Slipped Snapped Broken Timing Belt T-Belt [merged]

[aznerd11]

a few weeks ago, my car started idling poorly so i never started it since. i checked for vacuum leaks, but i then found it to be a problem with the timing belt. When i lifted the top cover, i noticed a rip on the belt and the belt off a few teeth on the exhaust sprocket. So now im in the process of changing it but now im stuck. Please see pictures.

rip
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/bboygenius016/tbelt011.jpg

off teeth on exhaust
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/bboygenius016/tbelt010.jpg

after 1/4 turn of the crank, the teeth lined up again, which made it skip some more
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/bboygenius016/tbelt012.jpg

how do i get the timing to TDC with the teeth off?- i started turning it softly but then i felt a restriction and it moved itself counterclockwise.
also how do i get the crank sprocket off without the tool?
This is on a 90 laser turbo

 

[DSMcrazy3]

heres a pic of the valves...it ws surprisingly not bad at all. at most 8 valves at least maybe 4. - we know for a fact the intake valves on cylinder 3, 4 are bent because we could see it. but the 4 other exhaust valves on 3, and 4 could be tweaked.

Good to hear, hopefully you'll get away with 4!

the car will be unrecognizable in a few weeks.

As long as it's still white

 

[Drift_SM]

^ of course

 

[95GrandPrixGTP]

That doesnt look that bad. I was also one of the lucky ones. My timing belt shredded when I was accelerating from a stop sign, and it only took 2 valves. Anyways...best of luck to you

 

[xioca]

well i'm about ready to pull the head off to fix my bent valves and i'm just wondering if my timing is lined up to begin with.

everything looks ok but the notches on the crank pulley..

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even though it may not look like it the arrow on the oil pump pulley is almost lined up perfect..

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this is my first time dealing with the t belt so it's better to be safe than sorry.. so is it lined up how it should be?

 

[brn2race96]

that looks about right,

go to vfaq.com fo rmore information on how to install a timing belt.

 

[hereitcomes]

ya..and thats something that you are going to want to get right. timing is a must on DOHC...especially with DSM.

 

[JessesTalon]

good job! dont forget to zip tie the timing belt to the cam gears

 

[PaulN]

I was driving home from work last night through this area of construction known as the narrows. I was going about 45 miles an hour in 4th gear when I feel the car bog down. I'm like hmm...so I down shift into third and it's worse. I look out the rearview and can see smoke. Before I can even get it pulled over to a stop it's dead. 1 hour later the car has been dropped off in my garage by AAA (God Bless them) and I pull the timing belt cover off. I had the wife crank it and the cam pullies aren't moving. Timing belt must have stripped some teeth at the crank pully or the balance shaft belt broke, tangled in the belt and caused the timing belt to strip. I'm not sure. I know the belt is still attached to the cams nice and tight.

The kicker is I just bought this car a month ago and the same thing happened to the previous owner not more than a month before I bought the car from him. He paid over $800 to have the head rebuilt and everything put back together. Why, less than two months later did the same thing happen? That's question 1.

So, here I am with a bone stock 1G that won't run. I know the engines turbo was on it's last leg since it blew smoke under boost. I know the engine has 155 compression across the board because two weeks ago my brother and I checked it out to determine the cause of the smoke under boost. The head was fresh, but chances are it's now ruined again.

The engine has 153,000 miles on it. This is my first DSM and I am wondering what I should do at this point based on everyone's DSM experience. Keeping in mind three facts: the compression was excellent, the turbo is in need of replacement, the timing belt has failed twice in less than 3 months

1) Put a used head on it and hope for the best

2) Yank the engine and rebuild it

3) Buy a used domestic/JDM engine with turbo and install it in the car

I don't have a ton of funds but my brother and I love to work on cars. We'll be doing all the work that we can out of my garage. I want this car to be reliable as I love driving it, it gets good gas mileage, and I eventually want to be able to hop it up a little here and there. I have 2 other road worthy vehicles so it can sit for as long as needed.

I am most intrigued by these used JDM engines that supposedly have so few miles on them and come pretty much complete, but again just looking for some advice.

