1G Timing belt question

[Sbgriffin]

So I'm not sure if I'm posting this in the right forum, but the topic seem to fit the best. So here it goes.
So I'm starting to second guess my timing belt install on 1 point. I've actually been in there twice now. Because I didn't replace all the seals, and the balance shaft seal was leaking. Both times it was the same. I'd work the timing belt around how it says on the vfaq's and my manual. Also using a cam gear lock, so I don't question those marks. Working it over the idler pulley, oil pump sprocket, crank, and last the tensioner pulley. To this point all is lined up perfectly.
So I move to adding tension to the belt as the manual says. Checking my work on each step. But always after adding tension. My crankshaft mark is off just a slight bit, with everything else lined up. And I mean it still real close. It's just on the edge of the notch. So is this normal after adding tension? I would think if I was a tooth off it would be much more noticeable? Another reason I'm second guessing myself is my car's vacuum in/hg is borderline low(15-16). And I've done many boost leak testing/fixing. So basically Im needing others feedback to justify tearing it back apart? Thanks in advance.

 

[Pulids27]

I actually did my timing belt not so long ago and I ran into a similar problem and no matter what I did I couldn't get it to be perfect so I gave up on it and I let it be like that and everything's perfectly fine but I have only about 10hg of vacuum because of my 272 cams but no biggie. If your really worried about it remove spark plug number 1 and shove a straw in there and rotate it and see where the piston is at tdc compare to the cam sprockets.

 

[Sbgriffin]

I actually did my timing belt not so long ago and I ran into a similar problem and no matter what I did I couldn't get it to be perfect so I gave up on it and I let it be like that and everything's perfectly fine but I have only about 10hg of vacuum because of my 272 cams but no biggie. If your really worried about it remove spark plug number 1 and shove a straw in there and rotate it and see where the piston is at tdc compare to the cam sprockets.

Yeah I've tried that, but I'm still unsure. I think my crank pulley/balancer is starting to separate possible throwing it off. Or it is off a tooth? When I get it to TDC and line up the cam marks, it's off by 1or2 deg on the crank. But it's just a hair past the TDC mark. Maybe I'm just being a little OCD about this?

 

[boostdawd]

Have u rotated the crank 6 times and waited 15 or so minutes? As long as the notches match you are good to go. Try to rotate it again and make sure the crank is aligned and check the timing marks for your cams. I have found over the years it is easier to set the exhaust cam one tooth off so everything can match up perfectly afterwards.

 

[pauleyman]

Don't use your harmonic balancer to set mechanical timing. Take the covers off and use the notches on the actual crank sprocket.

 

[Sbgriffin]

Don't use your harmonic balancer to set mechanical timing. Take the covers off and use the notches on the actual crank sprocket.

So I was talking about checking my mechanical timing now that everything is assembled using the harmonic balancer and timing marks, and running to TDC. I saying that Im not sure if that's accurate because my balancer is starting to separate.
Originally doing the timing job I followed the vfaq's and manual to a tee. Including rotating the engine 6 times, and waiting 15 mins before checking my tension. And seems perfect besides one spot. The crank pulley isn't exactly dead center in the notch. After adding tension it's always on the edge of the notch. Maybe I'm being over critical? It's still hitting the notch, just not dead center. So my question is if I was a tooth off down there, wouldn't it be much more noticeable?

 

[pauleyman]

So I was talking about checking my mechanical timing now that everything is assembled using the harmonic balancer and timing marks, and running to TDC. I saying that Im not sure if that's accurate because my balancer is starting to separate.
Originally doing the timing job I followed the vfaq's and manual to a tee. Including rotating the engine 6 times, and waiting 15 mins before checking my tension. And seems perfect besides one spot. The crank pulley isn't exactly dead center in the notch. After adding tension it's always on the edge of the notch. Maybe I'm being over critical? It's still hitting the notch, just not dead center. So my question is if I was a tooth off down there, wouldn't it be much more noticeable?

Again, stop using the harmonic balancer. Use the crank mark underneath the covers if you want to be sure. Yes it means more work but it's the only way to properly check. Take a few hours and go look if you're worried about it.

 

[ChessmoDSM]

You should also replace the Harmonic Balancer ASAP if it is separating, I recommend the OEM version(STAY FAR AWAY from Dorman and just spend the $$$ for OEM).. I just did the belt change on my 92, it only has 27k miles and the Balancer was toast.

I also messed up the 1st go around on my timing belt job as I did not set the tensioner properly(didn't have the long bolt tool that makes things much easier).. My timing jumped 2 teeth after it ran fine on intial startup/easy driving before the jump, but I was VERY lucky and it happened when the motor was not under load..

This is one job you want to take your time doing(no pun intended) and make sure everything is precise..

 

[Sbgriffin]

Yeah my gut is telling me I need to look one more time. Really there's 3 things having me 2nd guessing. Low vacuum at idle (15-16in hg). It's kinda sluggish off idle, once I get to 2500rpm it's descent. But the biggest concern is remembering my crank pulley mark (inside) not being dead center in the notch. I just needed a few other opinions to justify tearing down. So thanks for putting up with my noob question. Lesson is, always trust your gut. Thanks.

