Timing being pulled, Dont know why

[allgripnoslip]

My talon was running perfect, better than its ever ran since I've owned it. Then I decided to clean it up a bit and do a minor wiretuck. Now when I go into boost at WOT, I can feel timing being pulled intermittenly throughout the wot pull.

MODS:

ECU+
small 16g
720cc
evo 8 fp rewired
fmic
intake/exhaust
cyclone intake manifold
1g head/1g tb


Boost spikes to 17 and holds at 15/16 to redline in the good run

boost goes to 15psi and slowly goes up and down until 18 or 19 on bad run due to misfires or timing retard


Great run:


RPM IDC TPS Mas in Timing Knock Voltage A/F Ratio

3189 21 4.2 582 18 1.37 14.39
3216 22 4.62 646 17 1.35 13.05
3259 24 4.71 673 18 1.33 12.35
3289 25 4.73 637 18 1.43 11.92
3303 26 4.72 739 17 1.4 11.57
3312 27 4.73 710 15 1.38 11.2
3341 29 4.71 768 14 1.36 10.88
3399 30 4.73 758 13 1.67 10.66
3434 32 4.74 832 13 1.65 10.49
3432 33 4.72 853 12 1.63 10.31
3470 37 4.74 876 10 1.61 10.22
3498 38 4.74 919 11 1.59 10.22
3521 40 4.74 939 10 1.56 10.25
3572 42 4.74 969 10 1.54 10.21
3591 43 4.74 1024 4 1.51 10.21
3608 45 4.74 1003 8 1.49 10.21
3657 48 4.75 984 8 1.47 10.26
3635 47 4.74 984 9 1.45 10.2
3719 48 4.74 946 10 1.42 10.24
3754 47 4.73 961 4 1.4 10.22
3738 46 4.75 958 3 1.37 10.26
3820 47 4.74 963 8 1.35 10.23
3821 46 4.75 984 3 1.32 10.25
3882 47 4.74 949 8 1.3 10.21
3895 47 4.73 988 4 1.27 10.25
3932 47 4.74 982 9 1.25 10.21
3992 48 4.73 1001 9 1.22 10.22
4022 48 4.74 996 9 1.2 10.26
4031 48 4.73 1014 10 1.17 10.26
4066 48 4.73 1009 10 1.14 10.33
4110 48 4.74 1022 10 1.39 10.32
4133 48 4.75 1053 10 1.36 10.33
4185 49 4.75 1033 9 1.33 10.33
4214 49 4.72 1081 10 1.31 10.34
4238 49 4.74 1068 9 1.35 10.38
4290 50 4.74 1073 10 1.32 10.38
4336 50 4.72 1110 11 1.3 10.36
4362 51 4.74 1100 11 1.27 10.35
4383 51 4.74 1146 11 1.24 10.38
4431 52 4.74 1124 11 1.21 10.4
4472 53 4.73 1144 11 1.18 10.39
4520 53 4.74 1183 12 1.15 10.42
4519 53 4.74 1197 11 1.12 10.41
4550 54 4.74 1204 11 1.09 10.43
4602 55 4.74 1211 11 1.16 10.37
4657 57 4.73 1223 11 1.14 10.4
4677 58 4.72 1278 12 1.11 10.36
4695 59 4.73 1257 11 1.07 10.33
4729 60 4.73 1265 11 1.14 10.22
4786 62 4.74 1294 12 1.11 10.27
4835 62 4.72 1341 11 1.07 10.21
4836 63 4.74 1296 11 1.04 10.21
4872 64 4.73 1310 11 1.12 10.26
