Slipped Snapped Broken Timing Belt T-Belt [merged]

[aznerd11]

a few weeks ago, my car started idling poorly so i never started it since. i checked for vacuum leaks, but i then found it to be a problem with the timing belt. When i lifted the top cover, i noticed a rip on the belt and the belt off a few teeth on the exhaust sprocket. So now im in the process of changing it but now im stuck. Please see pictures.

rip
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/bboygenius016/tbelt011.jpg

off teeth on exhaust
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/bboygenius016/tbelt010.jpg

after 1/4 turn of the crank, the teeth lined up again, which made it skip some more
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/bboygenius016/tbelt012.jpg

how do i get the timing to TDC with the teeth off?- i started turning it softly but then i felt a restriction and it moved itself counterclockwise.
also how do i get the crank sprocket off without the tool?
This is on a 90 laser turbo

 

[PaulN]

No. I haven't determined the cause of this mess yet. That's the next job tomorrow. I'll be taking the timing cover off and see what happened to my belt. All I know is it appears to have stripped teeth at the crank and I have weird gouge marks on mt belt as though one of the tensioner pullies seized. I'll know more tomorrow. And yes I do plan to do the tensioner along with many other parts while I have the head off. See below:


Parts Dinosaur 4G63 4G63T NEW Water Pump 89 - 94
$44.85

Parts Dinosaur 4G63 4G63T Accessory Belt Package
$29.90

Parts Dinosaur 4G63 Mitsubishi DOHC Intake Valve
$6.90 x 8 = 55.20

Parts Dinosaur 4G63 Mitsubishi DOHC Exhaust Valve
$8.90 x 8 = 71.20

Slow Boy Balance Shaft Elimination Kit -$42.00

Slow Boy Mitsubishi Metal 4G63 Head Gasket - $89.99

Slowboy DSM Turbo Gasket Kit - $60.00

Slowboy Timing Belt Kit (Includes new pullies, tensioner and belt) - $176.00

Slowboy Upper Gasket Set - $98.99

ebay Turbo Rebuild Kit - $81.99

Miscellaneous items such as head studs I haven't sourced yet.


Also, discovered my exhaust manifold is cracked and the timing cover is busted up. I figure by the end of January or February I should have evrything fixed and back together assuming I don't need to replace the pistons and don't find anything else ruined. (I discovered my front CV Boots are torn today. Uggh... .

 

[SinaiTSi]

I discovered that my CV boots were torn when I took my head off too. Sure we're not working on the same car
As far as your valves, I'm not sure if you are set on the ones from parts dinosaur yet, but from MachV, I got a set of valves made by SI Valves, they've made to exceed oem specs and they're priced well too. http://www.machv.com/oemstreva.html
I'm not sure if you want to get those, but thought I'd just let you know about them cause you'd save yourself a little bit of money.
Good luck.

 

[PaulN]

Hmm. I'm all about saving money. Thanks for the linky!!

 

[project_tsi]

Paul, Like SinaiTSI said, your exhaust valves have bent. Which is odd, b/c 9 out of 10 times, the intake valves will hit first, b/c the intake valves are larger in size than the exhaust valves. This makes me suspicious, may the timing have been set incorrectly by the previous mechanic? There is a good chance that your intake valves are still good. You may only need to replace the ex. valves. I would have the machine shop check out your intake valves and make sure they are still seating properly. If they are, no need to replace them, and that’s more money in your pocket. Like I had said before, PM me when you are ready to order parts, I can get you a better deal on some of these parts. Like how does $65 sound for a Cometic HG? Just PM me if interested.

Those pistons look to be in usable condition still. Like I said before, clean them up w/ a die grinder, knife, or something to be sure of no hot spots forming or from carbon/ piston buildup.

You said it also threw off three rockers. Were all three on the exhaust side? If so, again, making me believe timing could have been off. Also, USUALLY, rockers only pop off at high RPM’s, not meant to be seen in the engine. You said your t-belt screwed up when you were at low rpm’s, right? It didn’t smack the valves at higher rpm’s? Were you at ANY time revving past 7500R’s? Did the car previously run crappy, like missing or acting like it not running on all 4? If so, here’s a thought. Maybe you over revved one day, and popped off the rockers. Its possible, the car has a possibility of still running w/out all the rockers on. At any point and time, did the car just start to run worse, maybe after high revving one time? All I’m saying is that it’s not 100% certain that the rockers popped off and the valves smacked at the same time. Its possible they happened at different times.

