Re-ring

[isaiah]

Ok, I've done some research and and a few questions, and would like a few opinions. I'm planning on re-ring my 1g DSM after the Christmas break. I plan on leaving the block in the car and removing the haed and the oil pan. So i thought while im doing this I want to replace the pistons with some wiseco 9:1 and use some acl tri-metal rod bearings. I plan on eventually hitting the 400-500whp range. I'm not sure if the engine has ever been rebuilt or touched it has 954xx miles on it. I will have all my machine work done at the local carquest machine shop, such as reconditioning or rods and removal and instalation of pistons(only machine shop in town)
My questions were:
1. Is the piston and bearing setup a good, and do i need to take the rods off first to measure what size rod bearings i need, or will the standard size be good?
I'm also wondering this about the ring size.
2. I was thinking of using arp rod bolts, but i sure about the machine work that needs to be done and if it affects the rod bearing size in any way?
3. For the head gasket, i was gonna get the topline head gasket set with some arp headstuds. Is this set up good for no more than 15 psi(im all stock so no high boost levels yet) Do the arp head studs require any kind of work done so i can use them?
4. I will be using 90octane pump gas(highest we got in town) but i can get aviation fuel. would a 2:1 mixture of pump to aviation be good for the higher cr(i think it should be around 97octane if mixed, which i believe should be fine, just like to be sure)
These are thing im just uncertain about, any help is good thanks

 

[Achelea]

I can't answer all of them, but I can help on some.

3.) Don't know, but my question is, are you going to have the Head rebuilt as well? I would think it would be better to get the Valves done/upgraded as well? That way when you go for the Cams, the head won't have to come off to be rebuilt. That, and a good cleaning is always good for parts.

4.) Well, I don't know if increasing compression on that octane is good or bad, so I won't bother with that end of the question. As for Aviation fuel?

NO! DO NOT USE AVGAS!!!!!

Reason being is Aviation fuel is still contains lead. And in our cars, it would foul the plugs, and ruin anything south of the combustion chamber. Nevermind the fact that it might damage seals and the like.

If you want 100 Octane or Race fuel, get it at a gas station. It's designed for cars, but be careful. Yes, according to the butt dyno, the higher octane fuel will go faster, but if your car is not tuned for it, there is a good possibility it will burn through valves and start melting parts. Fun, no?

 

[viperlp01]

^^^
I run leaded gas?? Sometimes... It hurts your o2 sensors but lubricates your top end.. Most race gas contains lead..

Your joking right.. You want to half ass a engine build.. There are so many things you need to learn.. Your skimping on a bunch of things that are vital to a strong long running engine.. There are so many things a machinist should check.. I have talked to some very reputal engine builders and they say your should always do a bore.. The cylinders warp over time.. Atleast get the bore checked.. Have your crank checked for straightness and get it micropolished.. I dont have all day so just go and talk to your engine builder/machist and ask him what he would do...

If you want 100 Octane or Race fuel, get it at a gas station. It's designed for cars, but be careful. Yes, according to the butt dyno, the higher octane fuel will go faster, but if your car is not tuned for it, there is a good possibility it will burn through valves and start melting parts. Fun, no?

People have been using aviation fuel in our cars for a long time.. If you dont have a cat and dont run it that often where you might hurt your o2 sensors then leaded fuel has no problems with our engines... BTW race gas will not make you "faster" More timing and a leaner tune makes you go faster... the higher the octane the more stable it is so it doesn't pre-ignite.

 

[Achelea]

^^^
I run leaded gas?? Sometimes... It hurts your o2 sensors but lubricates your top end.. Most race gas contains lead.

They might contain some lead, but not Nearly as much as 100 octane AVgas. The higher lead means the led will lead to fouling. Especially if you have Factory injectors. You might get away with it on larger injectors, but I'd personally Not risk it.

Not to mention our cats tend to melt under those conditions... assuming you still have it.

 

[JusMX141]

Are you planning this re-ring because you're bored, or are you suffering from a low-compression / excessive crankcase pressure situation?

