Slipped Snapped Broken Timing Belt T-Belt [merged]

[aznerd11]

a few weeks ago, my car started idling poorly so i never started it since. i checked for vacuum leaks, but i then found it to be a problem with the timing belt. When i lifted the top cover, i noticed a rip on the belt and the belt off a few teeth on the exhaust sprocket. So now im in the process of changing it but now im stuck. Please see pictures.

rip
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/bboygenius016/tbelt011.jpg

off teeth on exhaust
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/bboygenius016/tbelt010.jpg

after 1/4 turn of the crank, the teeth lined up again, which made it skip some more
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/bboygenius016/tbelt012.jpg

how do i get the timing to TDC with the teeth off?- i started turning it softly but then i felt a restriction and it moved itself counterclockwise.
also how do i get the crank sprocket off without the tool?
This is on a 90 laser turbo

 

[Old Mitsu Tech]

Guys, I appreciate your confidence in my report.

While I have never had to replace a piston I would look at them and if you have any doubts, post a picture for us to look at.
Every event is unique unto itself in that damage depends on exactly where the belt let go, how fast the engine was turning, and how many miles were on the engine when it let go. I can't remember how many of these "events" I have witnessed through the years as my memory fails me in that respect but to say the least it was a whole bunch of them as in the early 90's Mitsubishi had a whole crap load of bad timing belts. I've changed belts on engines that had absolutely nothing wrong with the belt. This was a precautionary change. I've replaced engines because someone was under full throttle acceleration when it let go. Everything else was in between.

With that being said. Just use your judgment. You may want to polish those valve dings a little with a scouring pad type of polisher. When you are done, use compressed air to clean any debris from around the pistons.


I have a factory manual for my Eclipse. That way any question I may have I can refer to the manual that was designed for Factory OEM repairs under warranty. This covers much more intimately than the Haynes or Chilton's. They can be quite pricey, but I assure you they are worth every precious dime.

Good Luck

 

[project_tsi]

I too have had 2 engines smack valves and never have I replaced a piston, include my car here on the forums, and its pushing over 300hp.

Inspect the pistons the best you can, and maybe you can do what I did. I took an air powered 1/4in grinder and flattened out all the spots on the pistons where the valves have embedded themselves into the pistons. I did this to get rid of the rough edges as well as smooth it out so no hot spots develop on the pistons.

And like Old Mitsu Tech has said, please show us a pic if your unsure of the quality of the piston.

 

[PaulN]

Thanks guys! I bought the shop manuals on ebay today so as soon as I get that delivered and round up the parts I will need I will pull the head and post pictures of the pistons for your review.

To be honest, I am looking forward to the work, at least I'll know it's been done right this time. And if not, I am the only one to blame. Well, I could always blame my brother!!!!!

 

[project_tsi]

Paul, don't forget to use copper seal spray gasket while installing all those new gaskets, it really helps to get a good seal on not so perfect surfaces.

About the oil pump gears. The oil pump gears are loacated in the back of the engine front cover, which is aluminum. Like I said before, replace this front cover. If you go w/ an OEM Mitsu front cover, it most likely will not come w/ new oil pump gears. If you order a Topline or Federal Mogal front cover, they most likely will come w/ new gears but some have argued that the qualitly of aftermarket front covers and oil pumps are is not up to par, some will dissagree. I don't have an opinion, as I have only used OEM front covers. The aftermarket parts will be quite a bit cheaper than OEM but what you decide is up to you. Ive seen both covers and gears work flawlessly before, so the choice is on your budget.

About service manuals. I actually prefer my Chilton manual over my Haynes, besides from a few wrong torque specs, it is better I think than the Haynes, but both work. I STRONGLY suggest spending $30 and gettting the complete OEM manuals and everything else you can think of needing to know on this CD. www.manualcd.com

Your Timing belt question. I don't think the Kevlar t-belt is need. There is NOTHING wrong w/ OEM belts. They say the kevlar belt will last 4 times longer than an OEM belt, but think about it, the other timing parts will not last that long. Besides, do you really think you will put another 240,000 miles on the car? I doubt it. So, as it looks good, to me it really isn't needed unless your making tons of power and want the extra peice of mind.

About your turbo question, please let me know what kind of problems its having, that way I can narrow down some options for you. If it needs rebuilt, it can be done fairly cheeply. A rebuild kit is about $100. Let me know if you need info on the site.

Some of your rebuild parts I can get you a guy that can help a bit on price, PM me for more info if you wish.

 

[r10performance]

In my shop, 75% of jumped/snapped/stripped timing belts are due to the balance shafts seizing. IMO, bal. elim. is mandatory on an engine with over 100k. As for the engine having 152k, if it's had it's oil changed regularly it's whole life, it probably has alot of life left in it. I've seen 4G63s with 250k miles, running 18psi+ for years.

