Replaced transmission, clutch now dragging.

[jerrylarsen]

So my transmission exploded, so I replaced it, and the clutch, (tob, pressure plate, friction disk replaced the flywheel) and new cv axles. Now I have no pressure in the clutch petal until I'm at the very bottom maybe inch of petal. And most of the time the clutch doesn't disengage fully so it dragging and you can put it into gear if your not moving.. So any ideas what I could do? Also it sometimes pulls itself out of gear when under load (it's a 4g63 fwd)

 

[jerrylarsen]

Thing is, it was pushing too far, if I held the clutch 2 inches off of the floor it would shift smoothly, if I held it to the floor it was stuck in its gears...

 

[keltalon]

Thing is, it was pushing too far, if I held the clutch 2 inches off of the floor it would shift smoothly, if I held it to the floor it was stuck in its gears...

Although strange glad you worked it out cool.

 

[donniekak]

Please explain how lengthening the rod is a band aid sir I am all ears. Evidently no one else can offer any better solution I have solved many of clutch issues with a longer slave cylinder rod. It boils down to this truth, either he's going to use a longer slave cylinder rod or pull the transmission and shim the shift fork all other fixes has fail in his process of elimination thus far and by the way FYI both methods has been long accepted as a proper fixes in the dsm community for years

I wonder if your lengthened rod is part of the clutch slip issue limiting you to 809whp? It's worth a look. I've seen many poorly adjusted clutches that don't drag on a shift, but instead preload the pressure plate fingers.

 

[keltalon]

I wonder if your lengthened rod is part of the clutch slip issue limiting you to 809whp? It's worth a look. I've seen many poorly adjusted clutches that don't drag on a shift, but instead preload the pressure plate fingers.

I highly doubt it but good try. And I must say The clutch in my car is only rated for 650 ft lbs of torque I am putting down to the ground almost 700lbs ft lbs of torque
I am way out of the range of this awesome single disc clutch. Naturally it's going to give at its limits Try again while I catch my breath from laugher

 

[1qkfwd]

The extended rod "IS" a band aid. If you look at the position of the fork in the bell housing and the slave end is to close to the engine block side requiring a longer rod, the fork will end up hitting the inside of the trans and eventually bend the fork or bend the metal bracket that attaches to the end of the master cylinder causing more problems down the road.

Make sure everything is tightened down. Means slave, trans to block is all tight, master is tight. Make sure your clutch pedal assembly is not worn out. There are fixes for that here. Most the time when you replace a clutch and pressure plate you want to also replace the fork and pivot ball. I've reused them but the side affect is that you will have to shim the pivot ball to get the fork closer to the pressure plate.

 

[1qkfwd]

OP can you post up a pic of where the clutch fork sits in the square hole in the trans?

 

[keltalon]

The extended rod "IS" a band aid. If you look at the position of the fork in the bell housing and the slave end is to close to the engine block side requiring a longer rod, the fork will end up hitting the inside of the trans and eventually bend the fork or bend the metal bracket that attaches to the end of the master cylinder causing more problems down the road.

Make sure everything is tightened down. Means slave, trans to block is all tight, master is tight. Make sure your clutch pedal assembly is not worn out. There are fixes for that here. Most the time when you replace a clutch and pressure plate you want to also replace the fork and pivot ball. I've reused them but the side affect is that you will have to shim the pivot ball to get the fork closer to the pressure plate.

! Well I must say to each his own. Mod your car how you like right...........Some people evidently have no idea how far a fork have to travel to hit the inside of the tranny. Use the the rod or pull the tranny and shim. Most use the rod until at some point they need to change the clutch then they shim for proper placement of the shift fork. Band aid not hardly because the rod works flawless for many years. A band aid will not last.

 

[bmxfelon420]

Here's a video I remembered watching that explains how to adjust the whole system and where adjustments can go wrong and why

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[jerrylarsen]

I'll post a picture of where Ithey sits if someone tells me how to do it on a iPhone haha

 

[pauleyman]

Its not a baid aid. You replaced some component in your transmission that doesn't exactly match what you pulled out and a lot of times this is due to normal wear and tear. You are going to frustrate the heck out yourself with modding these dsm if you think that some issues can be fixed by normal tech standards and most who do, don't last long in this dsm performance game! I am always fascinated and tickled to death at the number of "parting my complete setup" listings in the classified section of this forum that is where frustration leads everytime.

I have news a flash for you most everything you do modding your dsm will be an out of the box fix and as stated above a fix is a fixOh I forgot to mention that I have ran an extended slave cylinder rod for years adding the nut just lets you know that you will need one granted if your issue isn't more serious . Here is a link so you can get that car up and running http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/250795986232 Pay special attention to how many of these extended slave cylinder rods has been sold by this guy giving evidence of just how common a fix this method is!

