the REVERSE of shaft play

[Herbal]

okay guys, first post on here, familiar with automotive forum procedure though so i HAVE searched this but it's kinda weird.

i have a 14b that was stripped off a scrapper years ago, it hasn't been attached to a car in 5+ years and who knows how long it sat before that, dunno why the car was scrapped.

i may need to use this turbo, or find another 14b, first step, check for shaft play no?

zero shaft play is evident, nada in out up down tight. my problem? it spins a lil hard.

i've had a couple dsm friends take a look at it locally and the general consensus is "it's a bit tight" for their liking.

now,, since it's sat for so long i put some oil through the return line. at first the turbo was a making a faint noise on the hotside(rubbing the housing?) and also seemed to have a spot in it's rotation that it stuck a bit, now a couple days later the noise is gone completely and the tight spot is arguably gone. by arguably gone i mean if i use my finger to spin the compressor by pushing a blade at a time, i feel nothing. if i use a socket on the nut on top of the compressor wheel, i can feel it takes just a lil less torque, but it MAY be my fingers changing shape and thus generating more/less torque. in any case it's very very slight.

soo, before i swap this turbo onto my 4g, what should i do to do it right and make sure this turbo is good?? i wanna make it to the shootout!!

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Dissassemble it and find out what's wrong with it! Then buy a rebuild kit off Ebay and rebuild it. It's not hard at all. The seller "Kamak" sells really high quality parts for dirt cheap.


http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...303828-td05h-td06-turbo-rebuild-part-1-a.html
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...303829-td05h-td06-turbo-rebuild-part-2-a.html

 

[Fabian]

if its been sitting for a long time I would definitely do a rebuild. Plus you have no clue what kind of hell the turbo could have possibly gone through. The oil seals could be rotted out and you'd be doing all the work of installing it for nothing. Might as well rebuild and do it right the first time.

 

[Herbal]

Hmmm okay, tomorow it comes apart.

when you say "find out what's wrong with it" does this mean, you find it odd that journal bearings that have sat dry for several years may be a bit seized?

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Well, I don't find it odd. But, there is definitely a problem there. It should spin nice and smooth and not feel like it's catching on anything. It's possible for there to be some rust on the shaft that you may have to polish out. Everything else internal is replaced with a rebuild kit.

 

[brian9397gsx]

it may have oil coked inside thats probably why it is tight. definitely pull it apart id hate to throw it in then have a smoke show

 

[JusMX141]

About 90% of the time with old 14B's from higher-mileage cars, even if no shaft play is present the oil seal on the turbine side has seeped enough oil over time to allow a massive amount of coking to build up behind the heat shield (directly behind the turbine wheel). This carbon buildup will literally begin to force the heat shield to drag on backside of the turbine wheel, making the turbo feel "tight" as it spins.

It's a simple fix....very simple if you have access to a media blaster. Follow my rebuild procedure above and scrape as much loose carbon as possible then media blast the rest. Don't be afraid to media blast the entire center housing as it will be stripped of all parts for the rebuild. Be sure to clean the housing well when you're done to remove ANY leftover blasting media with a water-based degreaser, then flush the cartridge with water, and blow it dry with compressed air. Your turbo will be good as a new one.

When buying a rebuild kit, be sure to specify that you're rebuilding a 14B so they give you the proper parts kit. You'll need a kit for a flat-backed compressor wheel rather than the v-backed 16G/20G wheels....the compressor seal collar and oil shield are different.

when you say "find out what's wrong with it" does this mean, you find it odd that journal bearings that have sat dry for several years may be a bit seized?

If you suspect a dry cartridge to be causing the issue, flip the turbo over and fill the center housing with oil from the drain flange. Rotate the wheel a few times to allow the oil to fill the journals, then turn the turbo upright and allow it to drain into a pan. Check to see if the turbo spins more freely....if it does, you may have saved yourself the hassle of rebuilding.

 

[Herbal]

okey dokey, valid points. i'll check out that ebay seller and get back to here after it comes apart. THANKS

 

[knochgoon24]

Also, you pulled this off a scrap car. Why was it scrapped? Did the motor blow? I'd hate to put a turbo on my car that may be filled with metal shavings.

 

[Herbal]

About 90% of the time with old 14B's from higher-mileage cars, even if no shaft play is present the oil seal on the turbine side has seeped enough oil over time to allow a massive amount of coking to build up behind the heat shield (directly behind the turbine wheel). This carbon buildup will literally begin to force the heat shield to drag on backside of the turbine wheel, making the turbo feel "tight" as it spins.

It's a simple fix....very simple if you have access to a media blaster. Follow my rebuild procedure above and scrape as much loose carbon as possible then media blast the rest. Don't be afraid to media blast the entire center housing as it will be stripped of all parts for the rebuild. Be sure to clean the housing well when you're done to remove ANY leftover blasting media with a water-based degreaser, then flush the cartridge with water, and blow it dry with compressed air. Your turbo will be good as a new one.

When buying a rebuild kit, be sure to specify that you're rebuilding a 14B so they give you the proper parts kit. You'll need a kit for a flat-backed compressor wheel rather than the v-backed 16G/20G wheels....the compressor seal collar and oil shield are different.


