Thinking about buying a holset. Need advice

[dsm-onster]

What is the compressor inducer diameter of that 7blade hx40. There's a few 7blade and 6blade hx40s with a 56mm inducer. . . Still god enough for your goal, IMHO. But noone has run one of these to see whether or not they can make over 500whp. So they are untested.

Damn, im confused now.

I think a HX-40 is the way to go for me. But which one do I want to find if I plan on running the BEP mitsu housing. I have been trying to find a 7-blade so i get the billet wheel, because that seemed the best out there. I haven't been able to figure out which models had that though.

After reading this, do I understand right you are saying the more common 8 bladed HX-40 is best in the BEB housing?

If I do a HX-40, I want the best config for spool. If I have to go HX-35, then I would worry more about flow.

Does that make sence?

I was compairing the 60lb/min hx35 to the 8blade hx40, since the compressors are similar in flow. . .

The turbine makes the difference on whether or not you can use the bolton housing. The bolton housing with the hx40 turbine wheel flows enough to reach the potential of 60lb/min. An hx35 turbine wheel with the bep bolton housing would be hard pressed to get such flow out of a compressor.

So don't go get an hx35 with the 7 blade 60lb/min compressor and use a bolton housing expecting to get 60lb/min out of it. You will have the same spool speed as the 8blade 52 lb/min hx35 and you will be able to flow up to the mid 50s in lb/min airflow. Now it could be POSSIBLE the hx35 turbine wheel and the bolton housing can allow the motor to extract more flow than that from the compressor, but you would be better off with a later spooling 8blade hx40 if you want the fpred/60-1 60lb/min flow potential. The spool speed will be about 500rpms later, right at 4K.

Now if you have opted for a t3 flanged non-divided runner manifold (the most common t3 manifold) and you have the money to buy or experice to build a custom vband o2 housing, then the t3 12cm^2 stock hx35 turbine housing with the hx35 turbine wheel probably flows enough to reach the potential of the 7blade 60lb/min hx35 compressor. So you could buy the bolton housing and the 7blade hx35 and have a 490whp turbo, then later down the road swap back to the stock hx35 turbine housing, and get a t3 manifold and o2 housing to have a 570whp turbo. The spool will be about the same as the 8blade hx40 in the bep bolton housing, very low 4K.

So all the holset turbos that fit your criteria you stipulated in your first post:

hx35 8blade w/ bolton housing: bolton, +20psi by 3500ish rpms, compressor and turbine will be about maxed out at your goal
hx35 7blade w/ bolton housing: bolton, +20psi by 3500ish rpms, turbine will be about maxed out at your goal
hx35 7blade w/ stock t3 turbine housing: need new manifold, need custom v-band O2 housing, +20psi by 4000ish rpms, will be good to about 580whp
hx40 8blade w/ bolton housing: bolton, +20psi by 4000ish rpms, compressor good for about 580whp turbine good for over 650whp.
hx40 60mm compressor w/ bolton housing: bolton +20psi by 4000ish rpms, compressor and turbine good for over 650whp.

The best route would be any hx40 in the bep bolton houinsg. As many have said, it is within your spool speed criteria, and it will not be pushed too hard to reach your goal. It will also net more hp per psi, which is paramount for good pumpgas results. The most affordable would be the 8blade hx40 with the bep bolton housing. The 60mm hx40s are getting more expensive on ebay and they are capable of +150hp over your goal, so I think the price difference wold be a waste. The wh1e (58mm 8blade compressor) would work here too. It will bolt into the hx40 bolton housing and spool/flow the same on both ends. This would be even more affordable, if you can find one.

So I recommend the 8blade hx40. The turbo will not be overworked, so a long service life. You have about 80whp room to grow, with it still spooling to full boost at about 4100rpms. If you get crazy down the road, you can upgrade the hx40 compressor to the 60mm compressor and add +70whp to it's potential.

 

[Iroc_g]

Thank you for the detailed explanation. That answered the question, and annother I was getting ready to ask.

My plan is to find a 40. I will shoot for a super 7blade, but buy what I find for a good value. Seems like the 7blade upgrade is about 250 if I ever need it.