OK since you seem so adamant about this here is why it's a band aid. When the clutch hydraulics are working properly you can push the slave piston back into it's bore. It does this by design to self adjust as a clutch disk wears. When a disk wears it gets thinner and the pressure plate fingers will change position (get closer to the throwout bearing) because they don't have to push as far. This pushes the bearing farther and the reason clutch pedal adjustment doesn't change is..well you guessed it because the piston can push back in it's bore. In the very first bit of travel of the master cylinder piston it will close the orifice in the master that allows hydraulic motion. At this point if you tried to push the slave piston back in you couldn't. So once that point is reached in the master then the whole system starts moving. If you add a longer slave rod all you did was push the piston back into it's bore a little further.....WAIT FOR IT!!!
So why do some people have a change when they do this "mod"? Well what happens if you bottom the piston out in it's bore? It can go no further so whatever free play is left would be taken up by the longer rod and you are preloading the fork. For all practical purposes you are pushing on the clutch just a little bit before you actually touch the pedal and activate any hydraulic action. There is one more possibility but it's untested. If there is any air in the system it would be worse if it's in the slave because you have more area to push (the area of the face of the piston). If the air is in the line you have a much smaller diameter to play with. By using an extended rod you can assure nothing is in the slave as you will bottom out the piston.
A few more things. There is a fixed distance between the transmission surfaces (inside the bellhousing) and the block. The flywheel (if it's new) will have a known distance relative to these surfaces as will the clutch fork and throwout bearing. So why then do we sometimes suggest shimming the fork etc etc. Well If you cut the surface of the flywheel you most certainly change the distances just mentioned. If you started with brand new everything then ideally you would shim the ball pivot by the amount you cut the flywheel each time. So why isn't this something mentioned in the factory manual? Because a stock clutch would never require it. Aftermarket clutches are more susceptible to problems because to acquire the clamping force they do they not only use stiffer springs but the pivot points (that you don't see inside the pressure plate) are modified/moved to increase the clamping force but this is done at the expense of the amount of travel required to disengage the unit. This isn't a big problem until you add up wear in the components, flywheel cut several times, worn clutch pedal assemblies and sometimes less than adequately performing hydraulic components. You may also add in there is more than one diameter slave cylinder piston available (NT in the mix also) and sometimes the wrong part gets installed somewhere along the way. This is another reason why OEM parts are recommended. You can be sure you are using the part designed to do the job. If the parts in the system (ALL OF THEM) are not worn considerably and the system is adjusted and bled properly no shimming or longer fork should ever be required.
That is my two cents on the subject.

Oh one more thing, preloading the clutch leads to premature slipping, premature wear and undo pressure on the crank thrust bearing.
Have a nice day.

 

[keltalon]

OK since you seem so adamant about this here is why it's a band aid. When the clutch hydraulics are working properly you can push the slave piston back into it's bore. It does this by design to self adjust as a clutch disk wears. When a disk wears it gets thinner and the pressure plate fingers will change position (get closer to the throwout bearing) because they don't have to push as far. This pushes the bearing farther and the reason clutch pedal adjustment doesn't change is..well you guessed it because the piston can push back in it's bore. In the very first bit of travel of the master cylinder piston it will close the orifice in the master that allows hydraulic motion. At this point if you tried to push the slave piston back in you couldn't. So once that point is reached in the master then the whole system starts moving. If you add a longer slave rod all you did was push the piston back into it's bore a little further.....WAIT FOR IT!!!
So why do some people have a change when they do this "mod"? Well what happens if you bottom the piston out in it's bore? It can go no further so whatever free play is left would be taken up by the longer rod and you are preloading the fork. For all practical purposes you are pushing on the clutch just a little bit before you actually touch the pedal and activate any hydraulic action. There is one more possibility but it's untested. If there is any air in the system it would be worse if it's in the slave because you have more area to push (the area of the face of the piston). If the air is in the line you have a much smaller diameter to play with. By using an extended rod you can assure nothing is in the slave as you will bottom out the piston.
A few more things. There is a fixed distance between the transmission surfaces (inside the bellhousing) and the block. The flywheel (if it's new) will have a known distance relative to these surfaces as will the clutch fork and throwout bearing. So why then do we sometimes suggest shimming the fork etc etc. Well If you cut the surface of the flywheel you most certainly change the distances just mentioned. If you started with brand new everything then ideally you would shim the ball pivot by the amount you cut the flywheel each time. So why isn't this something mentioned in the factory manual? Because a stock clutch would never require it. Aftermarket clutches are more susceptible to problems because to acquire the clamping force they do they not only use stiffer springs but the pivot points (that you don't see inside the pressure plate) are modified/moved to increase the clamping force but this is done at the expense of the amount of travel required to disengage the unit. This isn't a big problem until you add up wear in the components, flywheel cut several times, worn clutch pedal assemblies and sometimes less than adequately performing hydraulic components. You may also add in there is more than one diameter slave cylinder piston available (NT in the mix also) and sometimes the wrong part gets installed somewhere along the way. This is another reason why OEM parts are recommended. You can be sure you are using the part designed to do the job. If the parts in the system (ALL OF THEM) are not worn considerably and the system is adjusted and bled properly no shimming or longer fork should ever be required.
That is my two cents on the subject.