4932 65 4.73 1326 12 1.1 10.23
4974 65 4.69 1361 12 1.18 10.24
4993 66 4.71 1398 12 1.14 10.21
5012 66 4.69 1355 12 1.2 10.22
5039 67 4.71 1388 13 1.16 10.19
5105 68 4.72 1407 13 1.13 10.24
5168 69 4.73 1401 14 1.09 10.22
5143 69 4.71 1446 14 1.06 10.28
5195 70 4.71 1498 13 1.19 10.28
5232 71 4.72 1467 14 1.15 10.24
5283 72 4.73 1495 14 1.12 10.28
5325 73 4.7 1524 14 1.27 10.22
5360 73 4.72 1543 15 1.23 10.17
5368 73 4.71 1558 15 1.2 10.22
5422 75 4.72 1554 15 1.71 10.19
5448 74 4.71 1550 16 1.68 10.24
5483 75 4.71 1578 16 1.65 10.22
5539 76 4.68 1640 16 1.61 10.22
5579 77 4.69 1615 16 1.57 10.22
5599 77 4.68 1602 16 1.53 10.17
5627 78 4.71 1640 16 1.5 10.26
5682 79 4.73 1606 17 1.46 10.25
5718 79 4.71 1657 17 1.55 10.21
5752 80 4.72 1657 17 1.51 10.25
5776 80 4.72 1675 17 1.47 10.25
5814 80 4.7 1703 17 1.44 10.26
5876 82 4.69 1712 17 1.4 10.25
5900 82 4.71 1750 18 1.67 10.26
5934 83 4.72 1731 17 1.64 10.22
5975 83 4.71 1750 18 1.64 10.19
6000 83 4.7 1736 18 1.6 10.2
6045 84 4.72 1745 18 1.56 10.25
6072 84 4.71 1775 18 1.57 10.19
6096 85 4.72 1796 18 1.87 10.22
6148 85 4.7 1780 18 1.83 10.19
6196 86 4.71 1801 18 1.79 10.24
6199 86 4.7 1816 18 1.75 10.23
6250 86 4.72 1785 18 1.75 10.24
6298 87 4.72 1816 19 1.71 10.25
6326 87 4.72 1806 19 1.95 10.28
6352 87 4.71 1790 19 1.91 10.29
6382 87 4.72 1854 19 1.87 10.21
6430 88 4.72 1838 19 1.83 10.15
6446 88 4.72 1832 19 1.79 10.2
6484 89 4.72 1843 20 1.74 10.21
6524 89 4.72 1827 19 1.7 10.25
6545 89 4.71 1838 19 1.88 10.17
6586 89 4.72 1806 20 1.94 10.22
6621 90 4.75 1849 20 1.89 10.16
6647 89 4.7 1843 19 1.86 10.21
6682 90 4.69 1860 19 1.81 10.21
6687 89 4.72 1849 19 1.77 10.25
6718 90 4.72 1865 19 1.81 10.12
6779 90 4.72 1843 21 1.76 10.29
6816 90 4.69 1865 21 1.77 10.18
6823 90 4.72 1843 21 1.72 10.15
6846 89 4.71 1871 21 1.68 10.22
6888 89 4.71 1849 21 1.77 10.14
6919 90 4.68 1860 21 1.73 10.19
6922 89 4.7 1854 21 1.68 10.24
6950 89 4.69 1822 21 1.82 10.23
6989 89 4.72 1854 22 2.07 10.2
7028 89 4.71 1822 22 2.02 10.14
7049 89 4.67 1832 22 1.98 10.21
6742 85 3.27 1760 21 1.93 10.25
6508 82 1.15 185 21 1.89 10.92
6419 81 0.68 99 21 1.85 14.32
6263 79 0.67 163 21 1.81 19.71
6094 77 0.68 216 21 1.76 19.99
5937 75 0.67 182 1 1.72 19.99
5785 99 0.67 128 15 1.69 19.99






