Thinking about trading in my 98 3kgt sl for talon tsi

[rambow70]

Ok so i have a 98 3000gt SL and i was going to twin turbo it (bought everything but an intercooler and tunning piggy back) and i rebuilt the tranny. However my engine needs a rebuild and the car is a huge pain in my ass. Plus the fwd tranny is weak and does not like extra power or being launched.

So anyway i was thinking about buying a talon tsi because i think it would be cheaper to build.
I was wondering how much power does a stock motor handle?
What do i need to reinforce in the engine to handle that can handle 320-400whp (like just gaskets, rods, pistons, studs, stock head? stock crank?)
Also how is the awd tranny in these cars? Will a simple rebuild allow me to run that kind of power and not give out quickly? (i never launch)
Also is tuning easy on these cars?
Lastly what kind of turbos are popular on this platform? I know 16g is popular but its such an old turbo and i kind of want to make a little more than 320.
Answering any of these is appreciated!

EDIT:
Also what are some good vendors for these cars? Like 3k's have 3sx and ninja performance, what are some good dsm ones?

 

[livedsm4g63]

Lawl, selling your car because its a pain... just to buy a dsm... You have a world of awakening ahead of you.

 

[rambow70]

Lawl, selling your car because its a pain... just to buy a dsm... You have a world of awakening ahead of you.

Well its easier to work on a inline four than the 3000gt's bi*** of a transverse v6 haha plus the tranny is too weak to build past the stock 9b turbos plussss its heavy as hell. Beautiful car though, i just want something that doesnt take me 35345 hours to change some damn spark plugs, pull injectors, check compression, or to see the back of my motor.

Plus since its an SL not a vr4 the tunning is hard and if i want a tt motor (even though its basically the same as the N/A) i would have to replace the engine harness and ecu then get a piggy back or new stand a lone for that! TT the SL seems like a nightmare, i think building a simple I4 car thats already turbo'd would be easier, a 3000 more of a hell than a dsm in my opinion haha

 

[livedsm4g63]

Got to love changing those spark plugs. Easier to work on yes however, things will still break when you send more power to the wheels. If you build it right, you wont break. Use the search bar for all your questions. Or google it.

 

[rambow70]

Got to love changing those spark plugs. Easier to work on yes however, things will still break when you send more power to the wheels. If you build it right, you wont break. Use the search bar for all your questions. Or google it.

True, i was hoping for one stop shopping for information ha but thanks, i just wanted to list all the issues i have with my car to see if a dsm would have just as many issues that i should be aware about.

 

[livedsm4g63]

Just as many, just easier to work on.

 

[Clinical]

I suppose I'll try to do some spoon feeding.

I was wondering how much power does a stock motor handle?

It has been proven to hold upwards of 700whp - however I wouldn't trust the average joe with that much power on a stock block.
I'd figure about 400-500whp is where I'd draw the line for myself. Approaching 500whp I'd really want a built bottom end. It's all in how well the car is set up and especially how well it's tuned.

What do i need to reinforce in the engine to handle that can handle 320-400whp (like just gaskets, rods, pistons, studs, stock head? stock crank?)

Nothing really. The block/head are both good from the factory for upwards of 400whp.
However I will say perhaps some ARP headstuds would be my only thing I'd really want. That said people have done fine to those power levels on the stock headstuds but your chance of the studs stretching and blowing a headgasket are higher than if you had some ARPs. Shooting for the 400whp mark, a set of 272 cams and springs&retainers would likely be very beneficial but still - not required. My old talon I never had a dyno but based on my 1/2 mile and off DSMLink Estimations (estimated 410hp) I figure I was around 350whp and I had a bone stock 6bolt motor & head running a 20g @ 22psi on 91 octane.

Also how is the awd tranny in these cars? Will a simple rebuild allow me to run that kind of power and not give out quickly? (i never launch)

The transmissions despite a lot of people complaining about them, are very stout for stock transmissions. However the thing that kills them especially are hard/improper launches and people trying to "bang the gears". You can't slam gears in a DSM transmission like you do with a T56 for example. I learned that the hard way. Shift smooth and easy with a stock transmission and it'll hold plenty of power. But slamming gears is a good way to kill a stock trans fast.

Also is tuning easy on these cars?

By this question are you asking if the actual tuning of the car is difficult, or if there are good tuning options?
Well either way I'd say yes.
I'd say we have almost one of the best tuning solutions out there available for our cars - that being ECMLink. It is a fantastic user-friendly software with great capabilities for what it is. It still is pricey though. There are many other options though, all that are great - some that give you features others dont, or are more minimal but cheaper, stuff like AEM which is a full standalone and what you want if you're really going big.

Examples: ECMLink, Ostrich, ECUFlash, Piggybacks, Megasquirt, AEM, EProm Chip burning, MAF-T, - there are a couple more but thats off the top of my head..

Lastly what kind of turbos are popular on this platform? I know 16g is popular but its such an old turbo and i kind of want to make a little more than 320.

