Rich but reads Lean

[DSM_23]

I just read your whole thread.

So you still havent checked base timing with a timing light?

Bust out the timing light, ground out the connector on the firewall per vfaq.com and check the base timing. The logger has absolutley no idea what you base timing is, only what it thinks it is.

Sound like your base timing is way advance and you cant richen it up enough to stop the knock. Black smoke is rich regardless of what the narrow band thinks it is. Not to mention 115% idc.

-Seth

Ahhh tonite I made great progress I checked base timing and I wasnt exactly sure on what mark to set it on it had a 10, a mark in the middle, and a "T". I set base timing on the middle mark. It was set all the way a little past 10 according to the timing light. We retarded timing and set it to that middle mark, went for a long drive and noticed a HUGE improvement. Knock didnt occur much at all, before it would spike instantly when boost would hit. Now maybe a few counts. We did several pulls and it still shows its running lean, I pulled the afc #'s down to around -15 and it ran like so I moved them back up to around 0 and it ran much better with knock at max around 15-17 counts. Overall there was no "phantom knock" occuring while driving around, it ran pretty good, and my 272's smoothed out quite a bit, not as lopey. Overall I could defintely see a major improvement, but I still dont get why im seeing such odd amounts of fuel needed on the afc. I suppose that the next step. What should I try and do next?

 

[sbiggi]

I would double check that the timing marks all line up.

How much boost are you running? and what does the logger say you are getting for timing now?

-Seth

 

[DSM_23]

Boost is at 19psi, and timing advance on logger at idle reads about 9-10ish is that right? Or is that timing advance on mmcd suppost to read 5? ALso what timing mark on the Crank indicator and I setting this for? the timing middle one in between the T and the 10?

 

[94Jettameowpsst]

Since we're on the topic of knock...i've been having a VERY weird problem. I have an evo 3 w/ full 3 in turbo back and it creeps to 22psi. THats not the problem. This is the first car i've tried to tune with the stock mas and just an afc. To make a long story short, doesnt matter what i have the afc set to on high throttle, it will knock unbelievably anything over 4800rpm. Anyone think it could be a bad fuel filter?

 

[sbiggi]

Boost is at 19psi, and timing advance on logger at idle reads about 9-10ish is that right? Or is that timing advance on mmcd suppost to read 5? ALso what timing mark on the Crank indicator and I setting this for? the timing middle one in between the T and the 10?

At idle the logger should be 10 or so.

The Marks for the crank should be
-T
-
-10

You want it in between when the connector on the firewall is grounded out, which is where you said it was.
I was saying to also check and make sure the cam gears, and crank all line up on the timing marks.

Turn the crank till the crank pulley it lined up on the t and then check the timing marks on the cam gears. They should be even )--(

If that stuff lines up then you either have a fuel delivery, or air metering issue. Almost sounds like your injectors are not 660cc.

 

[sbiggi]

Since we're on the topic of knock...i've been having a VERY weird problem. I have an evo 3 w/ full 3 in turbo back and it creeps to 22psi. THats not the problem. This is the first car i've tried to tune with the stock mas and just an afc. To make a long story short, doesnt matter what i have the afc set to on high throttle, it will knock unbelievably anything over 4800rpm. Anyone think it could be a bad fuel filter?

Stock 1g maf?
Guarantee you are over running the maf. Easily checked with the AFC, switch it to line graph mode monitoring only the Hz.

If it get supper jagged when boost comes on, then you are over running the maf. Time to either hack the maf or get a 2g maf.

 

[DSM_23]

At idle the logger should be 10 or so.

The Marks for the crank should be
-T
-
-10

You want it in between when the connector on the firewall is grounded out, which is where you said it was.
I was saying to also check and make sure the cam gears, and crank all line up on the timing marks.

Turn the crank till the crank pulley it lined up on the t and then check the timing marks on the cam gears. They should be even )--(

If that stuff lines up then you either have a fuel delivery, or air metering issue. Almost sounds like your injectors are not 660cc.