problem run:


RPM IDC TPS MAS In Timing Knock Air/Fuel Ratio
volts Hz deg volts :1
2630 12 3.43 369 25 1.41 16.76
2715 13 4.11 379 22 1.39 16.69
2747 14 4.63 388 18 1.37 14.41
2721 14 4.67 403 26 1.35 13.3
2711 15 4.68 399 25 1.34 12.69
2759 15 4.67 392 24 1.32 12.29
2812 16 4.68 431 25 1.3 11.87
2828 16 4.68 443 19 1.28 11.38
2838 16 4.68 433 23 1.26 11.15
2849 17 4.67 432 23 1.25 10.94
2874 17 4.67 456 22 1.23 10.82
2910 18 4.68 477 22 1.21 10.64
2938 18 4.67 496 22 1.19 10.64
2949 18 4.68 522 22 1.17 10.52
2966 19 4.68 513 21 1.15 10.37
3002 20 4.68 536 20 1.13 10.37
3037 20 4.67 556 20 1.15 10.36
3057 21 4.68 575 19 1.38 10.39
3074 21 4.68 583 18 1.36 10.33
3094 22 4.68 584 17 1.34 10.29
3142 23 4.68 599 17 1.32 10.29
3176 24 4.68 596 16 1.3 10.29
3204 25 4.68 664 16 1.28 10.24
3224 25 4.68 694 15 1.26 10.21
3231 27 4.68 683 13 1.24 10.21
3259 29 4.68 713 12 1.22 10.22
3303 31 4.68 768 12 1.2 10.24
3334 33 4.68 774 7 1.25 10.21
3349 34 4.68 840 12 1.23 10.23
3383 36 4.68 864 11 1.21 10.22
3410 38 4.7 908 10 1.18 10.24
3450 40 4.68 963 10 1.16 10.23
3479 41 4.68 981 9 1.14 10.21
3490 43 4.68 1016 9 1.12 10.23
3522 47 4.68 1096 8 1.09 10.21
3563 48 4.68 1098 8 1.27 10.21
3542 50 4.68 1140 6 1.36 10.26
3616 52 4.68 1157 6 1.34 10.22
3634 54 4.68 1174 2 1.32 10.21
3641 54 4.68 1046 6 1.29 10.19
3777 52 4.68 1053 30 1.27 10.22
3622 52 4.68 1079 -1 1.25 10.22
3690 52 4.68 988 8 1.22 10.24
3868 54 4.68 1034 8 1.2 10.24
3817 51 4.68 1120 -1 1.17 10.21
3901 53 4.69 1034 10 1.28 10.24
3863 52 4.68 1083 8 1.29 10.2
3943 53 4.68 1059 10 1.35 10.21
3938 52 4.68 1094 5 1.34 10.27
3997 54 4.68 1059 10 1.31 10.17
4053 54 4.68 1104 10 1.28 10.16
4069 54 4.69 1102 10 1.26 10.25
4123 55 4.68 1128 10 1.24 10.23
4156 55 4.68 1153 10 1.31 10.2
4196 56 4.68 1161 10 1.28 10.21
4229 56 4.68 1132 10 1.33 10.23
4260 57 4.68 1185 10 1.54 10.22
4306 57 4.68 1204 12 1.52 10.26
4341 58 4.68 1213 11 1.49 10.21
4388 58 4.68 1232 11 1.46 10.21
4429 60 4.68 1288 11 1.43 10.25
4458 61 4.68 1255 12 1.4 10.18
4476 62 4.68 1321 12 1.37 10.21
4505 63 4.68 1326 10 1.34 10.21
4581 65 4.69 1376 10 1.31 10.23
4597 66 4.68 1385 10 1.28 10.26
4642 67 4.68 1446 10 1.25 10.2
4662 68 4.68 1450 11 1.23 10.2
4717 69 4.68 1443 10 1.19 10.28
4729 70 4.68 1481 11 1.16 10.21
4758 71 4.67 1491 10 1.13 10.25
4797 71 4.68 1484 11 1.1 10.21
4825 72 4.67 1488 10 1.07 10.26
4880 74 4.67 1531 10 1.04 10.27
4902 75 4.68 1550 11 1.14 10.21
4933 76 4.68 1547 10 1.49 10.18
4964 76 4.67 1627 10 1.46 10.21
5000 77 4.67 1627 10 1.43 10.24
5047 78 4.68 1623 10 1.39 10.22
5061 78 4.68 1636 10 1.36 10.23
5095 79 4.68 1671 10 1.33 10.22
5124 80 4.68 1675 11 1.29 10.24
5157 80 4.67 1675 11 1.26 10.27
5178 81 4.68 1712 11 1.23 10.19
5220 82 4.68 1703 11 1.19 10.21
5310 83 4.68 1740 11 1.16 10.19
5315 83 4.68 1765 11 1.13 10.23
5292 83 4.68 1717 11 1.23 10.23
5347 84 4.68 1745 11 1.2 10.21
5421 85 4.68 1785 12 1.19 10.24
5476 85 4.69 1780 14 1.16 10.2
5492 85 4.69 1796 14 1.12 10.27
5500 85 4.68 1796 13 1.08 10.25
5567 86 4.68 1811 13 1.05 10.21
5616 87 4.68 1785 13 1.01 10.21
5639 86 4.69 1790 15 1.66 10.21
5629 86 4.69 1822 15 1.62 10.22
5717 88 4.68 1816 15 1.59 10.21
5759 88 4.67 1838 15 1.55 10.29
5787 88 4.68 1854 16 1.51 10.22
5794 88 4.68 1860 16 1.47 10.22
5836 88 4.66 1822 17 1.44 10.21
5858 88 4.68 1843 17 1.4 10.2
5919 89 4.68 1871 17 1.36 10.23
5964 89 4.67 1860 18 1.32 10.22
6002 90 4.68 1876 18 1.28 10.21
6023 90 4.68 1899 18 1.26 10.21
6039 90 4.68 1882 18 1.22 10.24
6078 90 4.68 1905 18 1.18 10.16
6134 91 4.68 1905 18 1.22 10.22
6174 91 4.68 1888 18 1.18 10.29
6180 91 4.68 1888 18 1.57 10.21
6188 91 4.68 1905 18 1.53 10.25
6231 91 4.67 1905 18 1.49 10.25
6240 91 4.67 1929 18 1.45 10.24
6282 92 4.67 1917 18 1.41 10.21
6367 93 4.68 1959 18 1.45 10.21
6402 93 4.7 1911 19 1.56 10.22
6406 93 4.68 1917 19 1.52 10.28
6386 93 4.68 1917 19 1.48 10.21
6432 93 4.68 1923 19 1.44 10.35
6520 94 4.68 1929 19 1.4 10.23
6520 94 4.68 1935 19 1.36 10.21
6511 93 4.68 1941 20 1.38 10.22
6513 93 4.68 1882 20 1.35 10.16
6593 94 4.68 1911 19 1.44 10.23
6675 93 4.68 1905 19 1.42 10.27
6558 91 4.67 1941 21 1.47 10.22
6635 93 4.55 1941 20 1.44 10.24