 

[SinaiTSi]

Guys, I appreciate your confidence in my report.

While I have never had to replace a piston I would look at them and if you have any doubts, post a picture for us to look at.
Every event is unique unto itself in that damage depends on exactly where the belt let go, how fast the engine was turning, and how many miles were on the engine when it let go. I can't remember how many of these "events" I have witnessed through the years as my memory fails me in that respect but to say the least it was a whole bunch of them as in the early 90's Mitsubishi had a whole crap load of bad timing belts. I've changed belts on engines that had absolutely nothing wrong with the belt. This was a precautionary change. I've replaced engines because someone was under full throttle acceleration when it let go. Everything else was in between.

With that being said. Just use your judgment. You may want to polish those valve dings a little with a scouring pad type of polisher. When you are done, use compressed air to clean any debris from around the pistons.


I have a factory manual for my Eclipse. That way any question I may have I can refer to the manual that was designed for Factory OEM repairs under warranty. This covers much more intimately than the Haynes or Chilton's. They can be quite pricey, but I assure you they are worth every precious dime.

Good Luck

Yeah, i do have some pics actually, if anyone could look at them and let me know what you think, I'd appreciate it. Oh yeah, as far as how much load was on the engine when this happened, it was just idling in the driveway and then rev'd for a second and that was it. Thanks.

http://photobucket.com/albums/b135/SinaiTSi/Engine Problems/

 

[project_tsi]

SinaiTSI, you have nothing to worry about. The pistons look fine to me. My valves were much worse than yours. Since you were at such a lower RPM when it happened it only looks as if it hit the intake valves, which is common w/ DSM's because the intake valves are larger than the ex. valves, so naturally those would hit first. Now, when you get into a situation like mine when it was a higher rev t-belt breakage, and you bend both the intake and ex. valves then really need to inspect those pistons. It looks like yours have just barely hit the pistons cousing them to bend just a bit. Just clean up the top of the pistons a bit like I mentioned above to be sure of no hot spots and I say your good to go. Well, you gotsta get a few new valves in first, and while your doing it, don't forget to put in new valve seals!

 

[SinaiTSi]

Thanks for the help. I do have another question though, I know about a shop that has a freshly rebuilt head with new valves, springs, retainers for $400. I was planning on just doing that but, how much would it be for me to rebuild the head myself and how hard is it. Right now I have it stripped down to just the springs, retainers, valves. How hard would it be for me to just fix that all myself and what special tools would I need or would the $400 head be more worth my money. Thanks a lot.

 

[Old Mitsu Tech]

I agree. The intake valves look like they took the brunt of the attack but as far as I can see you are ok. Just clean them up to remove the sharp edges that can cause pre-ignition and such because of hot spots. You don't want those.

As far as the head goes, it all depends on how much of a hurry you are in and if you have searched and couldn't find a better deal. 400 is a little on the high side for a stock head, but in these days and times it probably isn't all that far out. If you are in a hurry, get it and slap it on. (Properly of course) Do all the little things we've been suggesting all along to make it a very good repair which won't haunt you after you've blown your horn at and fingered a group of hells angels. That's when mine would quit. .


Good Luck

 

[SinaiTSi]

One other question, with my oil drained and my head off. Is it safe to manually crank the car to move the pistons up and down so I can inspect/smooth them off. Does that throw off the timing because the pistons are supposed to be at those exact positions for when the head goes back on? or will that hurt the cylinder walls because of the lack of oil? Thanks.

 

[project_tsi]

Thanks for the help. I do have another question though, I know about a shop that has a freshly rebuilt head with new valves, springs, retainers for $400. I was planning on just doing that but, how much would it be for me to rebuild the head myself and how hard is it. Right now I have it stripped down to just the springs, retainers, valves. How hard would it be for me to just fix that all myself and what special tools would I need or would the $400 head be more worth my money. Thanks a lot.

Depending on what all needs to be done to the head, I don't think you need a whole new head. A new set of OEM valves can be had for just over $100, and then a complete valve job, along w/ new seals should be no more than $100, at least it wasn't for me. Then maybe leave a few extra bucks aside for them to completely clean, degrease, and resurface the head to perfect flatness, and you should still end up saving $100-$150, rather than buying the new head for $400, but its up to you. The new head may have a warranty on it that may benefit you, or if your in a hurry to get the car up and running, then you may want to pursue that option.

 

[project_tsi]

One other question, with my oil drained and my head off. Is it safe to manually crank the car to move the pistons up and down so I can inspect/smooth them off. Does that throw off the timing because the pistons are supposed to be at those exact positions for when the head goes back on? or will that hurt the cylinder walls because of the lack of oil? Thanks.

You will be fine rotating the engine w/out the head on. The engine will have to be re-timed prior to starting anyways, and when your done deburring the pistons, simply put the #1 piston (closest to the t-belt) at top dead center to help w/ timing.