You said your turbo bolts were finger tight. Do you know if they are OEM turbo bolts, and do they have 2 OEM lock washers on each bolt? If not, that most likely is why they are loose. Over time, turbo bolts have a tendency to back out by themselves if they do not have the lock washers installed, or if they are not OEM or equal grade high heat bolts. I severely doubt that the last person to work on the car forgot or neglected to tighten the turbo bolts. Either way, I’m sure you had extremely slow spool.

Another question. Check out your balance shafts and gears and oil pump gears, make sure they both are spinning freely. Any drag or if they are extremely tight to turns means trouble, and I know you don’t want any more of that.

When you do re-do the timing again, use all new belts, pulleys, and most importantly the hydraulic tensioner. Eliminate every possibility that may have caused the mess up.

Replace those CV boots too, or get new reman’d axles.

-Dan.

 

[PaulN]

Dan,
No I was at 45 MPH in 4th gear and the car bogged. So I down shifted and it then died. I was in a construction zone, so I wasn't even getting on it In fact, I have never reved this car above 5000 and it was not running funny as far as I could tell for a car with 153,000 miles on it. As a matter of fact I had that same day been telling a friend that the car ran real good for it's age.

Also, I am pretty sure that at least some of the intake valves are bent. Visibly some aren't seating correctly.

I'll PM you for details on parts. 65 bucks is awesome!!! I'll be needing the HG ASAP so I can get the head on as soon as I get it back from the machinist. I'll PM you. Thanks for the input on the pistons and yes, everything I can change while it's apart is getting changed /or at least thoroughly inspected.

Oh, and no, there wasn't any lock washers on the turbo bolts.

 

[project_tsi]

Also, I am pretty sure that at least some of the intake valves are bent. Visibly some aren't seating correctly.

Are the cams out right now? Some will look open a small bit if the cams are still in due to that cylinder being in between strokes. If the cams are not out, remove them, then pull off the intake and ex. manifolds. Now flip the head on its side, so the intake valves are straight up, and proceed to pour water or gas into each chamber, filling them up. If the fluid rushes out by the valve seats/head quickly, then you know they are bent and not seating. If only a few drops come out in a 15 min time, they are still good.

 

[PaulN]

I feel like an idiot. It never even occurred to me that the cams may have some of them partially opened. DOH.

I'll take the cam off tomorrow evening and see what happens with your little test. I'll post results later.

 

[BLUE89TURBO]

Just wondering what type of symptoms there may be if the timing belt has skipped a tooth?

I am still unsure if that is what happened, but today i noticed that the idle seems off .


Thanks for the help...

Jason

 

[Masochist]

Just wondering what type of symptoms there may be if the timing belt has skipped a tooth?

I am still unsure if that is what happened, but today i noticed that the idle seems off .


Thanks for the help...

Jason

It is easy enough to just check the timing marks. The symptoms could be anything from slight to total destruction. The only way to know is to check it.
If for some reason you suspect it has skipped a tooth I would highly recommend you don't start or drive it until you know for sure.

 

[Defiant]

Other than the timing marks, you'd probably not be able to tell.

 

[BLUE89TURBO]

Thanks Masochist,

I know - I got the car home and dont want to start or drive it until i recheck the timing marks.

I just hate to have to redo all that work again

I was wondering also how much play is acceptable at the top of the engine b/w the crank pulleys? - it seems like there is almost 1" of play at the top - which i am sure is too much.

Would a rough idle be a possible symptom that the belt skipped a tooth?

Thanks again...

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

It's possible the idle could be off because the base timing is now off because of the skipped tooth. Generally one tooth off will not be a valve killer as long as you are driving like a madman. Due to a mistake on my part I was off one tooth a while back and it caused no motor damage. Maybe I got lucky.

 

[BLUE89TURBO]

Thanks for the help guys,

Looks like I have my Christmas weekend planned out

I really don't think there is any damage though as I dont hear anything at the head while idling....

hopefully the timing marks are still pretty close too.

 

[talon_dude]

first off i have a 93 eagle talon non turbo.... well on my way to work the timing chain broke so i had to have it towed to the shop. they said it pretty much messed everything up and id have to get a new engine..... so i was just wondering.... how hard is it to go from non turbo to turbo? is it worth it? thanks

 

[Opus69]

We have timing belts not chains

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5986 is a tech article on turbo'ing your NT.. The 1G N/T(assuming you have a 2.0) is almost identical to the turbo engine (Both 4G63's) Personally I would look for a Talon TSi that might have a less than straight body but has good mechanicals and do some swapping around

If you have a 1.8L than you have a bit more work ahead of you...