The reason I ask is I just disassembled the engine in my '92 FWD for a rebuild- the reason for the teardown was leaky valve seals in the head. After 130k the rings had just .003" of wear, and the bearings showed absolutely NO wear at all. I'm wasting my time with the low end of this engine, but while it's down it's getting new parts. If your engine's as tight as mine was, you may be wasting your time as well.

Leaving the engine in the car is a real half-assed way to rebuild it. Sure I've done it in the past, but this was on REALLY low-budget jobs done to non-turbo cars. You're not able to remove the crank, you're not able to change the rear main seal....you're not able to do a lot of things that may eventually lead to reliability issues.

Reason being is Aviation fuel is still contains lead. And in our cars, it would foul the plugs, and ruin anything south of the combustion chamber. Nevermind the fact that it might damage seals and the like.

If you want 100 Octane or Race fuel, get it at a gas station. It's designed for cars, but be careful. Yes, according to the butt dyno, the higher octane fuel will go faster, but if your car is not tuned for it, there is a good possibility it will burn through valves and start melting parts. Fun, no?

You are horribly misinformed.

Much like sulfur is in diesel, lead is a lubricant in gasoline....it doesn't damage seals, it lubricates them. It's also very beneficial to valve seats and other upper-cylinder components. The only thing leaded fuel is known to harm is o2 sensors.


Where are you coming up with race fuel burning holes in valves? You know what burns holes in valves? LACK of race fuel.

Higher octane gasolines burn slower and cooler- not faster and hotter. If you've seen someone switch to race fuel and melt their engine shortly after, it was the fault of their tuning not the fuel.

 

[Achelea]

I had a certified Mitsu mechanic tell me the entire engine can be rebuilt with it in the car. Of course he pulls the cross member and had a lift to pick the car up so it might be easier at the dealership

I've also been looking through things bout Avgas, both in my school books (Aircraft Mechanic here) and looking online. Aviation fuel is leaded cause most aircraft engines have looser tolerances than cars do. It works great for older cars that have lower compression and were made to use leaded fuels.

Just because they both say Gas, doesn't mean they are the same thing. After all, The Alltrac and the GSX are the same right? 2.0 motors, AWD, 2 doors, both liftbacks. . . ((That example is just taking the Avgas and normal fuel debate to a different angle))

 

[viperlp01]

older cars had different valve seats then us which require some kind of lubrication for the top end which was supplied by the lead.. Im telling you man Ill go get aviation fuel today a full tank and run multiple WOT pulls at 25psi and my engine will not blow up... If anything aviation fuel is better because how rediculiously clean it is.. Older cars require leaded gas or at least a lead replacement to keep the top end lube'd up..

You can not get the crank out.. Its kind of attached to the flywheel ... unless he is majic mitsu mechanic you can not do a proper engine rebuild while it is in the car...

 

[Achelea]

older cars had different valve seats then us which require some kind of lubrication for the top end which was supplied by the lead.. Im telling you man Ill go get aviation fuel today a full tank and run multiple WOT pulls at 25psi and my engine will not blow up... If anything aviation fuel is better because how rediculiously clean it is.. Older cars require leaded gas or at least a lead replacement to keep the top end lube'd up..

You can not get the crank out.. Its kind of attached to the flywheel ... unless he is majic mitsu mechanic you can not do a proper engine rebuild while it is in the car...

I Never said the engine will blow up. It has far more lead in it than Race gas. You will foul plugs, O2 sensors, your cat, and since it burns a bit hotter around ground level, you will likely burn your valves.

I can think of several reasons not to. Avgas burns hotter at lower altitude. The lead forms small spheres when it starts to settle on parts. On plugs it can cause shorts. Never mind the fact that if one gets knocked loose and gets jammed between the exhaust valve and it's seat, you'll have a nice hot jet of burning fuel and air pointed Directly at the valve stem. If it doesn't get dislodged, the hot air burn through the stem and make the valve head can fall off. (The reason Exhaust doesn't burn the valves is because it's cooler than the actual flames that produced it,) And the fact it's not seating flat like it's meant to, it might be bent ever so slightly, and cause compression problems. Continuing down the exhaust path, it will coat the 02 sensor and throw off the readings and your computer sends the wrong amount of fuel. As it travels to the turbine blades, it can coat them in lead as well. Or if the exhaust is too hot, it could melt the turbine blades.

