Replaced Timing belt barely starts but drives perfect

[Sk8er07999]

Ok here's what happend. Balance shaft belt broke without harming Timing belt. So my girlfriends dad (he's a retired mechanic) and I pulled everything out to replace the belts now here's the wierd part. Before removing the T-belt we planned on aligning the cam sprockets, oil pump, and crank. The book says we should have to turn the motor over by hand up to eight times or something until they all line up. We turned it over like thirty times and not once did they all line up. Not even close. The cams did but when those where lined up every time something else was off. We where both like WTF? According to the book there is no way the car would even run. So we decided to make sure it ran before taking the belt off. I jumped in the car and turned the key. It started right up perfectly! Since there was no water pump we turned the car off after a few seconds. After thinking about it for a while we decided to mark everything as it was and pull of the belt. Now before installing the belt we aligned the crank to the TDC mark on the block, the oilpump to it's mark, and the notches in the cam gears where aligned together as well as with the top of the head. (oh yeah and the b-shaft we had all aligned with the belt on too). With the belt on we turned the motor over by hand to make sure it didn't stop like the valves where hitting or something. Seemed fine and after turning it over time after time everything lined up perfectly like it says it should in the book belt was tight auto tensioner was perfect. So we decided to start it. What do you know it started right up! Wierd.... Shut the car off, put everything back on. Went to start it and batt was dead. So we jumped the car and it wouldn't start. finally got it to start but this time it sounded like I had cams with like a 5 foot lift! Barely ran but sounded cool. Stared at it for a while and decided to take if for a drive. Car runs perfect! Has just as much power if not more then before! Also my oil pressure is alot better as well. No valve tick or lifter tick either very pleased but the thing idles like a piece of junk. When it's could it refuses to start and when it does it's like I have massive cams. After reaching operating temp it goes away but has the worst idle I have ever seen. anywhere from 600-1500 and it just doens't want to go idle. What the hell? Thanks to anyone who read the story. But it doesn't end there noticed car was leaking a ton of oil. Drove back home, pulled apart and oil was coming out from behind the auto tensioner, we forget to fully tighten it down. Who knew the holes go all the way in... BUT this gave us a chance to make sure everything aligned. And it DID! put it back to together and still barely started when cold and when hot it has the worst idle I have ever seen. AND IT NEVER IDLED LIKE THIS BEFORE T&B SHAFT BELT CHANGES. Whats the prob? IAC? BISS? When the car is running I unplugged the harness to the IAC motor and it doesn't even have an affect on the idle at all. Thats wierd. I am thinking bad IAC. Do you think thats a good bet? I don't know wtf is goin on and it's really getting to me. Any help would be great thanks.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by jpolizo

...
I guess we're from different schools.

Can't you ever stop trying to insult people.

I did make a mistake, this clearly was not 3 sentences.

"1&4 piston are 3/4 way up, set cams so #4 is on the rock, pull crank to TDC, rotate balance shaft insert rod the engine is timed."

It couldn't be any simpler but you want to get smart mouth when basic concepts are overlooked and substitute more quips about words you claim to not understand That sentence has to be worth it's weight in gold if you ever though about being a mechanic. It is not possible to ever make a mistake when that is solid in your head. The people that compile these books you read are -technical_writers- they don't have to know how to fix an engine. Someone gave them a fist full of notes and you don't know their credentials either. To fill up pages so they can get paid they can make things more complicated than they really are.

Instead of saying WOW, golly gee whiz, thank you very much! I just keep seeing the attitude. Maybe you can con some young kid but it doesn't work on me.

On my screen there is a yellow box that starts out with "When replying~" ... "Teach newbies~" ... "don't flame~"

Insisting he had to do it by some book you read coupled with attitude towards him and me makes my hackels stand on end. Don't you think there is enough s..t in this world without you adding to it. You don't make anybody's day, you piss them off.

 

[jpolizo]

Originally posted by GTM
Can't you ever stop trying to insult people.

I did make a mistake, this clearly was not 3 sentences.

"1&4 piston are 3/4 way up, set cams so #4 is on the rock, pull crank to TDC, rotate balance shaft insert rod the engine is timed."