If you suspect a dry cartridge to be causing the issue, flip the turbo over and fill the center housing with oil from the drain flange. Rotate the wheel a few times to allow the oil to fill the journals, then turn the turbo upright and allow it to drain into a pan. Check to see if the turbo spins more freely....if it does, you may have saved yourself the hassle of rebuilding.

well,, that's what's happened so far. and that's what i did, filled it through the return line, and with each day the faint noise it made on the hotside and the tightness has gotten better, strange that it took days though if there IS coking i bet the oil slowly soaking into it may have freed it up/made it slippery, as simple as you make it sound to do the rebuild i may do it anyways to be safer, i like this car and it's a freshly rebuilt engine, i'd like to keep it fressh. THANKS!

 

[Herbal]

okay i looked up that seller and i see the kit, it doesn't list a seperate kit for 14b's so i assume when i buy it i'll be given the chance to specify that it's for the 14b?

 

[JusMX141]

Just ask. If the seller doesn't offer a parts kit for a 14B you shouldn't be buying turbo parts from that vendor.

 

[Herbal]

i asked, no response yet, i went through that guy kamak.\

here's the deal

KAMAK Turbo Rebuild Mitsubishi TD05H TD06 16G 18G 20G:eBay Motors (item 220458473247 end time Aug-26-09 03:11:35 PDT)

 

[JusMX141]

Honestly there are only two parts that are different between the B and G kits- the compressor collar and the oil shield / backplate. These parts should have no wear at all on your turbo, they only wear on turbos with massive shaft play. You could get away with reusing the compressor collar and backplate; many basic rebuild kits don't include those two parts anyway. I was just trying to save you money by not having to pay for parts you don't need, but if you are paying for them you might as well get the right thing.

 

[Herbal]

okay, sounds good

 

[Herbal]

FINALLY got the thing apart today, jeez i need my own garage.

still havent finished pullin apart the center section and compressor but i seperated the manifold from the the hotside, the hotside from the chra, and the 02 housing from the hotside, all came apart real easy actually.

SO; my turbine wheel and all surrounding it is an oily mess, and the shield is making contact with the turbine wheel just as described above, but the blades all look intact

bad news is, i have cracks in the hotside from the wastegate on up, probably won't use this one.

still have the OTHER turbo that's already smoking on my car to pull apart, crossing my fingers for the hotside to be usable on it, if not i'll probably pick up a 7cm^ one.

 

[Herbal]

going tommorow to check out a cheap 16g, might rebuild it if it's looks cool , might just score the hotside, not sure yet!

 

[Herbal]

anyone order from kamak before? i paid a couple days ago but they haven't sent me an email or anything saying it was shipped or paid for or anything.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

anyone order from kamak before? i paid a couple days ago but they haven't sent me an email or anything saying it was shipped or paid for or anything.

Yes I have. Parts were delivered within a couple days.

 

[Herbal]

sweet good to know!

 

[Herbal]

okay we started the rebuild last niht but we hit a hang up.

we've checked several articles on turbo rebuild and many seem to disagree on the torque spec of the shaft nut that holds the com. wheel on.

when we tried to set it up last night we could easily with our fingers reach a point where it felt too hard to spin the turbine and compressor, OR we could leave it looser to let it spin easier except that the compressor wheel then wanted to spin on the shaft(why couldn't they put a key on it??). it was very difficult to find a middle ground where we felt the nut would not come off, and the compressor would stay put, yet the whole assembly would spin easily.

various articles set the torque at anywhere from 30-120 in/lb's. anybody have an idea? perhaps we didnt assemble it just right?? seems there is not much to assemble wrong and have it all still fit under the assorted snap rings.

 

[Herbal]

we got it fixed, used the wrong collar therefore the wheel was sitting on the oil shield, it spins freely now is well loctited, feel confident in it.

crossing my fingers that mhi turbos truly ARE component balanced, the scribe marks weren't done so well and they were gone after everything was cleaned, so the wheel is likely very far from where it was, we'll see if it lasts.

turbo is on the car. going on saturday to finish attaching the lines(other then the j-pipe got that setup tonight so the rtv can set up for awhille) oil feed is done. got oil and coolant, call it a wrap!

 

[Herbal]

the turbo i rebuilt lasted about 2.5 weeks, now the car is back to smoking like it did before. i checked it and there's no shaft play still so it's not dead, im guessing the seal/seals aren't seating quite right or something,

my question is, can i purchase JUST the seals? i dont think i need a whole nother rebuild kit, it's all fresh and clean in there now i just want to replace the seals.

any thoughts on what went wrong? car ran fine, actually still runs fine just smokey.

 

[JusMX141]

How are you oiling this turbo?

It sounds to me like it's getting too much oil pressure or something's wrong with your drain.

 

[Herbal]

well ACTUALLY, that reminds me it's about a about half a quart ovefilled, we put in cheap oil to get her going and i due to change it asap to some synthetic(what oil do you guys use? i was going to go with mobile1 synthetic) sound like it could do it? when we first started it up post rebuild the pressure was very high, 70+ psi on high idle.

it's being fed from the head, and the return line is a stocker that goes to the pan.