Simple and inexpensive caliper upgrade

[arrowhead]

This is in response to a PM from turboglenn instead and with his permission I will make this a new thread where a so a lot of people can benefit.
First this is a no "I read somewhere", "I heard somewhere", type of deal.
I did not invent this neither, the credit would have to go to GM engineers and r&d.

I am going back a few years so please bear with me.
The brake system in dsm cars are at best poor, it most definetly needs improvement, I am referring to the calipers in this case, but we have to live with them or do upgrades sometimes at a very high cost.

Back in the 60s when chevy started road racing their corvette they had a big problem with the stock calipers as the fluid would boil no matter how much ducting they put on them.
Brake fade is even now days still, the biggest problem from NASCAR to FORMULA 1, that is the reason that you use water inj., ducting, high temp brake fluid weather silicone or organic, if you use your brakes hard and caliper brand does not matter as far as boiling your fluid.
What makes this happen of course is heat which I am sure is not anything new to every one.
GM went to work on the corvette calipers and they improve them
tremendously.
First they came up with I think was the J6 option which it did not come in any production vette, they came with the bent tab pads which was made by GM and Raybestos back then, the pad plate looks like an inverted J from one end to the other, the raised part of the caliper had to be ground down even with the top of calipers and 4 holes had to drilled 2 on each half to use the new pins, this gave the pad much more rigidity and reduced pad slapping. The rest of the pad was a normal FSMI D8 pad although later they added thickness to them for long races. They went further and sleeved the piston bore with STAINLESS STEEL sleeves, SS is a bad heat conductor.

Then they added a phenolic or bakelite bottom to the piston itself,WIKI the properties, and here, it made a world of difference.
Now I thank CHRYSLER for those "plastic" piston no one likes, they are made from the same bakelite only their density is better, the OD on the vette piston is
1.875 front and 1.375 rear but it really does not matter, I again have tried to find them but have not yet.

Buy the closest size of the phenolic piston and machine them, grind them to the ID of your particular piston this is a DIY operation very simple.
With this and some ducting and use the hardware, the SS shim behind the plate.

This will eliminate a lot of the heat from getting to the fluid and you will improve your repeated braking and life of your brake system.
I have done this many times and it has always, always helped.
For less than $100.00 you will better your
brakes by 50% at least.
Check the website for guldstrandmotorsports and a lot of good info there this was the top dog, racing corvettes and camaros an excellent person and engineer.

arrowhead

 

[Flash]

Huh??? Just buy better quality fluid...

 

[arrowhead]

No,, with repeated or hard braking the fluid will still boil, the idea is to try to keep the heat generated by the friction from getting to the fluid, this will not make you brake any harder that depends on your brake set up, it will let you use the maximum capability longer.

Silicone brake fluid is about the best you can use for fluid, this was used on race cars long before it became available to the public.

The reason being that DOT specs for brake fluid specified not only temp. but also
humidity content and the silicone does not absorb water they did not have a class to put it in, you know DOT3-DOT4-DOT5, it took years for DOT to give the OK for the silicone fluid.
The idea behind this is to avoid heat, to insulated from the fluid.
Read the back of the container and you will see the specs.

That is the reason they tell you to close the container as soon as you use it and buy the small cans unless you are flushing the entire system because regular brake fluid absorbs moisture and water in your brake system is a NO NO.

I hope this helps you.

arrowhead

 

[agentorange313]

That is the reason they tell you to close the container as soon as you use it and buy the small cans unless you are flushing the entire system because regular brake fluid absorbs moisture and water in your brake system is a NO NO.

brake fluid = hygroscopic

Where can we find these pistons to machine?

For people who need this information:
1g Single piston - 1.92" Overall Length / 2.371" Piston Diameter
Big brake (1g dual piston calipers) - 1.81" Overall Length / 1.62" Piston Diameter
2g Dual Piston - 1.77" Overall Length / 1.684" Piston Diameter
3000gt VR4 - LOWER Professional Grade; 1.15" Overall Length / 1.685" Piston Diameter and UPPER Professional Grade; 1.15" Overall Length / 1.501" Piston Diameter

 

[arrowhead]

Exactly, I just did not want to use big words.


Thank you very much.
arrowhead

brake fluid = hygroscopic

Where can we find these pistons to machine?