It couldn't be any simpler but you want to get smart mouth when basic concepts are overlooked and substitute more quips about words you claim to not understand That sentence has to be worth it's weight in gold if you ever though about being a mechanic. It is not possible to ever make a mistake when that is solid in your head. The people that compile these books you read are -technical_writers- they don't have to know how to fix an engine. Someone gave them a fist full of notes and you don't know their credentials either. To fill up pages so they can get paid they can make things more complicated than they really are.

Instead of saying WOW, golly gee whiz, thank you very much! I just keep seeing the attitude. Maybe you can con some young kid but it doesn't work on me.

On my screen there is a yellow box that starts out with "When replying~" ... "Teach newbies~" ... "don't flame~"

Insisting he had to do it by some book you read coupled with attitude towards him and me makes my hackels stand on end. Don't you think there is enough s..t in this world without you adding to it. You don't make anybody's day, you piss them off.

Net information content: 0.0

 

[bdropped]

WTF? if you 2 have a problem with each other take it some where else. This thread was made to get help not for you 2 to act like little children.

 

[jpolizo]

You are correct. I apologize for participating in this.

 

[LandoAWD]

Originally posted by bdropped
WTF? if you 2 have a problem with each other take it some where else. This thread was made to get help not for you 2 to act like little children.

 

[Sk8er07999]

Holy Crap alot happend when I wasn't here. Well thanks for the info anyways.

 

[Doug99RS]

too funny. Ok... a few things that may have been overlooked in this whole flame war of a thread were:

"The book says we should have to turn the motor over by hand up to eight times or something until they all line up."

--Common sense says that the correct number of times (which was six) definitely could have fallen in to the "or something" category and also would have come before "eight" times. If the original author of the thread had left it at "we rotated it eight times and it didn't line up." then a response indicating the wrong procedure, in a polite manor, would have been appropriate. But the description was the unprecise part and not the actual method used at the time. Don't blast someone out of the water for their very first post if it's not exact.

"We turned it over like thirty times and not once did they all line up. Not even close."

--Once again common sense is avoiding a few people here. 30 divided by 8 goes in three times and some change. 30 divided by 6 goes in 5 times. The bottom line was that the crank was rotated about thirty times and of the 5 possible chances that the timing marks COULD have lined up.... THEY DIDN'T. So the guy did the best he could with what he had which was to get it as close to correct and then tear in to it. As GTM has pointed out the cams could be off one tooth and it still run. I myself has set a 4g63 up wrong once, by one tooth, and still had it run. Wouldn't accelerate worth a damn but it still ran. If a secondary timing belt comes off then it's no uncommon for it to cause the primary belt to jump. Most cases cause it to throw the belt all together but this could have been the guy's lucky day and it only jumped a tooth with no damage.

"Now before installing the belt we aligned the crank to the TDC mark on the block, the oilpump to it's mark, and the notches in the cam gears where aligned together as well as with the top of the head. (oh yeah and the b-shaft we had all aligned with the belt on too). With the belt on we turned the motor over by hand to make sure it didn't stop like the valves where hitting or something. Seemed fine and after turning it over time after time everything lined up perfectly like it says it should in the book belt was tight auto tensioner was perfect. So we decided to start it. What do you know it started right up!"

--Bottom line was that the timing marks were all lined up at the end of the repair. The engine was spun over several times and the marks eventually lined back up correctly. While there is a chance that the balance shaft mark was lined up, yet the weights were not in the correct position, it still will run and not damage anything, short term. You can't disect someone's posts one sentence at a time and ignore the final outcome. We are not part of a school system grading someone's posts based on grammar, punctuation, and paragraph form. I am here for the transferring of knowledge and for social interaction. I am sorry there are so many people that would prefer to ignore that spirit of a person's message and pick apart their means of getting it across.

I would like to see more threads address someone's mistakes and ignorance (defined as a lack of education, not to be confused with stupidity) in an educational and positive manor.

As for the problem that still persists... a mis-fire or rough running condition typically is not caused by the IAC, BISS, or throttle plate. All three of those components allow or prevent air to the manifold, not the individual intake ports. If the complaint with the car is an actual mis-fire condition then you could suspect things like the TPS sensor, valve timing, intake leaks, sensor failures, plugs and wires, coil packs and so on. If it's irratic idle that fluctuates then the IAC is definitely a possibility. Also keep in mind that the occasional sputter noticed at the rear of the exhaust can be either normal or caused by an exhaust leak. I spent many a dollar trying to fix a "miss" that was exhibited in the exhaust that was actually loose manifold bolts/studs. It wasn't the plugs, wires, distributor, or carb.