YES it feels fantastic to drive, And it doesn't seem to do any damage occasionaly. But I am telling you, it is not good to use. Our valves don't need the lubing older cars did because it's engineered differently. If our cars were meant to use AVgas, or leaded fuels, they would be designed to do so.

As for the motor rebuild in the car: He could change everything short of the actual Crankshaft without disconnecting the trans. For the crank he would disconnect the transmission to get to the flywheel and such. Like I said, he was at a dealership when he did this, so he could move the car up and down all day to pull parts.

You are horribly misinformed.

Much like sulfur is in diesel, lead is a lubricant in gasoline....it doesn't damage seals, it lubricates them. It's also very beneficial to valve seats and other upper-cylinder components. The only thing leaded fuel is known to harm is o2 sensors.

Where are you coming up with race fuel burning holes in valves? You know what burns holes in valves? LACK of race fuel.

Higher octane gasolines burn slower and cooler- not faster and hotter. If you've seen someone switch to race fuel and melt their engine shortly after, it was the fault of their tuning not the fuel.

I was referring to the AVgas. Also, I admit I forgot that detail. You have to tune for the fuel and current mods. The lead levels are vastly different between AVgas and Race fuel. nevermind the fact they are not marked using the same rating.

Aviation engines are built with different alloys than our motors, and so they use slightly different seals then cars do. That said, the composition of the fuel is different. All in all, AvGas is a Bad idea. Race gas is great. If you're tuned for it.

As for burning valves, I failed to mention the tune. I admit that mistake. Best gas in the world won't do beans if you don't tune the car for the fuel and current set up. I've seen the results of a bad set up in aviation for using the wrong fuel. We have to measure valves for Just that reason. But what do I know, I'm just a Certified A&P, not a car mechanic.

viperlp01, If you do run Avgas, Make a note of it. If the car fails later, I think it would be fair to bring this up.

 

[isaiah]

I'm re-ringing because i have low compression. readings a few weeks ago were cylinder;1:125 2:125 3:145 4:150. a wet test rasied 1 and 2 up to 150 and 145. i did leak-down test but it did have a pressure gauge so i didnt know how much psi of air was going into the engine, When i did this i could hear air hissing from the dipstick and the fill cap. Also under wot and 10psi i leave some smoke. idk how much.
I know its really halfass, its more a time and money issue . i do not plan on pushing it until a full rebuild. the who issue with the avgas is i'm not sure if i'll be getting detination with the higher cr.
Correct me if im wrong, but i believe this has been done on some turbo dsm's that where i got the idea from.
how long and how could it hold with this setup(just curious) without full rebuild

 

[joe sobo]

it is not how long it will last. the problem is you say that you will cheaply rebuild for now, then do a full rebuild down the road....
if the car is only lightly smoking, i THINK that you would be better off just driving the car the way it is until you have the time and money to do the full rebuild the right way. one time and done

 

[isaiah]

While i dont know how much its smoking. my friend said a lot but i dont't know beacuse im never behind my car at wot. That is a good idea. one of the reasons i want to do this is to fix compression and make some more power. The machine shop can do my rods, but I dont know why but the guy told me and my friend (he wanted some head work on his honda) that he doesn't do imports( meaning no mitsu, honda,nissan, subu, ect) he mainly works on v8s. which really sucks this ties into the time factor. it could that a month or more to send off, or find a machine shop near by that will be able to do what i need. So will this be fine? Havent other DSMer's done something simallar to what i want to do? I haven't read any thing wrong that has happened to people who have tried this. This is just my $.02
Is there anyone out there that has done this, if so, how is their motor running?

