Rebuilding AWD Trans

[andrewjscott]

The sides of all gears (not the contact surface) will normally have raised edges. I guess if you're working on the trans, and the trans is resting on the bellhousing, then this would be the 'top' of the gear. It's normal, although it's not good for durability. Shep and TRE machine the sides of the gears flat + smooth to remove those edges, which eliminates stress risers that can break teeth off the gears. Don't try this at home. Those guys have special machines that do this job with care and precision.

The chip on the bottom edge of the 5th intermediate gear sometimes happens when you pry the gear off the shaft. I wouldn't worry about one small chip. Those gears are brittle. Keep this in mind if you are tempted to re-assemble any part of the tranny with a hammer.

awesome, I got the same info from a friend at a tranny shop. the contact surfaces all look pretty decent. Next problem I've run into is I can't get a puller onto the taper roller bearing on the end of the intermediate shaft. The service manual shows a the puller pulling on the rollers and the cage, but that would destroy the bearing (not a big deal, new one going in) but also leave the inner race pressed on the bearing, and i would still not be able to get a puller on there as is it recessed into the gear face. My automechanics instructor gave me a suggestion of heating it, or using a sharp cold chisel, i'm a little reluctant to do that though, does anybody have suggestions?

 

[mwreed]

I used a bearing separator on mine. Some bearing came off ok, others didn't. They are being replaced so it didn't really matter. Be careful, I think at least one has a snap ring holding it in as well. I can't remember off the top of my head. I have a 12 ton shop press and used this cheap separator, but it did what I needed.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=3979

There are definately better quality tools, but this worked for me and I had gotten it on sale.

Mike

 

[andrewjscott]

I used a bearing separator on mine. Some bearing came off ok, others didn't. They are being replaced so it didn't really matter. Be careful, I think at least one has a snap ring holding it in as well. I can't remember off the top of my head. I have a 12 ton shop press and used this cheap separator, but it did what I needed.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=3979

There are definately better quality tools, but this worked for me and I had gotten it on sale.

Mike

Yeah, thats the exact tool i've been using (except snap-on ....from school...not that it works any better!) but i just can't seem to position it to get the inner race off the intermediate shaft. Its pretty used up though, the edge of the puller is a bit rounded, maybe i'll go at it with a die grinder and sharpen it up, see if i can't get it in there.

I know you have to order different thicknesses for snap rings, and spacers/shims. I've got the manual which lists all the part numbers and thicknessess, and i am assuming I can just order them from the dealership without much issue. Please correct me if i am wrong.

 

[mwreed]

I thought maybe you were using that. Did you try using it upside down and catching on the lip of the inner race? I think I had to do that one or twice. What I was referring to on the snap rings is that at least one bearing has a snap ring holding it on the shaft as well. I'd have to look at my manual to know which one I am referring to.

Yeah, I ordered my spacers and rings from the dealership. I just gave them part numbers and had them order them for me. They never have anything I need in stock. . I ended up using solid core solder for my clearance measuring. I think I went through 3 different types until I could get consistant readings.

Mike

 

[pneumo]

To pull a difficult bearing, just cut the cage off and remove the rollers, then use a die grinder to cut two slots on the inner race. Cut the slots on opposite sides so the puller can get a good grip. Cut the slots deep, but don't cut down to the shaft. Clamp the puller tightly around the bearing. It should come off easily this way.

As for the shift rails- did the tranny ever block you out of the next gear? Like you'd try to force it and it would stop half way into gear? If so, just replace the rail. A blocked gear leaves a groove that runs parallel to the motion of the selector finger.

 

[andrewjscott]

What I was referring to on the snap rings is that at least one bearing has a snap ring holding it on the shaft as well. I'd have to look at my manual to know which one I am referring to.

yeah, i found that one, those snap rings have a ton of tension on them.

To pull a difficult bearing, just cut the cage off and remove the rollers, then use a die grinder to cut two slots on the inner race. Cut the slots on opposite sides so the puller can get a good grip. Cut the slots deep, but don't cut down to the shaft. Clamp the puller tightly around the bearing. It should come off easily this way.