Can you tell me what a reasonable price is for a used 8 blade 40 and 7 blade 40? The one I am looking at turns out to be an 8 blade, but he does have a bep with it.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Im curious what people are realistically getting for tuned 93 octane numbers.
How hard would it be to push 450awhp consistently on a pump gas tune without meth injection?
Talking either hx35 or hx40 here...

My motors getting built now, in addition to my current mods list there will be wiseco/eagle combo 9:1 CR,oringed block,bc springs retainers ( redline bumped to 8500ish)
going to have jmf race smim, bigger Tb, switching to kelford 272s, no boost/exhaust leaks, and only going to be running 93 octane on whatever holset turbo I end up with.
HX35 or 40 doesnt matter ( BEP housing) I just want 450awhp end goal on 93 octane, if it can safely squeeze more on 93 then fine but 450 is the target, though Im assuming most people are hard pressed to reach those numbers on straight 93, but I could be wrong I never been that far...
I saw good numbers on that Holset results thread but most of those guys had either meth injection or some form of race gas for their numbers.

 

[dsm-onster]

I see the hx40 doing that. Honestly most run more than pumpgas because they can afford to buy things like water injection and push it farther. The hx40 with the bolt on housing can do the most with pumgas. It does spool as fast as a typical 50-trim. These turbos are simply just starting to be really used.

Why don't you want to use water injection? You're really limiting your boost level.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I see the hx40 doing that. Honestly most run more than pumpgas because they can afford to buy things like water injection and push it farther. The hx40 with the bolt on housing can do the most with pumgas. It does spool as fast as a typical 50-trim. These turbos are simply just starting to be really used.

Why don't you want to use water injection? You're really limiting your boost level.

Im not aiming for a particular boost level and I just never been that interested in messing with water injection. Since this car is no longer a daily driver, Im going to play with ethanol for a little while for as long as I still have this e316g on to see what I can do with it at the track/dyno when the new motors done. Though Im not going to continuously run e85 though as its a 120mile round trip for me,(ill be filling/storing extra gas bins of e85 due to distance) as there are no future plans of moving it to my city. Ive already planned out the rest of the upgrades for this car with cost factored in and Im stopping my endeavors with this Dsm at 450awhp give or take a few, I dont want to get to the point of constant drivetrain worries.
Thanks for the insight as usual.

 

[dsm-onster]

Another option for all turbos, is investing in decent t3 flanged manifold. Then you can run the larger turbine housings. The hx35 with the 12cm^2 turbine housing in an open header would likely have no issue reaching this goal, with it's much less backpressure into the cylinder and much more flow out the turbine. Or you could run the bep .70a/r turbine housing with the hx40 and guarantee enough flow for your goal on pumpgas, and then some more.

Another option is the FP turbine housing cut for the hx35 turbine wheel. Ii atleast will be a bolton to the exhaust manifold. No one has done this on the hx35, so we don't know if the hx35 turbine wheel and FP30 turbine housing flows enough for 450whp with pumpgas. If you're looking at this option, remember to use the FP30 manifold for journal bearing turbos not BB turbos, since the hlset turbine wheel sits in a turbine housing deeper than a GTBB turbo.

But you will need an o2 housing for either plan. Which would be an opgrade and help you reach your goal, more turbine flow = more flow per psi = good for pumpgas. Still, the bolton BEP housing has an outlet hole that is 2 5/8" in diameter. You will have to do a bit of porting even on the evo3 manifold to get a port match. And still there will be a reduction in diameter as the gases go through the o2 housing to the down pipe. You should be looking at an 02 housing upgrade regardless of turbo choice. Especially for pumpgas numbers that demand good flow.

You know, Mike1992 ran 11.2 @ 126 with only 28psi. With the little BEP bolton housing. This is definately in the 450-500whp range. You will have to ask him what his timing looked like. But, know that pumpgas can get away with more timing retard and not lose so much power. Look at Buschur's various pumpgas results. Big boost more timing retard. Pumpgas burns faster than race gas so MBT is much less advanced anyway.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Another option for all turbos, is investing in decent t3 flanged manifold. Then you can run the larger turbine housings. The hx35 with the 12cm^2 turbine housing in an open header would likely have no issue reaching this goal, with it's much less backpressure into the cylinder and much more flow out the turbine. Or you could run the bep .70a/r turbine housing with the hx40 and guarantee enough flow for your goal on pumpgas, and then some more.