Can you give a better description of the symptoms?
Doug

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by Doug99RS
too funny.
...
Also keep in mind that the occasional sputter noticed at the rear of the exhaust can be either normal or caused by an exhaust leak. I spent many a dollar trying to fix a "miss" that was exhibited in the exhaust that was actually loose manifold bolts/studs. It wasn't the plugs, wires, distributor, or carb.

Can you give a better description of the symptoms?
Doug

You got that right. Argh!
.............

Though I had mentioned it here. The easiest method I know for checking pops in the exhaust that are not caused by a smog pump prob. Have a buddy hold a rag up against the exhaust tips so you may have to wet some of it to prevent fire. This additional back pressure will prevent some / all the fresh air from being sucked in on deceleration. The other requires more pressure on the rag to the point of stalling the engine while you listen for the exhaust gas leaks in fittings, manifold, and muffler. Since these parts are hot a listening hose is useful.

Your buddy is not going to like the job so have a box fan blowing air at his face and maybe even a deflector shield for it will somtimes spit out hot pieces of carbon that sting pretty good but it works.

Too bad I'd not seen the complaint sooner in your case, ... expensive lesson.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Doug99RS]

Trial and error. Expensive, but invaluable experience.
Doug

 

[jpolizo]

Originally posted by Doug99RS
too funny. Ok... a few things that may have been overlooked in this whole flame war of a thread were:

"The book says we should have to turn the motor over by hand up to eight times or something until they all line up."

--Common sense says that the correct number of times (which was six) definitely could have fallen in to the "or something" category and also would have come before "eight" times. If the original author of the thread had left it at "we rotated it eight times and it didn't line up." then a response indicating the wrong procedure, in a polite manor, would have been appropriate. But the description was the unprecise part and not the actual method used at the time. Don't blast someone out of the water for their very first post if it's not exact.

"We turned it over like thirty times and not once did they all line up. Not even close."

--Once again common sense is avoiding a few people here. 30 divided by 8 goes in three times and some change. 30 divided by 6 goes in 5 times. The bottom line was that the crank was rotated about thirty times and of the 5 possible chances that the timing marks COULD have lined up.... THEY DIDN'T. So the guy did the best he could with what he had which was to get it as close to correct and then tear in to it. As GTM has pointed out the cams could be off one tooth and it still run. I myself has set a 4g63 up wrong once, by one tooth, and still had it run. Wouldn't accelerate worth a damn but it still ran. If a secondary timing belt comes off then it's no uncommon for it to cause the primary belt to jump. Most cases cause it to throw the belt all together but this could have been the guy's lucky day and it only jumped a tooth with no damage.

"Now before installing the belt we aligned the crank to the TDC mark on the block, the oilpump to it's mark, and the notches in the cam gears where aligned together as well as with the top of the head. (oh yeah and the b-shaft we had all aligned with the belt on too). With the belt on we turned the motor over by hand to make sure it didn't stop like the valves where hitting or something. Seemed fine and after turning it over time after time everything lined up perfectly like it says it should in the book belt was tight auto tensioner was perfect. So we decided to start it. What do you know it started right up!"

--Bottom line was that the timing marks were all lined up at the end of the repair. The engine was spun over several times and the marks eventually lined back up correctly. While there is a chance that the balance shaft mark was lined up, yet the weights were not in the correct position, it still will run and not damage anything, short term. You can't disect someone's posts one sentence at a time and ignore the final outcome. We are not part of a school system grading someone's posts based on grammar, punctuation, and paragraph form. I am here for the transferring of knowledge and for social interaction. I am sorry there are so many people that would prefer to ignore that spirit of a person's message and pick apart their means of getting it across.

I would like to see more threads address someone's mistakes and ignorance (defined as a lack of education, not to be confused with stupidity) in an educational and positive manor.

As for the problem that still persists... a mis-fire or rough running condition typically is not caused by the IAC, BISS, or throttle plate. All three of those components allow or prevent air to the manifold, not the individual intake ports. If the complaint with the car is an actual mis-fire condition then you could suspect things like the TPS sensor, valve timing, intake leaks, sensor failures, plugs and wires, coil packs and so on. If it's irratic idle that fluctuates then the IAC is definitely a possibility. Also keep in mind that the occasional sputter noticed at the rear of the exhaust can be either normal or caused by an exhaust leak. I spent many a dollar trying to fix a "miss" that was exhibited in the exhaust that was actually loose manifold bolts/studs. It wasn't the plugs, wires, distributor, or carb.