Well the lines on the crank and cam gears are perfect, the timing is set in the middle notch, Logger reads around 10ish at idle, Bought the injectors from FIC and they said 660 on them. Hmmm anybody have any ideas on what could be causing the afc to have to be adjusted so much? Car runs pretty damn good, idles perfect, no leaks.. etc What could it be

 

[sbiggi]

You are running a 2g maf, is it hacked at all? any honey combs removed?

And can you post a log of a third gear pull?


-Seth

 

[DSM_23]

Yes I have a 2g mas unhacked. And im trying to figure out how to post logs how do you do it, just copy them into excel?

 

[power=dsm]

check in the tech articles, theirs a post on how to post logs so that they are user friendly.

 

[DSM_23]

Well I think I got this to work right but heres a 3rd gear pull from the other day.


TIMA O2-R TPS MAFS ERPM KNCK INJP
37.00 0.68 25.10 245.31 3062.50 0.00 3.07
37.00 0.20 25.10 245.31 3062.50 0.00 3.33
36.00 0.78 25.49 245.31 3093.75 0.00 3.07
37.00 0.37 25.49 251.60 3093.75 0.00 3.33
37.00 0.78 25.88 257.89 3125.00 0.00 3.33
37.00 0.21 27.06 270.47 3125.00 0.00 3.58
36.00 0.80 27.84 283.05 3156.25 0.00 3.84
34.00 0.08 33.33 364.82 3187.50 0.00 4.86
32.00 0.82 34.12 389.98 3187.50 0.00 4.86
32.00 0.78 34.51 421.43 3250.00 0.00 4.86
31.00 0.23 24.31 327.08 3281.25 0.00 3.07
38.00 0.68 23.53 232.73 3312.50 0.00 2.56
39.00 0.02 29.80 276.76 3343.75 0.00 4.35
33.00 0.02 42.35 459.17 3375.00 0.00 5.89
29.00 0.86 49.80 566.10 3437.50 0.00 8.19
27.00 0.88 54.51 673.03 3500.00 0.00 10.75
25.00 0.88 61.57 874.31 3625.00 20.00 14.85
11.00 0.88 68.63 1113.33 3718.75 26.00 18.18
8.00 0.88 77.65 1182.52 3875.00 26.00 17.41
9.00 0.88 87.45 1232.84 4031.25 30.00 17.92
7.00 0.88 93.73 1327.19 4156.25 30.00 18.69
7.00 0.86 97.25 1421.54 4343.75 29.00 19.71
8.00 0.86 98.82 1509.60 4468.75 29.00 20.48
8.00 0.86 98.82 1597.66 4593.75 28.00 20.74
8.00 0.86 98.82 1603.95 4687.50 28.00 20.99
8.00 0.86 99.22 1603.95 4781.25 28.00 21.25
9.00 0.86 99.22 1603.95 4906.25 28.00 21.25
9.00 0.86 99.22 1603.95 5062.50 27.00 21.50
9.00 0.86 99.22 1603.95 5156.25 27.00 21.76
10.00 0.84 99.61 1603.95 5187.50 27.00 22.02
12.00 0.84 99.61 1603.95 5250.00 26.00 22.27
12.00 0.84 99.61 1603.95 5500.00 29.00 22.53
11.00 0.84 99.61 1603.95 5562.50 29.00 22.27
12.00 0.84 99.61 1603.95 5625.00 28.00 22.27
13.00 0.84 99.61 1603.95 5718.75 35.00 22.27
10.00 0.82 99.61 1603.95 5843.75 35.00 22.27
11.00 0.82 99.61 1603.95 5937.50 34.00 22.27
12.00 0.82 99.61 1603.95 6062.50 39.00 22.02
10.00 0.82 99.61 1603.95 6062.50 39.00 22.02
9.00 0.82 100.00 1603.95 6218.75 38.00 21.76
8.00 0.82 100.00 1603.95 6343.75 38.00 21.76
8.00 0.82 100.00 1603.95 6406.25 38.00 21.50
8.00 0.82 100.00 1603.95 6468.75 37.00 21.25
7.00 0.82 99.61 1603.95 6562.50 38.00 20.99
5.00 0.82 89.80 1603.95 6625.00 38.00 4.35
22.00 0.76 9.80 100.64 6031.25 18.00 1.28
41.00 0.25 11.37 106.93 5156.25 0.00 1.54
45.00 0.84 49.02 584.97 4812.50 0.00 8.45
28.00 0.86 79.22 1188.81 4937.50 0.00 15.87
19.00 0.86 83.14 1603.95 5000.00 0.00 21.76
19.00 0.84 76.86 1603.95 5062.50 13.00 20.74
14.00 0.84 64.71 1603.95 5156.25 13.00 19.46
15.00 0.90 9.80 314.50 5000.00 6.00 1.54
45.00 0.29 9.80 81.77 5156.25 0.00 1.28

