head may have warped when it was over heated and unseated the gasket possibly. It seems the o ringed block with no o rings would give the head gasket a smaller surface area to seal causing the premature gasket failure? It was pushing tons of coolant through the exhaust and compressing the coolant with visible bubbles blowing through to the overflow.

oh and I said I seen a couple of very small cracks in one of the valve guides.

 

[BogusSVO]

The cracks in the valve guides could be that the head had bent valves, and just changed the valves and left the crack guides in.

The theroy you laid out on why the gasket let loose sounds about right.

 

[MattUnderwood]

FiascoXL is my mechanic so I was gonna let him describe everything haha. I did get the head looked at today and the only thing they said to do was shaved. Said it wasn't even a lot but like .10 if I remember correctly, so I'm gonna call the shop they recommended and hope it's not expensive at all.