 

[brandon2gtsi]

I have a 1993 Talon 2.0 N/T and I put different motor in it because it spun two rod bearings and I took the motor out of my 91 eclipse n/t and I put a new timing belt and a new head gasket and valve cover gasket on it and then put it in my 93. I got everything back together and it ran fine for about 10 minutes and then the timing belt slipped. What could I have done wrong to make it slip within 10 minutes of running? It only ran for a couple seconds like that before I shut it down so is it inevitable that I bent valves or could they be ok? I also have a reman head from my 7 bolt that I pulled out of my 93 but will that fit on my 6 bolt from my 91 cuz I heard that the bolt holes in the head are different sizes is that true or no? Any help would be greatly appreciated I need to get back on the road. THanks Brandon

 

[PaulN]

WOW! This turned out to be a great thread. At least three people are getting much needed help. Old Mitsu and project_tsi...

Dan...I'll be PMing you in a momnth or so to take you up on that offer for some parts. I can wait till after Christmas to get started on the repairs...kids XMas comes first!!

To answer your question about my turbo...it blows smoke under boost and I burn 1/2 to 1 quart of oil every tank full (around 300 miles). I suspect the turbo seals are shot since the valve seals are brand new and the compression checked out awesome, right around 155 across the board. Speaking of seals. Since this head was JUST redone, can I get away with just putting in new valves if their bent or do you think the valves bent that would ruin the seals?

Thanks again... and FYI..that is the CD I bought. It has the shop manuals for all DSM's from 90 to 98 or 99 I think.

 

[Old Mitsu Tech]

Well, I was thinking of the actual Mitsubishi manufactured service manuals. They are a 2 book set. The second book is for electrical. However, if the CD does you properly I don't have a problem with that either. I've been kind of spoiled to the actual dealer manuals all my life. If I have a problem child in my shop, I try to find a factory book to resolve it. I hate getting to the good part and then having the book refer me to a factory manual.

As far as cranking, Like project_tsi said, you are OK there since you have to get the piston on tdc to clean it up. You got a bunch of good advice today. Let us know how you handled it.

Also, take time to thank the founders as they have allowed a forum for everyone to get together to resolve problems almost immediately night and day. Kinda like a humongous service manual with attitude Remember, I too have learned a lot in here. I just tend not to ask questions as the answers are usually right there to add to my repertoire.

Good Luck

 

[Old Mitsu Tech]

Brandon. I would suspicion you did not handle the auto tensioner right. If it was not compressed, pinned and installed properly, I will wager that you have a 95 percent chance of bent valves. You may be lucky as I have seen a few not bend valves. Darn few but nevertheless it's worth putting a belt on and trying. Now, I recommend you getting a service manual and doing your belt exactly as it suggests. I can tell you on here how to do it but I've posted a bunch of these on how to do it right. Another place people fail is not using the factory tool to set the belt tensioner above the auto tensioner. The tool looks like a little square with fangs on it. These interlock into the pulley holes to facilitate adjustment. Adjust the tension clockwise until the pin starts to get loose in the auto tensioner. This is pretty darn close and in 14 years of Mitsu repairs I've either been lucky or just got it right as I have never lost a patient due to improper install. Other parts going bad and causing a problem, yes. Anyway, Don't crank it and make it worse. Although you probably done all the damage you are going to do if it did hit wrong. Tear it down, and check out what went wrong. You will probably find the auto tensioner plunger fully extended which indicates improper adjustment.


Post your findings and let us know.

If you need help, pm me and I'll try to talk you through it.

Good Luck

 

[SinaiTSi]

You're right, this thread was extremely helpful. This is DSMtuners at it's finest, no flaming, just a bunch of guys helping others out. I really do appreciate the help and I'll let you know how it goes, I'm gonna clean up the tops of the pistons and then weigh my options about my head. I'll let you guys know how it goes, Thanks again and good luck PaulN.

 

[PaulN]

Old Mitsu..the CD I bought contains 2 volumes per model year. One is on the mechanical stuff and one on electrical. Is this what you are referring too? I saw it in paper but it was $75 and the cd was less than $30.

And yeah...you're right! THanks founders!! This place is great!!

 

[project_tsi]

WOW! This turned out to be a great thread. At least three people are getting much needed help. Old Mitsu and project_tsi...

Dan...I'll be PMing you in a momnth or so to take you up on that offer for some parts. I can wait till after Christmas to get started on the repairs...kids XMas comes first!!

To answer your question about my turbo...it blows smoke under boost and I burn 1/2 to 1 quart of oil every tank full (around 300 miles). I suspect the turbo seals are shot since the valve seals are brand new and the compression checked out awesome, right around 155 across the board. Speaking of seals. Since this head was JUST redone, can I get away with just putting in new valves if their bent or do you think the valves bent that would ruin the seals?