 

[DSM_23]

Also my fuel trims appear to be perfect, Low is around 99-103 Mid = 103 High=100.
Im not getting that much knock at part throttle anymore which is good, and it feels better driving around power wise. But I still cant figure out why I have to add so much fuel compared to everyone else. Its like the ecu is chipped for it, but I know for a fact it is not.

 

[sbiggi]

I cant imagine you are actually flowing enough air to require that amount of fuel.

You are at 108% Injector duty cycle.

There are really only two things it could be
1. Your timing is way to advanced still
2. There is something wrong with your fuel pressure.

Your ecu thinks its running a max of like 13 degrees of timing, it should not be knocking at all.

Pull your base timing back more and see what happens.

-Seth

 

[DSM_23]

What are some things I could check regarding my fuel system that might effect my pressure? My fuel pump is pretty new its rewired, Fuel filter was changed like 10k ago so I might need to change that sometime, but still I dont see that being the cause of this.

 

[sbiggi]

What are some things I could check regarding my fuel system that might effect my pressure? My fuel pump is pretty new its rewired, Fuel filter was changed like 10k ago so I might need to change that sometime, but still I dont see that being the cause of this.

Odds are that your fuel pressure is fine.
You could get a cheap B&M Gauge that replaces the bolt on the filter, then you would be able to check base pressure.
I have seen the Oring on the fuel pump fail when the pump was installed incorrectly. When that happns the FP has a real hard time maintaining pressure.

Do you know anyone with a Wideband O2? or a dyno in your area?

If you could check A/F with a wideband that should help narrow down the problem but I still think your base timing is too advanced and I would just pull it back more.

-Seth

 

[DSM_23]

Ha a dyno or wideband, I wish, around here theres nothing but v8s and hicks Im moving this summer and cant wait But anyways Im the only one that has any tuning stuff in this area, my other DSM friends have loggers and such, but no wideband. Im about to buy an EGT in the near future, so that should help. I dont understand why my timing should have to be pulled back so much. Does it have anything to do with my 272 cams? Maybe that could have messed with the timing a tad.

 

[sbiggi]

Ha a dyno or wideband, I wish, around here theres nothing but v8s and hicks Im moving this summer and cant wait But anyways Im the only one that has any tuning stuff in this area, my other DSM friends have loggers and such, but no wideband. Im about to buy an EGT in the near future, so that should help. I dont understand why my timing should have to be pulled back so much. Does it have anything to do with my 272 cams? Maybe that could have messed with the timing a tad.

Cams shouldn't make much of a difference.

EGT gauge is useless as a tuning tool.
Get a wideband instead.

 

[cfisher]

I have somewhat of the same issue. I've got my lows settings below. My logger states my fuel trims are pretty much perfect but my bumper says otherwise and I get black carbon on it. I have to clean it off about once a week or it really starts to build up. I've been told this is because I have no cat? What do you guys think. I've got 680cc inj, walbro 255 and aeromotive afpr at stock settings.

1K -15
2K -15
3K -15
4K -24
4.5K -28
5K -28
6K -28
7K -28

 

[sbiggi]

Here is a semi easy way to diagnose this.

Do a 3rd gear pull, immediatly turn the car off.
Pull over and pull the spark plugs out.

Take good pictures of each.

Its easy to read spark plugs.

If there is shiney specks all over the plug/ground strap, then you are denonating.

You can tell if the timing is good based on the color change on the ground strap.
It should change color right at the curve.
Before the curve: to much timing.
After the curve: not enough

See if you can get a picture of the plugs after a pull.

Other then that, I cant diagnose this any better with out more tools (ie wideband, being there my self)

-Seth