Oh one more thing, preloading the clutch leads to premature slipping, premature wear and undo pressure on the crank thrust bearing.
Have a nice day.

Okay we can go on and on on this matter first I must say we should have defined what a band aid really is and here it is from Webster's dictionary "
Band–Aid
: able to help or improve something only for a short period of time." People who chose to use an extended rod as a solution do so not as a temporary fix or for any short periode of time , the rod has served as a permanent fix for many of us and has lasted for years why , because it works and that is why the extended rod is one of the most sold dsm parts to date. And as far as the rod causing clutch slipping and preloading the pressure plate is just plain absurd if installed properly. No one has pushed a single stage clutch to the limits as I have. My car held 801whp and 608ft lbs torque with an extended rod with ease for over a yrs and half to present without any issue and I take my hats off to tim and southbend for such an awesome product. My car is making in excess of 900whp no single clutch will hold that power I don't care what you say. I have been shaking my head big time over the fact that some people here are so dead set on beating a dead horse on such a small issue as an extended rod and remind you that has proven itself for years, is just besides me. what really is happening is that the newbie and little guys are the ones that suffers and are deprived of the benefits of ever reaching any satisfaction of having a moddedd dsm that performs anything like the few they are trying to imulate. This tactic is used all the time keep the little guy to on the bottom and this is very sad. I was the little guy at one time but I got tired of being on the bottom So I started doing things my way and only then when I got some real results Op man you got to fix your car the way that makes you happy most here will respect and understand. I am just saying the extended rod has worked for many of us.

 

[bmxfelon420]

Kel I agree that there are situations where the rod may be necessary, but I do also see what pauley says in that people often go to it as quick fix rather than addressing the other 5 issues causing their problem. I'm sure there are situations where adjusted properly that may be necessary, but i'd also be willing to bet 90% of the people that install them or more havent followed the correct adjustment procedure or have the correct step height, or both.

 

[jerrylarsen]

the way my car is working, i believe the extended rod would only hinder me, because i had to screw the master cylinder rod further in so i could push it to the floor and have it disengage, it would disengage if i held it about 1-2" off of the floor, pushing it further would cause the clutch to somehow drag.. I believe that the fingers on the pressure plate were rubbing on the friction disk. but i cant be sure.


my petal moves about 90% of its travel before there is any pressure at all, why? i have no clue haha maybe i torqued the pressure plate too hard? i dont think so though because i used my snap on digital torque wrench and set them all to 14 lbft as i have read many times is correct. so... any ideas what i could do? its drivable as is its just a pain in the butt

Also i have noticed it forcefully pulls itself out of fourth gear sometimes while under load if that helps at all

 

[gofer]

If you are having problems with a clutch adjustment, don't try and lengthen the clutch slave cylinder rod. It may seem like an easy fix and can correct for a worn pedal assy. common on 1g's, but more often then not it isn't the right way to fix it.

By extending the slave cylinder rod and take up additional free play, it inturn puts constant pressure on the release bearing.

This site explains 2g DSM clutch pedal adjustment well. Eclipse Clutch Pedal Adjustment

Where does your clutch fork sit coming through the bell housing?

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[mootink]

bmx beat me to the video i was going to post but this one could help too.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[jerrylarsen]

Like 3/4 of the way towards the passenger wheel

 

[pauleyman]

That is likely most of your problem. The flywheel step height is likely very wrong. What is the step?

 

[jerrylarsen]

I'm not going to lie, I have no clue, not the vaguest idea.

 

[jerrylarsen]

It was exactly the same as my old flywheel that worked mostly fine

 

[pauleyman]

Didnt you change clutches? Drop the tranny and fix this.

 

[jerrylarsen]

I did change clutches... I don't know how to fix it.. What should I be fixing?

 

[gofer]

The step height on your flywheel.

http://web.archive.org/web/20130607...raceengineering.com/clutchandflywheeltech.htm

 

[jerrylarsen]

Sooooooooooo buy a new flywheel? And fork and pivot ball and stage 2 clutch just for good measure?

 

[1qkfwd]

Like 3/4 of the way towards the passenger wheel

Should be on just over the halfway point towards the drivers side. Nothing a pivot shim wont fix. But if you drop the trans to shim that, you might as well check the flywheel step height to know what its at to save another trans drop.

 

[jerrylarsen]

Should be on just over the halfway point towards the drivers side. Nothing a pivot shim wont fix. But if you drop the trans to shim that, you might as well check the flywheel step height to know what its at to save another trans drop.

But, my clutch was going too far so I don't believe it will help me to just shim it