I'll give that a shot, some of those bearings are damn tight on there, on the force gauge it goes up to about 4 tonnes before i hear a loud "pop", followed by and "aw crap", followed by "we're ok"

As for the shift rails- did the tranny ever block you out of the next gear? Like you'd try to force it and it would stop half way into gear? If so, just replace the rail. A blocked gear leaves a groove that runs parallel to the motion of the selector finger.

They never really blocked me out of a gear, it just never shifted that nicely. Now are you talking about the shift fork? becuase I noticed on the fingers of the fork right at the ends there is a warn bit, but no grooves. So i would replace the shift fork, not the rail, right? or am i missing something.


Next issue is I can't get one outer race out of the case. No puller can get its teeth below the lip. it's for the intermediate shaft (i believe, can't remember off the top of my head) and has a plastic cup below it. i've heard you can heat the aluminum around it (using a pyrometer as to not go too hot)and should free up the bearing. Alternatively, you can run a mig weld bead around the surface which will shrink the race. I would probably tend to go with option A, as welding causes a great amount of heat, which aluminum doesn't react to, or is there another way to pull this last race out.

BTW, i really appreaciate all the help pneumo and mwreed, i'd love to give positive feedback to both of you, but i can't quite figure out how to do it.

 

[snox135]

To remove the race I would put three short welds on it. Use tig if you can but mig or arc will work.

 

[pneumo]

Yeah, I'd replace any shift fork that shows signs of wear. They're cheap enough.

About the shift rails, I was refering to the end where the selector pushes against them. If the rails look OK, keep them.

Sometimes you can pull the outer race by using two thin screwdrivers and pry at opposite sides at the same time. It doesn't always work, but it's quick and easy to try.

 

[andrewjscott]

Yeah, I'd replace any shift fork that shows signs of wear. They're cheap enough.

About the shift rails, I was refering to the end where the selector pushes against them. If the rails look OK, keep them.

Sometimes you can pull the outer race by using two thin screwdrivers and pry at opposite sides at the same time. It doesn't always work, but it's quick and easy to try.

Tried the screw drivers, didn't work, the trans is back at school so i'm done work on it for the weekend. now when I said wear on the shift fork, i can't really judge weather its worn or not. All i see is a machine smooth, uniform finish on the tips of the fingers. i don't have a new one to compare to, but I took a look at the evo shift forks from jnztuning.com and besides the fact that they are made of different material, they look the same.

The shift rails look fine, everything else seems to be in good condition. While inspecting the bearings, there is some serious spauling some of the outer races, but i guess that is to be expected.

 

[andrewjscott]

few more questions. My rebuild kit did not come with diff bearings. Also came with 1 seal that looks a little different than the others. THe output shaft seals that came off the trans were different (same dimensions, just one side has an extra dust boot) my new seals are both the same; without the dust boot. I search around Chicago Rawhide and see if i can find the correct one, or the one without the dust boot work fine?

 

[andrewjscott]

few more questions. My rebuild kit did not come with diff bearings. Also came with 1 seal that looks a little different than the others. THe output shaft seals that came off the trans were different (same dimensions, just one side has an extra dust boot) my new seals are both the same; without the dust boot. I search around Chicago Rawhide and see if i can find the correct one, or the one without the dust boot work fine?

Well, turned out i got a FWD kit insted of an AWD kit. new kit should be here in a day or 2.

As for the outer race that was stuck in the case, we just used a torch and heated the aluminum around it to 200*F and it lifted right out. As for the inner races stuck on the shaft, took a die grinder, cut slots about 3/4 down toward the lower lip and got a gear puller on it. worked like a charm. I also took a good look at my output shaft, and the teeth are really warn, like, almost into points. Should I replace the output shaft, if so wheres a good place to get it (Team RIP will not ship to Canada)

 

[groundPork]

From what i've been reading, and speaking with some other guys who have been doing hi-po rebuilds on some domestic transmissions, it seems that any more than .010" total wear on the friction pads of the shift for (the one that slides the synchro slider side to side) ought to be replaced, or the trans may pop out of gear due to not completely and possitively engaging. Have not validated this, but it appears the general concensus says to replace if they look to have bad wear marks or discoloration from heat since they are usually pretty cheap.