I realize the a/f ratio is really rich but my EGT probe is broke and I want to keep things very safe and conservative for now, plus the car started acting up before I got a chance to tune it properly.

 

[tbonitz301]

You could be experiencing rich knock. Where these runs back to back? Do you have a front mount?

 

[Chicken Patty]

What exactly do you mean by wire tucking? what wires?

 

[allgripnoslip]

no these runs were 1 day apart after I did a small wire tuck and yes I have a fmic. I thought it might be rich knock as well but the great run puts out 50 hp more and has a very very solid torque curve compared to the bad run and they both have the same A/F ratio. Ill also add that I have a PLX wideband.

 

[allgripnoslip]

I took the harness that runs along the top of the intake manifold ( coil harness, injector wires, Crank sensor wires) that huge loom of wires and routed it under my intake manifold out of sight. I did the same thing with the harness that comes out of the bottom of the battery, I just re-routed wires to where it would be cleaner and out of the way, no cutting of the actual wires was done, just cutting of the looms to separate them.

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[allgripnoslip]

what really worries me is what happens from 3777 to 3863 where timing is wacky and rpm goes up and down

 

[Chicken Patty]

I dont know what to tell you man. Although you think you didn't, you might have cut a wire by mistake, or maybe when you pulled them and moved them around you could have damaged one or something. I would take my time and check them out again.

 

[allgripnoslip]

Yea I think Im going to have to try that Monday or something ( tomorrow is mother's day hint hint ) I also forgot to add this important part If I go part throttle, timing advances normally and is much much quicker.

 

[Chicken Patty]

Yea I think Im going to have to try that Monday or something ( tomorrow is mother's day hint hint ) I also forgot to add this important part If I go part throttle, timing advances normally and is much much quicker.

yeah man, it def. had to do something with what you did. You might have damaged or disconnected a wire inside the loom unknowingly. Enjoy mothers day, keep us updated.

 

[allgripnoslip]

well I turned the wire tuck back to stock and the problem is still there... I have no idea wtf is happening.

 

[Chicken Patty]

well I turned the wire tuck back to stock and the problem is still there... I have no idea wtf is happening.

dude, why don't you check the wiring on the ecu plus???? Also, are you getting a CEL?

 

[allgripnoslip]

ECU+ is reading normally, havent messed with those wires. Im going to check a certain loom of wires in the engine bay and maybe even try new plugs and wires. I will post back later tonight. I did some searching and found some others with the same problem, the car sounds like a machine gun when boost comes on and at higher rpms and plug wires were the culprit in their case, because I did clean them during the wire tuck and maybe I pulled on them too hard when I was wiping them with a towel... wish me luck.

 

[EclipseRacing99]

what plugs are you running and what gap?

 

[allgripnoslip]

NGK BPR6ES gapped to .028"

 

[allgripnoslip]

Just bought new plugs and wires, BPR7ES gapped to about .029" to .030". Didnt fix the problem. it seems that the problem is consistent at the same rpm during back to back runs, it starts at about 4200 and ends at 5000.

 

[Chicken Patty]

Just bought new plugs and wires, BPR7ES gapped to about .029" to .030". Didnt fix the problem. it seems that the problem is consistent at the same rpm during back to back runs, it starts at about 4200 and ends at 5000.

try gapping your plugs to .25". My car runs a whole lot better like that. But i doubt it thats it.