Just because it's old doesn't mean it's bad. The 16g is a proven turbo with great potential, and it's still a cheap upgrade (if you buy used). They are super stout (look how many of them survive 100k+ miles).
That said, 320whp is not the end of potential for a 16g. I actually just bought my car that has a 16g on it, and rather than upgrade I'm going to push it and shoot for 11's out of it which would likely be beyond the 320whp mark.

That said, asking what turbos are popular is hard - because so many turbos are popular. However lets say you want to keep it cheap and stay with a mitsubishi flange turbo so you don't have to get a new manifold and all. 18g/20g are other popular ones. Then there's the BEP Adapter housings that let you bolt up a HX35/HX40/etc HX series turbo to the mitsu flange. Then a bit more expensive but still great turbos are the FP Mitsu hybrid turbos. FPH68T/FP Green/etc are all amazing turbos that can make great power.



I'm to lazy to quote the vendors part, but there's many.
ExtremePsi
Street Tuned Motorsports
JNZ Tuning
Import Evolution
Modern Automotive Performance
Forced Performance

there are many many more but those are the ones I've shopped at and never had an issue. Just avoid DSMGraveyard like the plague.

Anyways I can see where you're coming from about the 3kgt. They're basically like a DSM except 500x more difficult to work on. I think you'll enjoy a DSM, but don't expect it to be problem free by any means. Just mod and maintain it correctly. Don't take shortcuts, don't hackjob shit, do it right the first time.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Sell the 3K, get the DSM. Way more efficient tuning solutions, much less expensive to build and make fast, a hell of a lot less heavy, cheaper on insurance, and has more potential. I'm sure some 3S fanboys are going to pop in here and run off at the mouth but fact is this, there are more street driven 8 second DSMs than there are gutted race-car 3S in the 8's. We won't even mention Buschur, Shep, Rau, and all the others who were in the 7's and 6s. Or Tony/Bill who are in the mid 6's.



TL;DR version: Sell the 3k, get the DSM. Period.



Edit: Clinical dropped the knowledge on you. Read his post.

 

[McDizle]

Just as many, just easier to work on.

Exactly, and all you're questions can be found by just searching. There's probably dozens of threads for each question. But to help you out a little here's a link to the forums supporting vendors. I like STM a lot. Stay away from DSM Graveyard though. Just search the forum for reviews and you'll know why. Good luck!

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/vendors

 

[rambow70]

I suppose I'll try to do some spoon feeding.

It has been proven to hold upwards of 700whp - however I wouldn't trust the average joe with that much power on a stock block.
I'd figure about 400-500whp is where I'd draw the line for myself. Approaching 500whp I'd really want a built bottom end. It's all in how well the car is set up and especially how well it's tuned.

Nothing really. The block/head are both good from the factory for upwards of 400whp.
However I will say perhaps some ARP headstuds would be my only thing I'd really want. That said people have done fine to those power levels on the stock headstuds but your chance of the studs stretching and blowing a headgasket are higher than if you had some ARPs. Shooting for the 400whp mark, a set of 272 cams and springs&retainers would likely be very beneficial but still - not required. My old talon I never had a dyno but based on my 1/2 mile and off DSMLink Estimations (estimated 410hp) I figure I was around 350whp and I had a bone stock 6bolt motor & head running a 20g @ 22psi on 91 octane.

The transmissions despite a lot of people complaining about them, are very stout for stock transmissions. However the thing that kills them especially are hard/improper launches and people trying to "bang the gears". You can't slam gears in a DSM transmission like you do with a T56 for example. I learned that the hard way. Shift smooth and easy with a stock transmission and it'll hold plenty of power. But slamming gears is a good way to kill a stock trans fast.

By this question are you asking if the actual tuning of the car is difficult, or if there are good tuning options?
Well either way I'd say yes.
I'd say we have almost one of the best tuning solutions out there available for our cars - that being ECMLink. It is a fantastic user-friendly software with great capabilities for what it is. It still is pricey though. There are many other options though, all that are great - some that give you features others dont, or are more minimal but cheaper, stuff like AEM which is a full standalone and what you want if you're really going big.

Examples: ECMLink, Ostrich, ECUFlash, Piggybacks, Megasquirt, AEM, EProm Chip burning, MAF-T, - there are a couple more but thats off the top of my head..


Just because it's old doesn't mean it's bad. The 16g is a proven turbo with great potential, and it's still a cheap upgrade (if you buy used). They are super stout (look how many of them survive 100k+ miles).
That said, 320whp is not the end of potential for a 16g. I actually just bought my car that has a 16g on it, and rather than upgrade I'm going to push it and shoot for 11's out of it which would likely be beyond the 320whp mark.

That said, asking what turbos are popular is hard - because so many turbos are popular. However lets say you want to keep it cheap and stay with a mitsubishi flange turbo so you don't have to get a new manifold and all. 18g/20g are other popular ones. Then there's the BEP Adapter housings that let you bolt up a HX35/HX40/etc HX series turbo to the mitsu flange. Then a bit more expensive but still great turbos are the FP Mitsu hybrid turbos. FPH68T/FP Green/etc are all amazing turbos that can make great power.