Can you give a better description of the symptoms?
Doug

Well, I disagree with this. Here's the quote: "Lines never not once even came close to lining up BEFORE WE TOOK THE BELT OFF!!!! and the car ran fine. CAMS LINED UP BUT CAMS+CRANK+OIL PUMP never not once lined up before we took it off.".

The only explanation we've so far seen for this engine running with the timing marks in the wrong position is that there is a misformed cam gear. We've brought up the possibility that the gear is one tooth off, but not misformed, but that's not what the guy said.

I guess we all have different experiences and are all trying to help in our own way. When I hear hoofbeats I think of horses and not zebras. So if someone tells you that their 4G63 only runs with the timing marks in the wrong position -- is your first impression that they have a defective cam gear or that they are looking at something incorrectly? I they don't know some of the basics in the timing procedure, do you ignore that?

As I said, I guess we all come from different schools.

 

[Doug99RS]

I did not ignore the person's lack of experience going in to the project. But unlike most people, everything that he listed as having done, he did right. He undertook the job with the assistance of a trained professional. He used service manuals to check timing marks PRIOR to removal, noted the descrepencies prior to taking things apart, and at least got all the marks to line back up when reinstalling everything.

And it's not a matter of the engine lining up wrong, yet still running perfect. If you'd read his posts or my posts containing his posts then you'd see that the ONLY time the marks were OUT was PRIOR TO TEAR DOWN. He clearly said that upon reinstallation that the marks (maybe not the weights) all lined up prior to cranking the car and that, just like it says in the manual and just like anyone who knows how to replace a timing belt, they rotated the engine several times until the timing marks all lined back up properly.

If you'd like to re-read the entire thread and start over I'd recomend:
1. a fresh and positive attitude that does not include condiscending towards less experienced yet intelligent board members
2. ditching that "school of thought" that prevented you from properly reading what was actually written
3. and admitting you're wrong

After that we can get back on to actually helping someone with a problem after they've already proved that they have found a problem, corrected it, yet still have another problem and request assistance.
Good Day.

 

[jpolizo]

Originally posted by Doug99RS
I did not ignore the person's lack of experience going in to the project. But unlike most people, everything that he listed as having done, he did right. He undertook the job with the assistance of a trained professional. He used service manuals to check timing marks PRIOR to removal, noted the descrepencies prior to taking things apart, and at least got all the marks to line back up when reinstalling everything.

And it's not a matter of the engine lining up wrong, yet still running perfect. If you'd read his posts or my posts containing his posts then you'd see that the ONLY time the marks were OUT was PRIOR TO TEAR DOWN. He clearly said that upon reinstallation that the marks (maybe not the weights) all lined up prior to cranking the car and that, just like it says in the manual and just like anyone who knows how to replace a timing belt, they rotated the engine several times until the timing marks all lined back up properly.

If you'd like to re-read the entire thread and start over I'd recomend:
1. a fresh and positive attitude that does not include condiscending towards less experienced yet intelligent board members
2. ditching that "school of thought" that prevented you from properly reading what was actually written
3. and admitting you're wrong

After that we can get back on to actually helping someone with a problem after they've already proved that they have found a problem, corrected it, yet still have another problem and request assistance.
Good Day.

Allright, now I've gone and apologized for getting into a back-and-forth with GTM. So I think it's time for someone here to get off their high-horse, don't you think?

As to "positive attitude" and "condescending attitude: -- read above paragraph.

Regarding #2, what did I read wrong? It sounds to me like you read it wrong -- yes he said the timing marks were wrong "PRIOR TO TEAR DOWN" (your caps, not mine); he also said the car "ran fine" in that condition. Aren't you skipping something there? Why was that? How, exactly, does a 4G63 do that? He didn't say it was just the balance shaft marks -- he said " ... never not once even came close to lining up BEFORE WE TOOK THE BELT OFF!!!! and the car ran fine. CAMS LINED UP BUT CAMS+CRANK+OIL PUMP never not once lined up before we took it off."

So that's the first problem, isn't it? It doesn't seem to me like this diagnosis is going to get much further without figuring that out..

