small16g with meth/water injection

[dirtysouthpinoy]

anyone running meth/water (50:50) with a small16g? what kind of power are you guys putting down? im planning to do 50:50 injection with devilsown kit

 

[JusMX141]

Should definitely aid in the ability to make power on pump gas- you're still going to run out of airflow in the early 20's of boost, limited to around 36 lb/min or 360ish crank horses. The fact that you can get that much out of a turbo which spools at near stock levels is quite astounding, however.

 

[turboglenn]

I was helping a tuners member/friend named "drdouglass" in testing and tuning a very similar setup (plain 16g, most other "basic mods" and meth injection kit) adn trying to make the most power we could out of what we had to work with, and although i can't recall everything perfectly, there's some info about it in my old thread called "offical: no intercooler + meth how well will it do" or soemthing like that but here's the simple version

We were using DSMlink (older one) and a basic devil's own kit , we tried different placements and nozzle sizes and our best results landed us running an M5 nozzle PRE-turbo (this effectively changes the compressor map becuase the intake air has been modified before the turbo got to do it's work to it )

With an m5 pre-turbo coming on at around 7psi IIRC we ended up netting an average of 26psi sometimes dropping to 24 by redline. Our AFR's were rather rich in the low 11's (which is honestly way too rich imo after years of playing with the stuff now days), we also were getting a timing curve slightly more agressive than a stock 1g curve, but with a little timing pulled out in the 4.5k RPM range where we kept battling a small onset of knock that would perpetuate if we didn't dial it out from the start

Using this setup we were reading just over 300HP via DSMlink (307 if i recall) where as with the meth after the turbo we were keeping a similar timing curve and AFR;s but were seeing a best of about 287hp via link's estimates. And although the power would flatten out rather early with the 16g there's something very nice to be said about an AWD car with such a quick spooling turbo putting down a solid output near the 300HP range, very fun indeed

But the best thing in either case was being able to run high boost levels and good amounts of timing in the middle of summer without knocking (at most we saw about 2-3* pulled before we dialed back the sliders in the 4.5k RPM range as mentioned earlier) after that the knock light (check engine) was set to coem on at 2* pulled and the only time we dealt with it poppin up was when we had run the resiviour low on methanol and we getting inconsistantflow.

Looking back if i hhad the same car in front of me today i'd probably shoot for AFR's in the 11.8 - 12:1 range, stick with the 1g timing map as a base and run the meth to water mix at 70/30 in favor of the methanol and see how it goes from there

alky injection is one hell of a great tuning aid/power adder, and if i didn't have e85 at my disposal i'd be running it to this day (and in fact the system is still in my car, wired and ready to be armed incase i'm somewhere there's no e85 available)

the best part of the results of Dan's car (drdouglass on here) was that his 16g was about shot (lots of play) when we made those numbers on it, and although they weren't dyno proven the seat of the pants feeling was great and i've found link to be pretty damn close to real world dyno numbers ( at least within reason of a few % at the lower numbers we're talking anyway, not sure if it goes off or gets closer when you get in the 400hp or so range though)

 

[ed_GST]

My water/meth results +29.13whp +33.69tq

That were my results not a small 16G but you have the idea
My mods are up to date

 

[casuprock]

Talk to kthackst, he's got a EVOIII 16G and is currently working with meth injection.

 

[turboglenn]

My water/meth results +29.13whp +33.69tq

That were my results not a small 16G but you have the idea
My mods are up to date

Wow.. I'm surprised how close the gains are from your changes compared to the ones we did on Dan's car, that's pretty cool to see such consistant results/gains between 2 seperate cars on different management both by just adding the meth injection.

Once i finish the intake pipeing (if i decide to keep this huge turbo) I may try and add some pre-turbo injection to see how well it helps with spool on a turbo this size. personally i've seen great gains on everything from a 14b to my old 57 trim using it not only post turbo but more impressively when used pre-turbo (which i never saw any signs of errosion from the water/alky mix, i think that would take many many miles/years to show anything note worthy). I'd really like to see what it could do on a blower this size.

not thread jacking, just trying to add some content based on my experiences as well as being rather impressed by almost identical gains

 

[dirtysouthpinoy]

hey glen what was the timing up top with dougs car? you said slightly more agressive then the 1g tables? From what i remember up top on 1g tables is around *24 at 6krpm then down to 20 at 6k+ thats already crazy high. Im getting excited if you got to run higher then *24 in the summer!

 

[turboglenn]

Ok, well maybe it wasn't crazy in comp[arison, but at least very close. I didn't think the 1g curve went quite to 24* here's how i had things set as far as advance per RPM under WOT pull in boost

At 3500 RPM timing was about 14* when you punched it, then as we ramped up to the 7200 RPM shift point i advnced it to exactly 24* at 7500, 6k RPM was set to 21* . The 14* was to eliminate knock, then i made 2* small jumps right after the initial OBD-II "timing drop" and then went up one degree per 500 RPM all the way to redline (i hate that timing drop it's probably 99% of why I went stand alone forever!! )

with the alky once i learned how it liked to be tuned on top of our gas around here i was getting great results out of..we were tuned to the range of about 12:1 at some points after the peak torque was passed on some of our final tuning days.. it really is a blast to push a small turbo.. it's so easy to crank up the wick knowing your AFR"s and timing are safe and you've got a big turbo, but working to squeeze a few more ponies out of a little 16g is a blast

IIRC the best reading he ever loggted (one time only) before he moved away was either 327 or 317 again this was via DSMlink and not actual dyno testing

 

[dirtysouthpinoy]

thanxs for the info turboglen! my goal is 350whp on a fwd. I think these small16gs are underestimated!