 

[allgripnoslip]

I think I may have possibly found something interesting... comparing 4 back to back logs of when the car ran great, I noticed an area where the a/f ratio humps from 3700 - 4800 rpms, that is the a/f ratio goes from 10.4:1 to 11.1 back to 10.4, during this time period. What is interesting is that continously after these runs, the hump starts to shrink until by the 4th run it becomes just a flat line like the rest of the a/f ratio graph. I think that because of my new boost levels on the small 16g I may have developed a leak at the throttle body initially and with more boosting just made it worse until its in the condition it is in now.

My second reasoning for this is also because the mas Hz increases much much quicker with rpm compared to previous runs as well, which makes sense now that I have a boost leak at the throttle body. I used 1500 Hz just because it was easy to find on the graphs and because peak Hz for each run was different as was max RPM, and these runs were all at the same boost level.
For instance;
Run1: 1500Hz @ 5700 rpm
Run2: 1500Hz @ 5750 rpm
Run3: 1500Hz @ 5350 rpm
Run4: 1500Hz @ 5300 rpm

then when things got bad:

Run5: 1500Hz @ 4450 rpm
Run6: 1500Hz @ 4850 rpm

after new plugs and wires
Run6: 1500Hz @ 4900 rpm


If this theory is incorrect I would appreciate it if someone would correct me. Thanks

 

[Chicken Patty]

I think I may have possibly found something interesting... comparing 4 back to back logs of when the car ran great, I noticed an area where the a/f ratio humps from 3700 - 4800 rpms, that is the a/f ratio goes from 10.4:1 to 11.1 back to 10.4, during this time period. What is interesting is that continously after these runs, the hump starts to shrink until by the 4th run it becomes just a flat line like the rest of the a/f ratio graph. I think that because of my new boost levels on the small 16g I may have developed a leak at the throttle body initially and with more boosting just made it worse until its in the condition it is in now.

My second reasoning for this is also because the mas Hz increases much much quicker with rpm compared to previous runs as well, which makes sense now that I have a boost leak at the throttle body. I used 1500 Hz just because it was easy to find on the graphs and because peak Hz for each run was different as was max RPM, and these runs were all at the same boost level.
For instance;
Run1: 1500Hz @ 5700 rpm
Run2: 1500Hz @ 5750 rpm
Run3: 1500Hz @ 5350 rpm
Run4: 1500Hz @ 5300 rpm

then when things got bad:

Run5: 1500Hz @ 4450 rpm
Run6: 1500Hz @ 4850 rpm

after new plugs and wires
Run6: 1500Hz @ 4900 rpm


If this theory is incorrect I would appreciate it if someone would correct me. Thanks

get a boost leak test done and let us know what you find

 

[allgripnoslip]

I did one on sunday , leaking air from the tb shaft seal pretty bad. When I increase the pressure to 20psi it falls pretty quickly to 15 then a little slower 15-10psi and then 10-5psi is slower and it hangs around 5 psi for pretty long. My initial thought was that I had a boost leak the whole time, which is when my IDC was like 88% even on the 'good' runs. I should not be seeing 88% IDC on a small 16g with 720's at 16-17 psi. Reviewing those logs confirmed that a previous boost leak I already had, got exponentially worse the more I boosted the 16g. I dont know what to do, buy a reman 1g tb or just buy the seals... Im afraid that Im going to strip those screws that hold the throttle plate on.. anywho I really appreciate you continually posting and trying to help me, +1

 

[Chicken Patty]

I did one on sunday , leaking air from the tb shaft seal pretty bad. When I increase the pressure to 20psi it falls pretty quickly to 15 then a little slower 15-10psi and then 10-5psi is slower and it hangs around 5 psi for pretty long. My initial thought was that I had a boost leak the whole time, which is when my IDC was like 88% even on the 'good' runs. I should not be seeing 88% IDC on a small 16g with 720's at 16-17 psi. Reviewing those logs confirmed that a previous boost leak I already had, got exponentially worse the more I boosted the 16g. I dont know what to do, buy a reman 1g tb or just buy the seals... Im afraid that Im going to strip those screws that hold the throttle plate on.. anywho I really appreciate you continually posting and trying to help me, +1

yeah man. thats def. it. Well at least it should be it. I think if you are careful and you take your time you can buy the seals and do it yourself. Keep us updated.

Don't worry buddy, i'm here till the end hehe. Take care, keep ups posted.