 

[ChessmoDSM]

I had the same thing man low vacuum and it ran like arse(idles rough ect).. Do it over and make sure it is right, you will thank yourself later..

 

[pauleyman]

Yeah my gut is telling me I need to look one more time. Really there's 3 things having me 2nd guessing. Low vacuum at idle (15-16in hg). It's kinda sluggish off idle, once I get to 2500rpm it's descent. But the biggest concern is remembering my crank pulley mark (inside) not being dead center in the notch. I just needed a few other opinions to justify tearing down. So thanks for putting up with my noob question. Lesson is, always trust your gut. Thanks.

If that notch wasn't right I can only think of two things. Head or block has been decked excessively or the job was done incorrectly. Anymore after I rotate the motor I line up the cams without even looking at the crank. THEN I look at the crank and it's always dead nuts. I do this because it's easier to finesse the cam maks and get them dead on. The crank is small diameter so you may think it's dead on and then look at the cams and think they're slightly off etc and end up second guessing yourself. After 50 or 60 timing belt jobs I don't really think about it anymore. Honestly I have read hundreds of posts saying "good luck", "crossing my fingers" etc. I never understood it. If a person didn't feel 100% confident the job was done right or the hoping the tension is correct then I believe that person didn't 100% understand how to do the job AND correctly check the work. Checking the work is so so easy to do. The faqs are pretty good but even the factory manual describes in detail exactly what to measure and how to do it.
You would probably do well to take the covers off and check. Is it really that much work? A few hours at best.

 

[Sbgriffin]

Your right, I won't sleep well til I'm 100%. I like to think I have descent attention to detail, borderline OCD. And I've been mechanicing for many years now. I'm just new to the 4g63, and it definitely demands a higher level of attention. Also I sure wish I had few DSM buddies in my area for these 2nd opinions.
Also I've read that you can be a half tooth off in relation. What I mean is if all is lined up perfectly besides the crank pulley mark. Because of ratio of rotation. 2 rotations for every one on the cams. I think I have that right? So in my eyes that would make more sense. Because with everything else lined up perfectly the crank notch isn't dead center. I'd say it's more like 1 or 2mm off dead nuts.
So any way this will be the 3rd time I've been in there. Had to go in the 2nd round because I didn't replace all my seals. And the balance shaft seal was leaking. But as we all know the 3rd time is always the charm. Plus I have all the right tools for the job now, making it much easier.
The #1 things I've learned since I bought my 1g DSM 10 months ago is. Never cut corners, be cheap, or leave anything to chance. And listen to your gut. So thanks again for the input, and putting up with my ramblings...

 

[luv2rallye]

Use a ruler between cam bolt heads to check cam sprocket notches as shown below (and notice the cam sprocket notches orientation at the center - one high notch lines up with the other low notch).

http://www.dsmtuners.com/attachments/timing-cam-shaft-sprockets-alignment-jpg.292176/

And read the Note in step 22 of http://www.vfaq.com/mods/timingbelt-1G.html.

 

[Sbgriffin]

Use a ruler between cam bolt heads to check cam sprocket notches as shown below (and notice the cam sprocket notches orientation at the center - one high notch lines up with the other low notch).

http://www.dsmtuners.com/attachments/timing-cam-shaft-sprockets-alignment-jpg.292176/

And read the Note in step 22 of http://www.vfaq.com/mods/timingbelt-1G.html.

Yes sir, I employed these methods the last round. Also having a cam gear lock tool helps too. And I know to rotate the exhaust cam gear one tooth clockwise. So the only point I'm questioning is the crank gear notch. And like I said, it was dead nuts on til I added my tension. Then the crank notch is then not dead center. The pointer is on the edge of the notch. Maybe a few mm from center. So I'll dive back into it this weekend for some peace of mind. Let you all know what I find. Thanks again.

 

[ChessmoDSM]

Are you pulling the pin to set tension according to the VAQ's also, are you using the long bolt tool that helps this whole process?

Don't forget using the drill-bit to measure and waiting 15 min, both are key..

 

[2g gst 95]

So I'm not sure if I'm posting this in the right forum, but the topic seem to fit the best. So here it goes.
So I'm starting to second guess my timing belt install on 1 point. I've actually been in there twice now. Because I didn't replace all the seals, and the balance shaft seal was leaking. Both times it was the same. I'd work the timing belt around how it says on the vfaq's and my manual. Also using a cam gear lock, so I don't question those marks. Working it over the idler pulley, oil pump sprocket, crank, and last the tensioner pulley. To this point all is lined up perfectly.
So I move to adding tension to the belt as the manual says. Checking my work on each step. But always after adding tension. My crankshaft mark is off just a slight bit, with everything else lined up. And I mean it still real close. It's just on the edge of the notch. So is this normal after adding tension? I would think if I was a tooth off it would be much more noticeable? Another reason I'm second guessing myself is my car's vacuum in/hg is borderline low(15-16). And I've done many boost leak testing/fixing. So basically Im needing others feedback to justify tearing it back apart? Thanks in advance.