Another option is the FP turbine housing cut for the hx35 turbine wheel. Ii atleast will be a bolton to the exhaust manifold. No one has done this on the hx35, so we don't know if the hx35 turbine wheel and FP30 turbine housing flows enough for 450whp with pumpgas. If you're looking at this option, remember to use the FP30 manifold for journal bearing turbos not BB turbos, since the hlset turbine wheel sits in a turbine housing deeper than a GTBB turbo.

But you will need an o2 housing for either plan. Which would be an opgrade and help you reach your goal, more turbine flow = more flow per psi = good for pumpgas. Still, the bolton BEP housing has an outlet hole that is 2 5/8" in diameter. You will have to do a bit of porting even on the evo3 manifold to get a port match. And still there will be a reduction in diameter as the gases go through the o2 housing to the down pipe. You should be looking at an 02 housing upgrade regardless of turbo choice. Especially for pumpgas numbers that demand good flow.

You know, Mike1992 ran 11.2 @ 126 with only 28psi. With the little BEP bolton housing. This is definately in the 450-500whp range. You will have to ask him what his timing looked like. But, know that pumpgas can get away with more timing retard and not lose so much power. Look at Buschur's various pumpgas results. Big boost more timing retard. Pumpgas burns faster than race gas so MBT is much less advanced anyway.

Thanks. I will look into the different housings, I saw this thread before
Holset HX40 in a FP30 series turbine housing! - DSM Forums: Mitsubishi Eclipse, Plymouth Laser, and Eagle Talon Forum: DSMtalk.com
but Im not going to complicate things too much as the BEP is a no brainer.

I have the FP race exhaust manifold, and the punishment 2.5 recirculated o2 housing and I am already running a 38mm external waste gate. Didn't want to deviate too much from those parts, and as far as tuning timing I wouldnt have a problem with that, I just need a little road time. Im pretty sure the timing is going to be lowish due to the new motor will be a 9:1 compression vs my stock 6bolt. I am going to get the jmf race intake mani and 3in TB as I know those two parts may be needed to reach the pump gas goals. Swapping out to the Kelford cams from these weak sauce BC272's should help quite a bit also from what Ive saw in the cam testings. I managed to get away with 25-26psi and 11.3 afr and up to 19degs of timing by redline on 93 octane with the 16g so Im going to aim for that same afr and boost on the holset with whatever necessary timing changes and see what I can make of it.

Do you have any links to buschurs pump gas results? I know he did 600hp before but I think that was in a Evo, not sure how it pertains to my case though?

 

[dsm-onster]

His results are around. Yes they are evo motors. It pertains because it shows that having more timing retard with pump gas doesn't mean that you loose lots of power. And it does show that you can run lots of boost on pumpgas. . . I was jsut stating that you don't have to say, "I can't run X boost because I ahve to pull 5more degrees of timing not to knock." because pumpgas burn rates are much faster at such high boost levels than factory boost and flow anyway.

 

[Black_Bullet]

His results are around. Yes they are evo motors. It pertains because it shows that having more timing retard with pump gas doesn't mean that you loose lots of power. And it does show that you can run lots of boost on pumpgas. . . I was jsut stating that you don't have to say, "I can't run X boost because I ahve to pull 5more degrees of timing not to knock." because pumpgas burn rates are much faster at such high boost levels than factory boost and flow anyway.

Oh ok, yea Im pretty familiar with that kind of tuning.

Id assume, Bushars cars have a lot more dyno time, money and research poured into them than what most of us have considered. I think another reason he can make such high numbers is for one; his super efficient race fmic setup. The results I read on that were desireable. Also he has a huge turbo and exhaust housing and Im sure hes' making his numbers by revving out real high with big cams/ manifold etc to keep the air flow coming in strong as with pump gas the lack of timing can sometimes be acceptable as long as theres a high(er) airflow number to compensate, since you cant take advantage of all the mechanical efficiency with tuning timing/afr and high compression due to knock...

Anyways the hx40 doesnt sound like a bad idea. Going with the bigger turbo will make sense in making the pump gas numbers climb higher.
I guess I originally didnt know whether the compressor flowed well enough to make good "pump gas" numnbers on the 35, I always assumed the BEP housing was the first limitation? Idk, maybe I can find a hx40 around the same prices as the hx35's Ive previously seen on ebayt?