Tried the screw drivers, didn't work, the trans is back at school so i'm done work on it for the weekend. now when I said wear on the shift fork, i can't really judge weather its worn or not. All i see is a machine smooth, uniform finish on the tips of the fingers. i don't have a new one to compare to, but I took a look at the evo shift forks from jnztuning.com and besides the fact that they are made of different material, they look the same.

The shift rails look fine, everything else seems to be in good condition. While inspecting the bearings, there is some serious spauling some of the outer races, but i guess that is to be expected.

 

[andrewjscott]

ok, got some pics of worn parts, can i get some opinions on wheather to replace or what I can get away with. (pics below)

Output shaft - I was quoted from the dealer 397 + 14% tax plus freight for it, basicly going to come out to 500 bucks. Mitsu Graveyard has a 22 spline shaft and female end for the transfer case for 125 USD. But I the t-case is recently rebuild and would perfer not to switch out a known good part, for a used part.

Shift Forks - 3-4 looks mint, 1-2 has slight wear, just smoothed out some of the casting marks, but you can still see some of the casting marks (not a very good picture). Its not even close to .010, it looks less than .005 and They fit with very little play in the slider hub.

Chiped 3rd gear. This is the one i've got differing opinions on. I've heard since its a constant mesh gear, and the face of the teeth are rather unaffected by the chip, that it's fine to put back in. Another person said it might be fine, but i've chipped the hardened surface away, so it will not last long.

If i had the money, i would love to replace all these but i'm already into it for way more than expected (with some engine and suspension work) But if's its got to be done, its got to be done, and i'll wait til the fall to finish it when I finish school and start working full time again. This car only gets driven hard in first and second gear (for autocross) the rest of the time its babied on the street. Let me know what you think.

 

[pneumo]

Nice pics.

For starters, the chip is on 4th gear, and it is kinda big. Big enough that I'd check into how it happened. Did anything else break in the tranny? Anything that might've bounced around and chipped that gear as it passed through? If you have plans to make good power and shift quickly, it would be a good idea to replace it. That gear might have seen big stresses that weakened the whole gear.

The 'output' shaft is also called the center shaft since it goes to the center diff. I'd replace it and the input shaft in the transfer case. Those things tend to wear during normal use due to slight freeplay in the center diff. Is that price Canadian? Seems a little steep. Have you tried JNZTuning.com? The have good prices on stock parts.

 

[andrewjscott]

Nice pics.

For starters, the chip is on 4th gear, and it is kinda big. Big enough that I'd check into how it happened. Did anything else break in the tranny? Anything that might've bounced around and chipped that gear as it passed through? If you have plans to make good power and shift quickly, it would be a good idea to replace it. That gear might have seen big stresses that weakened the whole gear.

The 'output' shaft is also called the center shaft since it goes to the center diff. I'd replace it and the input shaft in the transfer case. Those things tend to wear during normal use due to slight freeplay in the center diff. Is that price Canadian? Seems a little steep. Have you tried JNZTuning.com? The have good prices on stock parts.

yeah, for the center shaft is Canadian, the dealership couldn't believe it either. Hell, i could probably have one machined up for less! and i tried JNZ, but they don't have a center shaft listed. I'm actually waiting for a few parts from them including my double synchro second...its been about 2 weeks without any word, should probably give them a call.

I am not sure how the gear chipped, there was a ton of crap caught up in the magnet, including some pretty course stuff. I don't plan to put down a whole lot of power any time soon, plus, there won't be any quick shifts into 4th. Theres a guy in Ontario that has a blown trans; i'll talk to him about gettin the center shaft for sure and maybe his 4th gear if its not eaten up.

 

[dwdsm]

Make sure you replace your input and output shafts..According to shep they take a ton of stress and don't show any sign untill they snap...

 

[andrewjscott]

well, i've got about 2 weeks until my second gear arrives and I can start putting things back in the case. I was talking to a local tranny shop and they said with almost all their manual transmission that come into the shop, they reuse the shims that already installed, they just put new bearings, seals, and whatever else is needed. I do not plan on doing this, but i was curious if this is common practice in the transmission industry (not the hi-performance transmission industry obviously)

Also, the service manual calls for 3mm solid core solder, but i can only get my hands on 1/8th, pretty close but not exact. Will 1/8th work fine as its just being crushed to measure a preload?