I just did my timing belt 100 miles ago and Everytime I'd tighten it it would do the same thing but eventually I got it. If you're a tooth or two off I'd just re-do it just because it's not very safe and it will shorten the life of your engine.

 

[luv2rallye]

Sometimes with the engine in the car, measuring the distance between the tensioner arm and auto tensioner body (usually with a drill bit) is hard to see or do. Example: Can't get in there or see if drill bit is truly parallel to the auto tensioner top (which affects measurement) or you can’t get a 2.6 ft-lb torque wrench on the tensioner pulley special tool MD998767.

You can replace all that complicated tensioning torque stuff (which you can rarely get right with the engine in the car anyway - no room) with the following alternative. Just adjust the tensioner pulley so that the auto tensioner holding pin (eg. 1/16 allen wrench) slides freely all the way through the auto tensioner body and pin holes (after you turn the crankshaft 6 revs and wait 15 minutes for the belt to stretch and auto tensioner to settle).

Adjust the tensioner pulley to do this and it will automatically make the distance between the tensioner arm and auto tensioner body (drill bit measurement) be about .157 in. (spec is .150 - .177 in.). I've done over a dozen DSM timing belts this way with every one done correctly.

 

[ChessmoDSM]

Just adjust the tensioner pulley so that the auto tensioner holding pin (eg. 1/16 allen wrench) slides freely all the way through the auto tensioner body and pin holes (after you turn the crankshaft 6 revs and wait 15 minutes for the belt to stretch and auto tensioner to settle). Adjust the tensioner pulley to do this and it will automatically make the distance between the tensioner arm and auto tensioner body (drill bit measurement) be about .157 in. (spec is .150 - .177 in.). I've done over a dozen dsm timing belts this way with every one done correctly.

I was not aware of this method, thanks much for sharing!!

 

[pauleyman]

Sometimes with the engine in the car, measuring the distance between the tensioner arm and auto tensioner body (usually with a drill bit) is hard to see or do. Example: Can't get in there or see if drill bit is truly parallel to the auto tensioner top (which affects measurement) or you can’t get a 2.6 ft-lb torque wrench on the tensioner pulley special tool MD998767. You can replace all that complicated tensioning torque stuff (which you can rarely get right with the engine in the car anyway - no room) with the following alternative. Just adjust the tensioner pulley so that the auto tensioner holding pin (eg. 1/16 allen wrench) slides freely all the way through the auto tensioner body and pin holes (after you turn the crankshaft 6 revs and wait 15 minutes for the belt to stretch and auto tensioner to settle). Adjust the tensioner pulley to do this and it will automatically make the distance between the tensioner arm and auto tensioner body (drill bit measurement) be about .157 in. (spec is .150 - .177 in.). I've done over a dozen dsm timing belts this way with every one done correctly.

I concur this is how I do mine also. Very easy to apply tension and feel if the pin is loose or not.

 

[Sbgriffin]

Since I didn't have the threaded rod tool I used the pin method. Using the special tool for the tensioner pulley I would add tension while rotating the pin. When I felt the pin moving freely, I would tighten the pulley bolt. Then I rotated the engine 6 times and wait 15 min. If the pin still moved freely, I pulled it. Then I rotated the engine 6 more times and lined up all my mark, and pushed the pin back in for second. And still would go back in, just was a little tighter after it settling in. I even tried my best to measure with a drill bit. All seemed dead on as far as tension. The only thing that wasn't exact anymore is the crank notch, but extremely close. Just not dead center. So how far off would a full tooth look like on the crank, I would think it be more than I'm seeing?

 

[ChessmoDSM]

Can you post a pic of what you are seeing?

 

[Sbgriffin]

When I get it back apart, hopefully this weekend. I'll try my best to snap a pic.

 

[Sbgriffin]

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So I just got it tore back apart, and here's what I'm looking at. I'm pretty sure I did it for nothing but can you guys see what I'm talking about now?

It's very close, but not dead center in the crank notch. I'm pretty sure if I was a tooth off, it would be way more noticeable.

I took a bunch of different angles of pics because one angle looks pretty decent. From another its not. I'm guessing I'm making too big of a deal of this? But like I said, I'm OCD, ...
So really I just need some other opinions to put this to rest, and move on.

Also on a related note, I'm having issues with my AC belt rubbing a groove in my timing cover. I've tried twice to remedy this, with no prevail. Anybody have a solution?
Thanks.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Is the crank timing disk snug, not loose is it or wiggly? Other than that, if you move it one tooth it sure looks like it will be way off. I looked back at my build pictures and mine are almost dead on. And your crank keyway is perfectly straight?

 

[ChessmoDSM]

^^^ What he said, mine was dead on balls accurate when done correctly (after the 15 rotations/wait 15 min).. << I had to do this 3 times though on the 2nd go around (my 1st try at the timing belt job resulted in jumping 2 teeth) before it was dead on balls accurate (which means I set the tension a total of 3 times before it was perfect)..

On a diff note, you had said the current HB was bad, did you replace the harmonic balancer with a new one? This should be done as part of the timing belt job if it is bad and ONLY OEM..