For people who need this information:
Big brake (1g and 2g dual piston calipers) - 1.81" Overall Length / 1.62" Piston Diameter
1g Single piston - 1.92" Overall Length / 2.371" Piston Diameter
3000gt VR4 - LOWER Professional Grade; 1.15" Overall Length / 1.685" Piston Diameter and UPPER Professional Grade; 1.15" Overall Length / 1.501" Piston Diameter

Let me clarify as I think there may be small misunderstanding what you need to measure is the ID of whatever caliper piston you have.

What you will use from the phenolic piston is only the bottom part or the ass end of the pheno piston this you will make into round pieces and insert them in the ones you have, actually you will be making a botton, you can use anything that is round made out bakelite, just that the density of the pheno piston is much higher.

If it is not clear please let me know and I will try to explain some more.

arrowhead

 

[Flash]

And have you actually done this? If so I'm sure you could post pictures. The second line of your OP said: "First this is a no "I read somewhere", "I heard somewhere", type of deal."
This is exactly what it's starting to sound like type-of-deal.

 

[greengoblin]

You can also get similar results by having the brake pistons and calipers ceramic coated on the sides that faces the brake pads. If you want to go further you can use a thermal dispersant on the opposite side to help the shed the heat that does get in the better.


They makes some really slick Ti brake pad shield for the EVO guys.

Girodisc Front Titanium Pad Shields for EVO 6/7/8/9


I've been thinking about making a set for the eclipse but figured most of the guys who are really serious are running some type of aftermarket brakes already and the Ti shields are all ready out there.

 

[arrowhead]

And have you actually done this? If so I'm sure you could post pictures. The second line of your OP said: "First this is a no "I read somewhere", "I heard somewhere", type of deal."
This is exactly what it's starting to sound like type-of-deal.

Well it sounds like you want to take negatives, you did not read the complete post as I mentioned in it "I HAVE DONE THIS MANY TIMES" but I will give you a small list, besides the corvette I raced in IMSA -GT1 and SCCA- A PRODUCTION.

69 CORVAIR, 80 PLYMOUTH FIREARROW, CAMARO DIFFERENT YEARS, MUSTANGS, FIAT, and the list will go on since this can be done to any street car to any caliper from Brembos , Wilwoods, or any other.

Read my friend read.

And maybe for your peace of mind I was the South Florida distribuitor for
PERFORMANCE FRICTION for many years, my auto parts store was 2 blocks from Hialeah Speedway, 15 minutes from Hollywood Speedway, and 1 hour from Morosso Speedway in West Palm Beach.

I will not post anything as advice, that would be hearsay, or read somewhere,
or was told by someone.

Thanks for your interest.

As far as pictures read again the years I am talking about and you will have an idea why I may not have any pictures the computers did not exist.

I have been taking some pictures of my current built but I have to wait for my grandson to help me since there are a lot of things I dont know about uploading,
and downloading an so on. but we can talk brakes all day long.

Again thanks

arrowhead

You can also get similar results by having the brake pistons and calipers ceramic coated on the sides that faces the brake pads. If you want to go further you can use a thermal dispersant on the opposite side to help the shed the heat that does get in the better.


They makes some really slick Ti brake pad shield for the EVO guys.

Girodisc Front Titanium Pad Shields for EVO 6/7/8/9


I've been thinking about making a set for the eclipse but figured most of the guys who are really serious are running some type of aftermarket brakes already and the Ti shields are all ready out there.

Every bit helps. I agreed with you on that, I first stated simple and inexpensive.

Is cheaper, you dont even have to take the calipers off only the pads and more effective since the ceramic coating even if is thermal would only be around the perimeter of the piston that faces the stainless steel shim that come with your pads even adding another shim is good.

This all about where you want to spend your money and my advice is a big bang for the bucks.

 

[psycho]

So you essentially fill the hollow part of the piston with the phenolic material?

 

[97gst_spyder]

I like the idea if it was a 'bolt on' upgrade. Like remove the caliper piston, then re-install the new phenolic one.

 

[greengoblin]

So you essentially fill the hollow part of the piston with the phenolic material?