 

[andrewjscott]

so unfortuantly i am still waiting on my parts. should be here any day. Just wondering what kind of break in prodcedures there are (easy driving, fluid change, fluid type ect). also any answers to my previous post would be great too. Thanks.

 

[pneumo]

For a rebuilt trans I recomend taking it easy for 500 miles, shift slowly and don't beat on it. Change the oil and check for heavy particles, some light metallic dust in the fluid is normal with new parts.

well, i've got about 2 weeks until my second gear arrives and I can start putting things back in the case. I was talking to a local tranny shop and they said with almost all their manual transmission that come into the shop, they reuse the shims that already installed, they just put new bearings, seals, and whatever else is needed. I do not plan on doing this, but i was curious if this is common practice in the transmission industry (not the hi-performance transmission industry obviously)

Also, the service manual calls for 3mm solid core solder, but i can only get my hands on 1/8th, pretty close but not exact. Will 1/8th work fine as its just being crushed to measure a preload?

I can't really speak for practices that may or may not be common in the transmission rebuild industry since I don't work for a trans rebuild shop. I have a feeling you're going to measure the clearances anyway, so why worry?

Don't fret over 3mm solder, it's just slightly bigger than 1/8th. If it worries you, just choose the thinner shim that fits within the specified tolerances. FYI I'm using 2.4mm rosin core solder.

 

[andrewjscott]

For a rebuilt trans I recomend taking it easy for 500 miles, shift slowly and don't beat on it. Change the oil and check for heavy particles, some light metallic dust in the fluid is normal with new parts.



I can't really speak for practices that may or may not be common in the transmission rebuild industry since I don't work for a trans rebuild shop. I have a feeling you're going to measure the clearances anyway, so why worry?

Don't fret over 3mm solder, it's just slightly bigger than 1/8th. If it worries you, just choose the thinner shim that fits within the specified tolerances. FYI I'm using 2.4mm rosin core solder.

Cool, thanks for the advice; i figured the solder didn't matter too much, as long as its thick enough to crush down to get a measurment. As for the fluid, the manual recommends 80W-90 Gear Oill; but from the sounds of it, most people (including myself) ran BG Synchroshift (hard to get in Canada) or Pennzoil Synchromesh (which i can get though work for about a buck a litre. I liked the synchromesh but will it have any negative effects on the break in?

 

[pneumo]

The only drawback to using good oil during break in is that you're just going to throw it away in a few weeks. Try using cheap 75-90 oil. You won't be driving hard during break in, so ordinary oil will protect just fine. A lighter weight oil will lessen the chance of grinding the gears, which will grind down those new, sharp engagement edges that you just paid for. Shift carefully when new, avoid any grinding!

 

[andrewjscott]

so unfortuantly i am still waiting on my parts.

Never got my parts though JNZ, said it was lost in the mail but becuase they shipped it as a gift though the USPS (which i did not ask for) there was no insurance on a 500 dollar order. They are still trying to find it but said it could take 3-4 months. I asked for a refund and they said no. so i filed a complaint with visa. I'm a little pissed at the whole situation, but JNZ seemed to want to try to help me, but the overall result was no help at all. Anyways, ordered a Shep 2nd gear earlier this week, will be here Jul 19th. I've noticed people installing an aftermarket trans filter (screen). Is it worth it? Also does anybody know any national brands that may produce it so i can get it though my job as an counterman?

Thanks

 

[RipperXX]

I am going with Redline MTL for my rebuilt trans.

http://www.extremepsi.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=17609&cat=1127&page=1

It was one of three which Jackson Trans recommended to use in it. Seems like the best of the three IMO.

 

[andrewjscott]

Ok, the gear clusters are all together, all races are in place. I just can't figure out one thing. Where do the oil guides go. The service manual doesn't have a very good picture. If anybody can tell me (or better yet, show me with a pic) that would be awesome. Thanks

 

[andrewjscott]

Ok, the gear clusters are all together, all races are in place. I just can't figure out one thing. Where do the oil guides go. The service manual doesn't have a very good picture. If anybody can tell me (or better yet, show me with a pic) that would be awesome. Thanks

Found a picture showing where the oil guides go.