He said a "retired mechanic" helped him. What did this guy work on? I have a friend who's got an RX-7 that will likely smoke the fastest car you've ever had in your life and he did a custom sequential turbo setup on it himself; he worked as a professional mechanic for years and has worked on various race teams. He mistimed a 4G63 three times before he got it right.

On schools of thought -- is it your advice to ignore the manual? Should people just ask the forums what to do instead? Are we into skimming the VFAQ now?

Now trying to get back on topic -- does anyone have an idea how this car ran fine with all the timing marks wrong? The only thing I've heard is that the cam gear is bad. If that's true then he cannot just put it all back together with the marks lined up. I'd say the first order of business there is to get a correct set of timing gears then nobody is guessing how it's supposed to go back together.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by jpolizo
Allright, now I've gone and apologized for getting into a back-and-forth with GTM. So I think it's time for someone here to get off their high-horse, don't you think?

You just don't get it, as far as I'm concerned you are about two shakes from the danger zone. Your attitude stinks, I didn't fall off the turnip wagon yesterday when I noted that you were contentious. Go start your own thread, better yet, go start your own list where you can make up the rules of social discourse to suit yourself. If I see another post from you I will ask you be removed as a member. The ball is in your court. Behave or leave before someone does it for you.

GTM

 

[Doug99RS]

"Has just as much power if not more then before!"
Obviously something wasn't right before that is right now. A simple vacuum gauge will tell you whether you've got the timing marks lined up right or not.

As for the slam on "the fastest car I've ever had" it doesn't really make a difference as to how fast one can build a car so long as it's built right. I'm not dead yet and so considering that I've had a slant 6 duster, a 2gnt and a 95 neon... that's really not saying much for your mechanic friend. Know who you're talking about before you give such a poor comparison that may or may not do justice to your mechanic friend.

So back to the problem...
Obviously if the cam or gear were the problem, it would not have made it out of warranty before someone, somewhere caught it. A cam does not allow for independent gear movement without sheering off the dowel all together. The cam gears can only go on the cam one way since they're offset. That that pretty much rules out the mystery cam problem.

The timing marks were checked, double checked, and triple checked so the marks themselves are lined up. I've just explained above why the cams can't be mysteriously wrong. And it sure would be nice if someone brought up the last bits of info. But I'll go ahead and point them out.
1. it's running better now than it did before
2. it runs like crap only when cold and idle

Now a car that has wrong timing marks isn't going to run better now that the marks are lined up, it would run worse if not bend valves.

Hook up a vacuum gauge and verify that it's within 17-20 inches of vacuum. If engine vacuum is in check them valve timing is no longer a question. Next inspect plug condition, plug gap, and wires for signs of arcing. And just go from thier.
Doug
p.s. I'm going to bed now. Hopefully in the morning there will be some sort of intelligent response that actually offers some diagnostic procedures that wouldn't involve tearing down the engine all over again just to find out it wasn't necessary and would help diagnose the actual problem.

 

[Sk8er07999]

Yes exactly. The marks never lined up before removal. when we put the belt back on we checked the marks over and over again to make sure they where exactly perfect. Roast Beef suggested that the b shaft is out of phase and I believe that is most likely the cause of the rough idle. Ok here is description of the problem again. When I start the car when it's been sitting over night it will start up like normal then after oil pressure rises the idle drops down like normal but it drops all the way down to like 200. Then it bogs and dies. It will keep on doing this until it has reached operating temp. Once fully warmed up it will oscillate between 600-1200. The lights will dim and the engine will like studder. It rolls smooth but will get choppy as the rpm changes at idle. Any engine speed above 1500 is perfect.

 

[Sk8er07999]

Oh yeah and if you guys overlooked my post while you where arguing! just kidding. I did replace plugs, and inspected wires for arcing. No signs of arcing. Also I checked the gap on the plugs I pulled and they where within spec. 29-31. I regapped and put in new plugs. and that didn't solve anything. I also reset ecu and nothing happend. I didn't think this was the problem anyway but I figured I would give it a try. I need a boost/vacuum gauge badly so I would be able to check the vacuum. I think it's most likely the b-shaft but I will have to check the vacuum as well.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by Sk8er07999

...
then after oil pressure rises the idle drops down like normal but it drops all the way down to like 200.
...