 

[hereitcomes]

something in the crank area is chewing up belts. I dont think it wil be the cams as they are more of a guide for the belt than a mover. the crank is what really does the timing belt in. check for apparatus down there when the car is lifred...see if you can see anything poking out and would block the path of the belt.

as far as a new motor goes...its all entirely up to you and about your schedule/love for DSM/money/and what you plan on doing with the car. the "JDM" motors from old VR-4s and evo's are pretty outstanding as they push more hp than the US spec. ones. they are rated at 220.
good luck with your future path in DSM's

 

[Matrixhunter]

Wow that really is bad luck well anyways bases on my experience i would say that the previous owner made the one fatal mistake. Reusing the tensioners when the head was rebuilt. That probably what happened tensioner let go slightly and its skipped a few teeth you kept driving and then i completely failed. There are also a few other possibilites. I had a belt fail because a screw fell in the cover melted into the plastic and started eating up the belt. Sounds like something after the rebuild wasnt do right either the tensioners or the belts were put on to tight or to loose. You best bet is to either sell the car or if you really still want to keep it get a jdm engine with one year warranty on it and put it in yourself. Hope this helps

 

[PaulN]

Sell the car? WTF That wasn't one of my preferred 3 options.

The car is bone stock which is what I wanted. That to me is worth keeping the car, besides the interior being nearly perfect and 0 rust anywhere.

 

[PaulN]

If I were to go with a JDM motor, is this what I am looking for?

http://www.jdmsource.ca/v2/product.asp?ID=40

And is it a direct swap in?

 

[gurmanator]

I you guys like working on cars and know your way around a car the I would find the problem and fix it.I lucked out and didnt bend any valves.A t-belt is $40,fix head about $200.00.gasket kit -$160.00,beer???

 

[project_tsi]

You need invest in a balance shaft elim kit. It may be your problem, it was mine. See, my Balance shaft bearing spun inside my block, and was putting A LOT of stress on my timing components to move the hard turning shaft. Ended up doing about the same thing as your symptoms are.

So, If you have the time, I suggest looking into this situation as you might find it to be your problem. If you need more help, let me know. I will be glad to help.

 

[PaulN]

I have no doubt it was something on the lower half of the engine that caused the problem. Not sure what it was but I looked at it better today and the timing belt has 1 inch long gouges along the back edge of the belt spaced about .5 inches apart. Something is amiss down there that's for sure.

The question remains. Do I repair this engine via redoing the head, and timing belt. Rebuild the engine, or just drop in a JDM? I don't know what to do.

 

[project_tsi]

I have no doubt it was something on the lower half of the engine that caused the problem. Not sure what it was but I looked at it better today and the timing belt has 1 inch long gouges along the back edge of the belt spaced about .5 inches apart. Something is amiss down there that's for sure.

The question remains. Do I repair this engine via redoing the head, and timing belt. Rebuild the engine, or just drop in a JDM? I don't know what to do.

Im not too big of a fan of JDM engines, just b/c you don't know where it has been, etc.

I honestly don't feel that the engine needs rebuilt either, you just need to figure out the problem, and fix it, b/c obviously it was not fixed the first time around, which leads me to believe that it could be a spun balance shaft bearing inside the block. Those can be fixed.

So still, I strongly suggest pulling the engine and doing some investigating work to pin point the problem and fix it. I don't feel the engine needs to be replaced or rebuilt unless you have low compression, or bearings are shot, or pistons damaged, etc. Not b/c it is throwing timing belts.

 

[PaulN]

At 152,000 miles, even with good compression, how much longer will my engine last? I am willing to do the work, but I don't want it to be for nothing so to speak.

So your suggesting that I pull the engine and find the source of the problem aqnd fix it rather than buy aused engine or rebuild my current engine. Okay, sounds good. Would you also recommend a side from replacing the balance shaft elimination kit, new tensioner pulley and crank pulley that I also install a new oil pump and water pump? What else should I do with the engine out? I figure new new clutch, throwout bearing etc, I really don't want to keep yanking the engine every couple of months.

So what do you think I am looking at to have the head reworked $$ wise? All I'll potentially need is new valves and seals right? Can they be installed right in my garage or is this something a machinist needs to do?