Thanks again... and FYI..that is the CD I bought. It has the shop manuals for all DSM's from 90 to 98 or 99 I think.

Paul, Im here to help when you need info on parts.

As for your head question, The seals may or may not be damaged from the bent valves. I would suspect not damaged. However, If you are to order a complete gasket kit, it will come with new valve seals, and if you already have your head in at a machine shop, then just spend the extra couple bucks and have them put in the new valve seals. This way, you know that they are good. Basically its cheap insurance.

As for the turbo smoking issue. When you get time, remove your lower IC pipe. Its the pipe that connects the turbo to the Intercooler. When you do, feel around and check for oil inside the pipe. If there is alot of oil in the pipe, then you have bad seals. And if your smoking while under boost, thats a tell tale sign of seals going out. PM and I can give you some info on where to get the rebuild kits for around $100. You can rebuild a turbo yourself, just take your time and be careful. Also, if you prefer, if you want to have the turbo assembly balanced, I know of a place (Bullseye Power) that will balance it for $40.

Oh and for your info. The CD you bought IS the factory shop manuals, tech manuals, and all electrical manuals on one cd!

 

[oldman]

Here you go. http://www.vfaq.com/mods/timingbelt-1G.html

 

[i1nk83]

i have to add my $.02 to this thread. i agree w/ all of the others, your pistons look fine. i usually use a pocket knife or a razor base and trim any sharp edges off of the pistons where the valves kissed it. personally i do NOT reccomend going at it w/ a dies grinder/scouring pad etc. the oem pistons have a ceramic coating on them from the factory. when you hit them with the die grinder you are mostly likely removing most if not all of the protective coating. therefore weakening the piston. just trim the rough/sharp edges off and you are good to go.

 

[SinaiTSi]

I agree. The intake valves look like they took the brunt of the attack but as far as I can see you are ok. Just clean them up to remove the sharp edges that can cause pre-ignition and such because of hot spots. You don't want those.

As far as the head goes, it all depends on how much of a hurry you are in and if you have searched and couldn't find a better deal. 400 is a little on the high side for a stock head, but in these days and times it probably isn't all that far out. If you are in a hurry, get it and slap it on. (Properly of course) Do all the little things we've been suggesting all along to make it a very good repair which won't haunt you after you've blown your horn at and fingered a group of hells angels. That's when mine would quit. .


Good Luck

You said that $400 seemed a bit on the high side. How much would it be for my head to just be rebuilt from a shop most likely? Also, which concerns me, about 4 months ago, my engine has a 'miss' and I didn't feel like fooling with it so I took it into a shop and they said that it was because of a burnt valve. Well, they got that fixed and everything was fine 'till now when all of my intake valves starting knocking on my pistons. What do you think of that? Is it something in the head wasn't put back together, it is a bad head, the shop I had it done at didn't time everything up right? And what do you suggest so this won't happen again? Thanks.

 

[project_tsi]

i have to add my $.02 to this thread. i agree w/ all of the others, your pistons look fine. i usually use a pocket knife or a razor base and trim any sharp edges off of the pistons where the valves kissed it. personally i do NOT reccomend going at it w/ a dies grinder/scouring pad etc. the oem pistons have a ceramic coating on them from the factory. when you hit them with the die grinder you are mostly likely removing most if not all of the protective coating. therefore weakening the piston. just trim the rough/sharp edges off and you are good to go.

You don't think that the ceramic coating was taken off by the valve smacking the piston?

I just use my small dremel tool to take off the part of the piston that the valve had "gauged" up. I don't remove any more than I need to.

 

[PaulN]

Okay everyone. My brother and I just got done taking the head off and I am not real happy with what I see. Maybe it just looks bad and really isn't. Whoever did this job the first time really didn't do such a hot job. Can you say finger tight turbo bolts?

Anyhow, I have some pictures of my pistons. Any thoughts on the gouges? I am hoping to just clean them up and drive on.

I hope to have the head to the machinist for valves seals, new valves and a good cleaning by the weekend. Oh yeah, the head also threw 3 rockers. What do you make of that?

Cylinder #1

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Cylinder #2

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Cylinder #3

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Cylinder #4

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Thanks in advance for the input!

 

[SinaiTSi]

I seemed to have had almost the same problem as you, except my intake valves hit my pistons. It looks like your exhaust valves hit. My head is in a machine shop right now, should be done by monday or tuesday and then I'm throwing everything back together. BTW, maybe I skipped over something, but did you ever figure out what happened with your timing belt, why it broke? Mine never broke, but all of a sudden it just started knocking my valves. Which is weird because my cam gears lined up and everything. Oh yeah, I'd strongly suggest replacing your hydraulic tensioner, that's what the machinist with my head thinks it might've been for me. Whether or not it was your problem, I'd suggest replacing it.