I'm to lazy to quote the vendors part, but there's many.
ExtremePsi
Street Tuned Motorsports
JNZ Tuning
Import Evolution
Modern Automotive Performance
Forced Performance

there are many many more but those are the ones I've shopped at and never had an issue. Just avoid DSMGraveyard like the plague.

Anyways I can see where you're coming from about the 3kgt. They're basically like a DSM except 500x more difficult to work on. I think you'll enjoy a DSM, but don't expect it to be problem free by any means. Just mod and maintain it correctly. Don't take shortcuts, don't hackjob shit, do it right the first time.

Thank you and yea basically i want an easier car to work on. I thought tt my 3k would provide a better power band and wouldn't be too hard but the tuning is a bi*** and its just so hard to work around shit.

 

[rambow70]

So i think i am going to buy a 1990 eagle talon tsi awd. I found one local for extremely cheap, however it does not run. It has 140k miles and the owner says the engine and tranny are fine but it needs a battery, alternator, and new ecu.

He has an ecu in it and an eprom ecu. I do not understand why he cannot start it (he didnt say). He claims it just needs just needs a new alternator and maybe a ecu? I dont get it.

I am going to his place Friday to look at the car. If i bring a battery fully charged could and try both the ecu's shouldn't i be able to turn the starter motor? If the starter motor does not work then its a bad ecu? and if it does work but it does not turn over then it could be a bad ecu and or something else?

Anyone's thoughts?

 

[Bud92gsx]

Ecu is probably bad..Take a battery or,jumper cables, and an ecu..Try jumping it first to see if its just dead..Then try the different ecu..Ecu being bad is common to cause a no start.

 

[HatchFiend]

Clinical, thank you very much for the information that you've posted. This makes me feel a TON better about buying my '92 Talon. I'm extremely new to the DSM world (Honda B-Series fan beforehand) so still getting my feet wet. It's nice to know that these things can handle such a beating and continue going on. I'm looking forward to keeping my car and slowly building it as time goes on (and my daughter gets older so she quits eating a hole in my wallet... !).

Good luck on the buy Rambow!

 

[rambow70]

Ecu is probably bad..Take a battery or,jumper cables, and an ecu..Try jumping it first to see if its just dead..Then try the different ecu..Ecu being bad is common to cause a no start.

Sounds simple but wait!! Where can i borrow a ecu by friday? haha ughhh makes me nervous on buying it.

Also someone told me that the 90 has different sensors and plugs on it than any other year of 1g cars, is this true?

Nvm i found it, i don't think im going to buy the car.

 

[Bud92gsx]

I suppose I'll try to do some spoon feeding.

I think You sound honest,or at least more than halfway legit so here pal.
Lets hope you can post here, Indianapolis Area DSM Forum - DSM Forums Hope thats not too far.

Or Heres the broader list of local areas with either someone willing to help a stranger. Great Lakes Region DSM - DSM Forums

You'll want to read this by friday DSM 4G63 Maintenance Guide - DSMtuners - Mitsubishi Eclipse, Eagle Talon, Plymouth Laser, 4G63t, and 420A Information

Ecu part numbers are here Eclipse Talon Laser Galant 3000GT Stealth ECU ID Reference

90 ecu has been beat to death by 2014

To run, as in start the car, you don't have to do anything.

Swapping 6 and 14 are required to get the car to idle correctly so that the ECU sees the IPS and can reset the MAF.

As you point out the change from the 90 PTM to a 91+ PTM is to make the factory tachometer work correctly. You can also try to find one of the modules Jeff O used to make and add it to your ECU or the wiring harness. It also fixes the problem.

Good luck

 

[d1978]

Whatever dsm you buy... please, please shop around and take the advise of the other members they are proven and know exactly what to look for.

 

[boosting88]

I say get the dsm. I owned a 93 and 94 3kgt and a 97 gst and now my beautiful 97 gsx. And let me tell you so much easier and rewarding to work and own a dsm. Stuff gets pricey though in a matter of 3-4 months I have spent 5k on upgrades and maintenance. Re evaluate your life. Do u have the money for this hobby to do it right the first time? Some people like to "mod" cars and just don't have the money too and their cars get short cuts taken and it ends up being a fail. If u don't have money like that buy a running car and just drive it . If u have the doe get the dsm and build it proper once. Or else shit will break and u will have to replace the same part twice. Either way it's going to be pricey. Also Extremepsi.com hands down is the best. Best prices, no shipping cost, and point system.

 

[Gains412]

definitely get the dsm.. much more potential for future upgrades and look so much sexier

 

[Bloodmoon]

You would have been better off just buying the 3kgt vr4. they're pretty common where i'm from and they're stock TT. plus they're not too much of a pain to work on