That is what I gathered from the post. Sheild the OEM pistons and calipers as from as much heat as you can. I'd like to see pictures of this mod even it's it's on another car.


KEvin

 

[Bud92gsx]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/handling-tech/405050-camaro-brakes-bolt.html... This was a couple months ago..But I thought I would put it in here also for 1g..

This is another one worth taking a look at.. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/handling-tech/347243-cts-v-brake-caliper-swap-brembo.html

 

[arrowhead]

So you essentially fill the hollow part of the piston with the phenolic material?

Yes the bottom of the new phenolic piston would be cut and made into a disc to the ID of your present piston.

I like the idea if it was a 'bolt on' upgrade. Like remove the caliper piston, then re-install the new phenolic one.

Yes that could also be done but I dont know if the stock replacement is available in pheno.

The only problem with the pheno piston is after a few yrs they are a bi*** to get out but they are superior to the regular piston also they do not corrode.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/handling-tech/405050-camaro-brakes-bolt.html... This was a couple months ago..But I thought I would put it in here also for 1g..

This is another one worth taking a look at.. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/handling-tech/347243-cts-v-brake-caliper-swap-brembo.html

You are right the brembos from the camaro should bolt on but if you go that route
they were having a problem with vibration and they added some tabs to the pads or something like that, the later yrs are suppose to be fixed.

The cstv are also 160mm calipers but they seem to have a small problem finding the correct rotor for it and still have them centered. and you have to do some grinding in other parts of the spindle.

Neither of these are "simple and inexpensive"

That is what I gathered from the post. Sheild the OEM pistons and calipers as from as much heat as you can. I'd like to see pictures of this mod even it's it's on another car.


KEvin

I am trying to install a set of GN Wildwoods that I had from many years ago they are the same as the new ones they have now except they are all the same size piston all 6 of them, so they are non directional like the new ones, but on mine I have the larger piston area, if I can install them, the first thing I will do is try to find pheno pistons for them if not I will go with the regular piston AND then add the pheno discs to the ID of mine

My wilwoods have the 6" spread so I am not very far off. If I can do it ,then I will take pictures.

I plan to have these monsters up front and the evo8 on the rear.

 

[97gst_spyder]

So every few years replace the caliper... Not that bad...

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

Can I just bring this back and ask some questions, ive read the titanium shims but I dont think that alone will do enough,

Now ive been reading of titanium pistons and I am wanting to know what grade would be needed to be used as it will need to expand and then shrink again but remain secure and strong.

I just want views on it if possible and if anyone knows if its a good thing to do

 

[lowell]

Titanium Piston Noses

I was looking at these for my Stoptech's.

From the Stoptech site:
The fact of the matter is that a simple Titanium button placed inside the OEM piston does about 70% of the job at a fraction of the cost with no risk of damaging anything by disassembling the caliper.

 

[arrowhead]

The phenolic insert works and at a fraction of the cost.

No worries about expansion and expense of machining, maybe a lot of people did not understand or I was not able to explained it well.

The pheno insert could be used on any caliper, any size, and the caliper does not have to be taken apart.

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

Titanium Piston Noses

I was looking at these for my Stoptech's.

From the Stoptech site:
The fact of the matter is that a simple Titanium button placed inside the OEM piston does about 70% of the job at a fraction of the cost with no risk of damaging anything by disassembling the caliper.

I cant seem to access your link

I found them but not sure what ones would fit my oem piston,

 

[greddy_1700]

What I dont understand is that Bakelite and other phenolics have a decomposition range of 240-280 C. So how would this material be able to handle the extreme temps found in the brake system.

Also, is this something you insert into the end of the piston facing the pad, or the end of the piston facing the caliper? Would you insert it like the titanium plugs shown above from StopTech?

 

[arrowhead]

Many of the chrysler calipers came with a phenolic piston instead of a steel piston so the temp, is not a problem.

In the GM corvette they would sit flush with the open end of the steel piston, and it is similar to the picture shown, they would in one end be facing the caliper and the other end would face the pad.

Wiki the properties of these as they were made just as a regular steel piston.

 

[dsmspick]

Ok everyone know the intake manifold spacers? It is just like that but harder and for your brakes. This is a spacer between the pad and the piston to keep the heat transfer down, to keep the fluid from boiling. Correct arrowhead?