 

[turboglenn]

thanxs for the info turboglen! my goal is 350whp on a fwd. I think these small16gs are underestimated!

Anytime! I'm always glad to help when and where i can. I agree that most under estimate the 16g, but here on tuners i believe most know what's really hidden inside there that can be extracted out for some wicked fast cars/E.T.'s

If it weren't for my addiction to that non stop crazy top end i get out of the larger turbos i've been running the last 10+ years i'd LOVE to go back and put an EVO III 16g or even get an evo X turbo and put the 20gh wheel on it with a custom manifold. I do miss the wide powerband, but the wider i make it the more wheel spin i end up with. My current setup feels slower at first becuase there's no huge hit in first or 2nd gear, but onc ei'm in the top of third you get the prize you've been working your way up to

For me a lot of my reasoning is based around trying to get traction out of FWD setup (even with a good trans and LSD, once you're anywhere past 400hp on street tires it makes it feel like you're right back to a peg leg diff doing nothing more than destroying tires with each display of horse power you put on. With the larger laggier turbo it really is almost like traction control in 1st and 2nd since it only builds the amount of boost it needs to get the tires spinning just faster than the car, and instead of the massive torque hit breaking it loose in 3rd, dialing the timing back along with the added lag brings third on in a really linear fashion to where it almost starts to loose traction but hangs on and just pulls like mad. Although I enjoy it i do really want to stepback down to something smaller like an hx-35 (although it's not really considered small but in comparison there's a large difference) THis thing once it's on a flowing boost i'll be honest it scares mne to drive it on the street, i'd say without a doubt it's too much for the brakes and too intense to enjoy with there being any other cars in my vicinity

enough of my ramblings (sorry) if there's anything else ya need just hit me up

 

[dirtysouthpinoy]

I know what u mean about traction issues! I've pulled 2.0 60fts on shitty tires on this car though. I do plan to go with a bigger turbo in the future due to the addiction u get with dsms. I just wanna max out my 16g before I do. I will ###### go with a bigger laggier (20g or hx35) turbo just for fwd traction issue and do boost control by gear. My supporting mods will get me to atleast 450hp with a bigger turbo, I think thats when 2g pistons 1g big rods combo will start to hit that unknown limit. Will also get cams to move the powerband higher just for fwd. I do love fwd on highway pulls! But can't match that awd sink my eyeballs into
My head launches!

 

[turboglenn]

haha i feel ya... II didn't know you were fail-wheel-drive as well (one thing that makes ALMOST as much difference as being an AWD (at least in comparison from a "before and after" is adding a quaife LSD) the KAAZ diffs are ok, but more qsuited towards road course use, but the quaife is awesome, it's silent, never needs adjustment and you don't even kow it's there untill you step on the fun-pedal..probably the spookiest (and most fun once you get the hang of it) is changing lanes undersome good power with a helical gear LSD.. Yo9ur 16g on e85 with the boost maxed out the best you can run would be an insanely fun combo on the streets if you ask me..spiking 35 or so psi, trailing off to low to mid 20's by redline but with one hell of a torque curve would be oh so fun.. like i have said before secretly a part of me wants a DD 16g car that's maxed out for the turbo

I'm running a TRE 2.5 trans with quaife LSD and it makes it leaps and bounds better, but i know what ya mean about your eyes sinjking in your head. The turbo on my car was on a friends for probably under 100 miles for a street tune on the DD areas of the map and to rough it in for the dyno, then it went on the dyno and made some where around 672hp but boost control issues sprung up and killed further tuning

My point is, in my friends car (99 GSX) 1st and 2nd gear on this turbo felt like you were in a shopping cart on the highway and were then hit from behind by a semi-truck , on my FWD it's no where near as fun untill you're in the top of third.

I have been conidering buying a 1ga auto trans AWD shell i found with transmission but it's really not in my budget to do so because of injuries and other things that have turned my life around 180* from where it was about 5-6 years ago, but i still hope some day to convert this one to auto AWD or even just 5spd AWD. I have all the fabrication equi[pment and as long as i can get help on the stuff where i can't lift or physically do certain parts of the swap i believe one day this will be an awesome car. Two main reasons i want to go auto is most of my damage is to my left leg and lower spine so clutch pedlas with heavy feel kill me as well as getting the shifts coordinated (left leg to shift arm synched up right) but what would really be awesome about auto in my opinion is if i never had to let this turbo rebuild boost betweeen shifts i would be in heaven, I couldn't imagine a pull from 20MPH to 100MPH at the airflow this turbo puts out.. But to be honest on a street driven car if i had a seperate one to dedicate to DD duties i think an EVO III 16g with the flapper welded shut on e85 would be the most fun because of the super wide powerband

Even if i can't do the swap i hope to get a decent used pickup for a DD vehicle though and i think i would make my goal of trying to be one of the fastest 2gb FWD cars (at least within my realm of budget and available track attendance - which if i had a sponsor i could hit every event needed since i really can't work plus doing all my opwn fab, tuning and everything else would make it pretty cheap.. guess we all gota have dreams ya know )