 

[Littlebeeper]

the thing is that you are going to spend all this money causing you to push back the full rebuild on this half ass rebuild and the car will likely not get better compression. for one the cylinder walls must be honed at least to seal with the new rings. the rings must also be cut to fit the culinders. then after all this the damn cylinder bores may be worn unevenly and still leak. i would just increase boost on the turbo (if you have the fuel and tunning capability) and make the extra power you want. you say you want 15psi, no more. with proper fuel, or even not so good tune if your really a gambling man, the stock engine will laugh at 15 PSI. i ran that the whole time i had my car.
run it as is and save the money you would spend on the 1/2 build to get to the full rebuild quicker. it only smokes when you go WOT and you only do that when not many people are around and your screwing with your friends so noone will mind. well except your friends but if they see you blowing smoke then they are behind and that sounds like your car ain't that hurt they are just hating cause they can't keep up

 

[isaiah]

the thing is that you are going to spend all this money causing you to push back the full rebuild on this half ass rebuild and the car will likely not get better compression. for one the cylinder walls must be honed at least to seal with the new rings. the rings must also be cut to fit the culinders. then after all this the damn cylinder bores may be worn unevenly and still leak. i would just increase boost on the turbo (if you have the fuel and tunning capability) and make the extra power you want. you say you want 15psi, no more. with proper fuel, or even not so good tune if your really a gambling man, the stock engine will laugh at 15 PSI. i ran that the whole time i had my car.
run it as is and save the money you would spend on the 1/2 build to get to the full rebuild quicker. it only smokes when you go WOT and you only do that when not many people are around and your screwing with your friends so noone will mind. well except your friends but if they see you blowing smoke then they are behind and that sounds like your car ain't that hurt they are just hating cause they can't keep up

Thanks, i understand what your saying. i was planning on honing the clyinders(i dont think i cleared that up) i've taken all this into consideration, but was hoping this would work for the time being turning up the boost cause me to smoke more. I want to fix compression so i can start making some more power,(FMIC, Turboback Exhaust, Gm MAF and MAFT, intake, then some drivetrain mods) I live in a honda and v8 town, i want to make some more power to put them down(sounds kinda corny) i've got this idea by searching "rering" and reading so of the treads. so what are the changes of compression fixing if i do this? Sorry if i sound stubburn. But how has done this, and what are their results? i'm trying to learn some more. so im open to ideas and if anyone know of a good close by dsm shop that could do machine work for me?

 

[bme91gsx]

what is the opinion on re ringing if the cylinders measure out on the money according to the specs? i have a block that measures right at nominal spec and am planning on going with standard parts.

Someone must have an opinion on this..

 

[river]

Money is no issue for me, but saving money never hurts...and I've done rebuilds in my own garage.

Whoever said you "have to have" a bore done, youre wrong. If your walls are in check and round, not oval, just line hone that block and call it good.

It would be best to micropolish the crank...but I've also done this on the cheap with emory cloth.

I've done a full rebuild reusing the 1G rod 2G piston combo I have for less than $300 in my own garage. And I've pushed 28psi w/ a Green, running 11.54's @ 123 on these "garage rebuilds".

OP, do your budget rebuild. Have the block line honed. Use ARP rod and head studs. They are re-usable so if you ever build the motor again, they can be utilized a second time. I'd stay away from the Topline HG and go with a mitsu OEM or the FelPro. I've had great experience with both OEM and the FelPro. The pistons you've opted for should be fine. Your local auto store should be able to get some beck/arnley piston rings. The ACL bearings you're after should work fine. Just make sure that your machine shop checks ring end gap, etc. The ARP rod studs won't mean modification needed to your pistons/rods. The ARP head studs however...you need to do a bit of modification for. It's not bad though, you just need to trim the "ear" off of the motor mount so the head can slide down the studs onto the block. I'll include a link for that. Oh, and stay away from avgas! If you want to up your octane rating and do some cooling, look into a progressive alcohol injection kit. SMC makes an awesome one.

ARP Head Stud Install for 1G TELs

 

[isaiah]

Money is no issue for me, but saving money never hurts...and I've done rebuilds in my own garage.

Whoever said you "have to have" a bore done, youre wrong. If your walls are in check and round, not oval, just line hone that block and call it good.

It would be best to micropolish the crank...but I've also done this on the cheap with emory cloth.

I've done a full rebuild reusing the 1G rod 2G piston combo I have for less than $300 in my own garage. And I've pushed 28psi w/ a Green, running 11.54's @ 123 on these "garage rebuilds".