This might not be too bad...my brother and I just did a timing belt on my sisters 1997 Civic DX and I have done timing belts on a 1987 Sentra and 1989 Dodge Dynasty before. My brother has done a Toyota and just built a SB Chevy 350 and installed it in a an S-10. I think we can do the work, I just want to do the right work.

 

[RoasT BeeF]

Are you sure there isnt oil getting on the belt somewhere? If oil gets on the belt it weakens it and will strip teeth.

 

[wolf20043]

I have no doubt it was something on the lower half of the engine that caused the problem. Not sure what it was but I looked at it better today and the timing belt has 1 inch long gouges along the back edge of the belt spaced about .5 inches apart. Something is amiss down there that's for sure.

The question remains. Do I repair this engine via redoing the head, and timing belt. Rebuild the engine, or just drop in a JDM? I don't know what to do.

I would check first and foremost to make sure someone did not put the longer oil pan bolts right below the crank and it is not chewing at the belt.
Mike

 

[project_tsi]

At 152,000 miles, even with good compression, how much longer will my engine last? I am willing to do the work, but I don't want it to be for nothing so to speak.

So your suggesting that I pull the engine and find the source of the problem aqnd fix it rather than buy aused engine or rebuild my current engine. Okay, sounds good. Would you also recommend a side from replacing the balance shaft elimination kit, new tensioner pulley and crank pulley that I also install a new oil pump and water pump? What else should I do with the engine out? I figure new new clutch, throwout bearing etc, I really don't want to keep yanking the engine every couple of months.

So what do you think I am looking at to have the head reworked $$ wise? All I'll potentially need is new valves and seals right? Can they be installed right in my garage or is this something a machinist needs to do?

This might not be too bad...my brother and I just did a timing belt on my sisters 1997 Civic DX and I have done timing belts on a 1987 Sentra and 1989 Dodge Dynasty before. My brother has done a Toyota and just built a SB Chevy 350 and installed it in a an S-10. I think we can do the work, I just want to do the right work.

Paul, at 152,xxx miles its not for sure your engine needs a rebuild. Once again, thats not the main issue here, its your car throwing t-belts thats the problem, but I will go over the engine rebuild idea with you.

If you have the extra money and can afford to rebuild the engine, then definetly do it. It will be more reliable, have more compression, and last longer if done correctly. Depending on your budget and goals for the car you can choose to have forged internals put into the block for some high HP peace of mind. If not, there is nothing at all wrong w/ any OEM rebuild. Stock 6 bolts have made 500 hp many times, and Buschur has mad over 700 hp on stock 6 bolt rods a time or two.

About your rebuild question. Yes, I would definetly 100% reccomend putting in a new timing cover, along w/ new oil pump gears, new water pump, and replace all the seals, the timing pulleys, tensioners, and a new hydraulic tensioner. Its easy peace of mind to do. Besides, you probably don't even know when the last water pump or oil pump service was, and at 152,xxx miles, just do it.

Other things to do to the engine. Replace every seal and gasket in the engine that you can. Including gaskets in the head, manifolds, t-body, valve seals, etc. Everything you can. A complete gasket kit from Fel-Pro ended up costing me $100. If you plan on boosting 15 psi or higher, a MLS Mitsu or Cometic Head Gasket and a set of ARP head studs should def. be on order for the rebuild.

While the tranny is out, a clutch is a great idea if its showing signs of wear, or once again, if you plan on making any extra power. Invest in a new clutch kit, wheather it be stock, or ACT 2100 or 2600, or similar and it wil come w/ a new Throw out bearing, and alignment tool to do the job right, and don't forget to get the flywheel resurfaced and correctly stepped for the new clutch. This will run you about $40 give or take.

Now for the head, depending on its condition it can be made ready to roll for fairly cheep. New valve seals are def. MUST, and although they can be put in by yourself, the time it takes to do the work is too long for me to want to do. I just took my head to a local machine shop and for $20 he replaced all my valve seals. Not to bad if you ask me. Be carefull when removing the ex. manifold as you will probly snap off a few studs in the head and will need the machine shop to get those out for you and replace them. Once again, doable by yourself, but too much of a pain in the ass for me.

Like you, I have done new timing jobs on old turbo dodge vehicles. The 2.2 and 2.5L's were fairly simple and not as complex to do as a DSM but don't be discouraged. Try finding a local DSM'er to come lend a hand and check over your work to be sure of correct work.