 

[Matrixhunter]

dont waste your time this is a common question but unless you have lots of time on your hands money and are an experienced mechanic why waste your time attempting it. Just sell the n/t and buy a tsi.

 

[98eclipseRS]

dont waste your time this is a common question but unless you have lots of time on your hands money and are an experienced mechanic why waste your time attempting it. Just sell the n/t and buy a tsi.

He has a 1g, its really not that hard at all if he has a na 4g63 in the car currently. If you do have the na 4g63 then its really just a matter of finding a complete engine and ecu and swapping in the new stuff. If you have a 1.8 then it wouldn't really be worth investing the time/money in getting a turbo engine in there.

 

[Grasser]

ok so this is what happened first, got car and was changing wiper blades and noticed massive oil leak from oil filter. turned out to be loose bolt going through oil cooler, tightened it down. months later driving back from grandma's on highway oil preassure dropped and died pulled over and called AAA towed back to pop's. drained what was left of oil and bolt again was loose. cleaned all up and locktited bolt, had bad tapping but ran ok and had oil preasure. so replaced lash adjusters(oil squriters whatever), new timing, balance, assor belts, water pump, the works. started right up but timing was a little off. adjusted timing and took for a spin. it felt like it was bogged down and got wierd turbo noise when shifting then POP(didn't hear any taps or claps (valves)) and died. towed back home and took everything back off. balance belt got tore up and wedged into timing belt and timing was way off. again replaced belts. now i get a whine from starter and belts turn, a little backfire but wont catch. still off on timing, bent valves? please help i live in kansas if anyone is nearby(probly not) or know a good place to go could be helpful. thanks Adam

 

[ZachM31]

the turbo noise was when you were accelerating? or just when you would shift? the "whine" could have been either the balance shaft belt, or the timing belt being too tight, best bet is to do a compression test to see if the valves are bent, and remove those pesky balance shafts! it really is quite simple to take the balance shafts out with the engine out of the car, but if it's in, it's a little more work. There is a little tolerance for the camshaft sprockets being off, 3 teeth on the intake, and 1 tooth on the exhaust, before you start bending valves, if it is running like ass, my first check would be the timing again, there is a night and day difference for engine performance by moving a sprocket 1 tooth, if you dont feel comfortable doing any of these things, have someone who does do it for you, money spent now is money saved down the road. As for the bolt in the oil filter housing (cooler), which one is it? On my car i know there is 4 bolts that hold the housing to the block, unless i misunderstood you.

 

[Grasser]

thanks for reply turbo made funny noise only when i shifted. will do compression test and would love to remove balance shafts but too much work for now. the bolt i was talking about is the giant one that you screw the filter onto.

 

[ZachM31]

ohh alright, thanks for clearing that up, were the threads fine when you put the loc-tite on them? and which kind of loc-tite did you use? for something like that, i would use "High Temperature" loc-tite, and make sure the threads are good, and then torque it down (not sure on an exact number), as for the funny noise, can you describe it? haha i know its hard to make sounds with words, but it will help me a little bit more. Any questions arise, feel free to ask.

 

[Zacksdsm]

Dude at this point the bolt should be your last concern. If you balencer belt went adn wedged in your timing belt 9 % says your valves are bent. Obviously your car wont start. I know it sucks. I have had my valves bent on 5 different occasions. The 5th time on my 1g is in the process of being fixed and that same thing happened to me. I bent 10 valves and the shop is charging 380 bucks to fix... I considered getting an ebay head but the last ebay head I bought...all the exhaust vavles had the wrong guides in it... and when I got it all back together it was buring oil...so pay the money have the head fixed correctly...if you can do all the work your self and it will cost around 5-600 and that without a new water pump and oil pump...

 

[Zacksdsm]

Ops meant to say 95% says...

 

[Zacksdsm]

How ever I am not recommending doing this work without replacing the water pump or oil pump... Please follow the common troubleshooting steps to ensure that the valves are the problem which seems to be the case with a compression test. That will tell you right away. I have done it plenty of time to find anywhere from 50lbs to 0lbs on bent vavles.

 

[Grasser]

thx again for replies. seems that it's bent valves but just hate to think about it. on the lighter side my dad knows some guys that remanufactued his 74 firebird and will do same to my head and block. new pistons, rings, valves, everything for about 2000 bucks and at least i know it would be done right. also the crank was a lot easier to turn after the pop but the exaust cam still had tension when lining up marks but i guess it only takes a few bent valves to screw everything up. so thanks again for replies and i will NEVER give up!!