OP, do your budget rebuild. Have the block line honed. Use ARP rod and head studs. They are re-usable so if you ever build the motor again, they can be utilized a second time. I'd stay away from the Topline HG and go with a mitsu OEM or the FelPro. I've had great experience with both OEM and the FelPro. The pistons you've opted for should be fine. Your local auto store should be able to get some beck/arnley piston rings. The ACL bearings you're after should work fine. Just make sure that your machine shop checks ring end gap, etc. The ARP rod studs won't mean modification needed to your pistons/rods. The ARP head studs however...you need to do a bit of modification for. It's not bad though, you just need to trim the "ear" off of the motor mount so the head can slide down the studs onto the block. I'll include a link for that. Oh, and stay away from avgas! If you want to up your octane rating and do some cooling, look into a progressive alcohol injection kit. SMC makes an awesome one.

ARP Head Stud Install for 1G TELs

Thanks for the advice. I've thought a abot it, and I'm going with a full rebuild, using turbo garges rebuild kits. It will take a little long to do, but with that i still can push 500+ HP(with eagle rods compared to 1g big rods) if the hp bug bits( which im sure it will). Also my darn supension is going out, so money needs to go to that right now. The full rebuild will hopefully be good, and i wont have to worry about something going out. The just my .02$.

 

[maxgst]

Hey, i need to re-ring my car as well due very low compression. I have a 300 dollar budget. What would I need to do this as safely as possible? this is what i have down so far
1-All new gaskets
2-head bolts
3-timing belt?
4-rings (how do I know which size I need?)
any thing else I might need? any tips on the procedure?
any help is appreciated...

 

[maxgst]

I have a 95 eclipse gst. the only major modification is the evo 3 16g gt but only running it at 6 psi. The other day i saw smoke coming out of my engine, so i opened the hood and saw oil coming out through a missing exhaust manifold bolt. I was already leaking air before where the exhaust manifold meets the engine, but now its dripping oil, and you can also see white smoke coming out through the exhaust.
At first I though I had broken the piston rings, but that would mean I would have really low compression and the car would run badly, but its running great.
What could it be, a bad headgasket?

 

[luvmygst]

Don't do it in the car. It's not that much more work to pull the motor, and you will get better results. One reason is that when you hone the cylinders you really need to clean the block to make sure that you get all the dust that it creates out.
I would suggest pulling the motor, strip it to a bare block, check that the bores are within spec, hone the bores so the new rings will seat. When that is done clean the whole block with soap and water.(sounds crazy but I learned it from a friend that builds race motors professionally). Make sure to dry it well and coat with WD-40. Re-assemble with your new pistons, gap each piston ring separate in the bore that they go in. If the crank is in good shape you can just clean it with emery cloth or 2000 grit sandpaper. Get some plasti-gauge and assemble the bottom end with some good tri-metalbearings checking each clearance, as long as you don't use ARP main bolts you should be fine without a line bore.
By pulling the motor it gives you a chance to change the rear-main seal and the oil pump, and just makes it easier. Go back and check the torque on EVERY bolt, then re-assemble the motor and enjoy. Done right you will have a strong reliable motor that will be good for many thousands of miles.
I rebuilt the 7 bolt in my gst like this about 25,000 miles ago. Runs like a new car and has held up to my driving Boost was 10 psi for the first 1000 miles for break in and has been at 17-22 ever since.

Edit. Skip the topline head gasket and go factory or fel-pro like said above, I have had success with both. I used factory+arp on my gst. IF you are on a budget skip the new pistons and find some 2g pistons and have your rods machined to fit.

 

[aero_sallee]

They might contain some lead, but not Nearly as much as 100 octane AVgas. The higher lead means the led will lead to fouling. Especially if you have Factory injectors. You might get away with it on larger injectors, but I'd personally Not risk it.

Not to mention our cats tend to melt under those conditions... assuming you still have it.

I know this is an old post, but I felt like this should be corrected. VP C16, one of the most common leaded race fuels, as well as most race fuels that divulge lead content on this list. Racing Gasoline Comparisons

Contain far more lead than 100LL aviation fuel.

C16 is listed as 6.0gram/gallon of lead
100LL specification says it is required to have 2gram/gallon lead maximum.
www-static.shell.com/static/aus/downloads/aviation/avgas_100ll_pds.pdf