Can you clarify the oil pressure sequence?

Are you saying as soon as the operating pressure is attained the idle starts to drop? There is an initial surge then stabalizes for a while and then starts a tapering sequence over a few min of warm up.

I saw the follow up post to this quoted and knew you had done those things.

And like you never achieved that sequence, maybe it was aftermarket replacement part with no marks. I paint marks before so they are easy to find, digital camera works great should you have any question.

If you don't mind we can pick this apart little at a time so we are all on the same wavelength... YOUR problem. It's interesting and there is something to be learned for it's just not computing.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Doug99RS]

I think you're on the right path then. If you suspect balance shaft mis-alignment then I'd go ahead and check that. By now you're more than familiar enough with the timing marks and should be able to handle it. Thanks for the update. Also, you can get a vacuum gauge from most parts stores. The cheap ones won't read boost bust since you may be facing a timing issue you only need to check it at idle anyways.
Doug

 

[Sk8er07999]

Well you know how when you first start your car the rpm's will shot up to about 1500 for a few seconds which is normal but then once it calms down it drops and within 5-10 seconds it will die. Once the car warms all the way up that is when the oil pressure will drop to the normal. During the cold start at idle, if I hold the gas peddle to keep the car from dieing at ~1000, it will be like a little above the middle line on the stock oil pressure gauge. Oil pressure seems normal to me it's just the cold starts that suck and once everything is warmed up it idles horribly.

 

[Doug99RS]

So let me ask you this. Does it miss fire to the point of stalling out? Is it a spitting and sputtering condition? Or is the idle normal, just slowly gets too low to remain running and eventually stalls out? (all this within the first few mins to maybe even seconds.
Doug

 

[Sk8er07999]

When it's cold it seriously sounds like it has a huge cam! and it shakes the car really bad. When I hold the gas down to keep idle around 1000 so it doesn't die it still shacks pretty bad but smoothes out as the car starts to warm up. Then once it gets warm it sounds like the cam gets smaller and smaller as it gets warmer and warmer

 

[Doug99RS]

So you mean it's a lope or sputter out of the exhaust? Were you able to check the balance shaft timing today?
Doug

 

[Sk8er07999]

Well today I met up with Roast Beef in Greely. We came to the conclusion that the balance shaft was fine since the engine was vibrating really badly like he said it should if it was out of phase. He noticed that the car does make a whirring sound when compared to his. Sounds like it's coming from the pulleys. We went our seperate ways and I went home and pulled off the power steering belt and waterpump/alternator belt. Started the car for a few seconds with the two belts off and it seemed to run alot better but idled at 2000. No whirring/whistling sounds. So I had a friend sit in the car and start it again later and I turned the biss down to try and reach 1000. Got it all the way down but the rpms where still jumping all over just like before. From anywhere between 800-1200. But this time I noticed that when the rpm drops low the engine shakes badly and there is a very noticable electrical sound that sounds like what a spark plug wire sounds like when it's arcing. It was like a zapping sound but wasn't a constant click like a spark plug wire would be. So you will here this zzzzzzzz when the rpms drop. then rpms come up and zzzzz goes away. and repeats the cycle about every 5-10 seconds. The zzzzz is definitly not a spark plug wire and is coming from the intake mani and throttly body area. I don't know much but it sounds like maybe a crazy IAC motor trying to bring the idle up once it drops to the 800 mark? You shouldn't be able to hear your IAC though right? It's really loud. When the hood is closed it's not noticable unless you listen closely. But when the hood is up it's as clear as day. It's wierd I can't figure it out and I am gettin pissed!

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by Sk8er07999
...

It's wierd I can't figure it out and I am gettin pissed!

It may be that this is going to take more than we can keep trying to diagnose.

zzzzz sounds could be from a power steering pump running low on fluid but would have nothing to do with your complaints.

I have mentioned air leaks, I've mentioned spraying carb spray around intake component gaskets to see if RPM changes. May have mentioned using a 2'-3' length of hose as a listening device to help pinpoint location.

Did you ever hook up a vacuum gauge to see what is happening and note those readings??

Cheers,
GTM

 

[jpolizo]

Before you took everything apart, when everything worked fine -- how far off was the crankshaft timing mark when the cam marks were lined up.

GTM -- you're called. If I stop posting because you threaten me; I may as well leave anyway. This board isn't about you.