I can try my best to give you advice if you need it, don't hesitate to ask.

Hope this helps, Dan

 

[Fb90gsT]

I have a quick question.
Since the timing belt ripped and your valves hit your pistons, does it mean that your pistons got messed up?
My timing skipped recently and it bent all my intake valves, when I took the head off
you can see that the valves hit the pistons because it left a ridge on the piston.
Do the pistons still work.
By the way my compression was 165 across the board if that helps.
I hope they aren't messed up becasue I bearly bought those pistons and was breaking in my motor.

 

[Old Mitsu Tech]

Here's my 2 cents.

Mitsubishi has a long history of timing belt issues.

I've seen a few engines that did not bend valves. Darn few.
Of the ones that bent valves I have never had to replace a piston.

One turned loose at 6 grand. Engine was completely destroyed.
There's a cause and effect when it comes to these kinds of things.
Replacing the belt is just setting a new belt up for the cause to strike again.

Counter balancers sometimes and usually can start trying to seize up. This puts added stress on the timing belt. This and I wonder if the auto tensioner was replaced?
Do the belt, repair the head as necessary. Do a balance shaft elimination, replace the auto tensioner, water pump, idler pulleys.
Cross every t and dot every i and you have a very good chance of correcting what was missed on the last replacement.

Buy a factory manual and do the belt and head repairs following the manual to the letter.

All this is to help give you a long living belt that should last 60,000 miles. I have never had a belt give up early due to improper install. However I have had an idler puke within 5000 miles of the next change. That broke me from not changing idlers. You can buy a timing belt kit. This does not come with the auto tensioner. Get it from a dealer as it is cheaper than the after markets. At least in my area it is.

Good Luck

 

[PaulN]

Thanks everyone. I am going to yank the engine and do what OldMitsu and Projecttsi and a few others said to just resolve the timing belt issue for now since my bottom end seems to be in excellent condition. While the engine is out I will replace the water pump, install a balance shaft elimination kit, replace all the timing pullies and idlers, replace every seal/gasket I can get to, etc. One thing I noticed, Dan. You said to replace the oil pump gears. Does that mean I shouldn't just outright replace it? Is there a kit?

Do you guys recommend Haynes Service Manual for what I am about to embark on or Mitsu Shop Manuals? I see Old Mitsu says factory manual, so I guess that's the way to go if I can find one. I have always used Haynes and have never had any problems. I hate Chiltons on the other hand. Thoughts?

Anyhow, heres my list. Please let me know if I am missing anything:

Head Gasket
Engine Gasket Set
Water Pump
Kevlar Timing Belt (or should I go OEM?)
Balance Shaft Elimination Kit
New Valves and Seals for the Head
ARP Head Bolts
Oil Pump (or a service kit? I am confused here)
New Pullies (Can someone specify exactly which pullies to replace? Both Cam gears? The Crank Pully? The idler/tensioner pully? Is there more?)
ACT Clutch Kit
Braided Clutch Line since it's out
Timing Cover
Resurface FlyWheel

If anyone wants to chime in where they have found good deals for the above parts I will be most grateful.

Also, since I know I had a turbo problem should I rebuild the stock turbo or replace it? Is it hard to rebuild a turbo? Maybe this should be another issue in itself. Going to search through VFAQ.....

Everyone that has helped so far thank you so much! The internet is such a wonderful resource because of people like you. I very much appreciate your help. Happy THanksgiving everyone!!

 

[PaulN]

WOW
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185236

 

[SinaiTSi]

I have a quick question.
Since the timing belt ripped and your valves hit your pistons, does it mean that your pistons got messed up?
My timing skipped recently and it bent all my intake valves, when I took the head off
you can see that the valves hit the pistons because it left a ridge on the piston.
Do the pistons still work.
By the way my compression was 165 across the board if that helps.
I hope they aren't messed up becasue I bearly bought those pistons and was breaking in my motor.

Same exact thing happened to me. I too was too worried if I needed to replace my pistons because I really don't have the time or money to do that right now. What it seems
Old Mitsu Tech is saying though is that you or I most likely won't have to which is good news. Let me know if you find out if that is definitely true because I have the same problem as you.