question about turbo setups

[Hesh724]

First off if i was supposed to post this in another forum it wont let me for some resonem, but any way i just got a completely rebuilt 91 tsi talon . i have no idea about turbo setups i am used to v8s but i fell in love with dsm's but it came with small 16g i dont know wether it has external wastegate or nothing yet its still at dudes house but i paid him and its all done i just couldnt get any one to drive me there and folow me home yet. but i am picking it up sat. on a flat bed cause it needs tuned and timed it has stock ecu and injectors its all put together timing isint perfect, it has greddy turbo timer, and thats about all i know. i have heard of cars having fuel air mixture controlers, boost controlers, and dsm link like just to get it drivable do i have to get it on a dyno just to be able to drive it?? he said it just needed tuned and didnt need any other parts but do i need a boost controler what am i missing. like i said stock ecu and injectors and i think maf. please any input will be highly appreciated.

 

[LiquidX]

If you have the stock injectors, you don't need to get it tuned to drive it. Just make sure you are running wastegate pressure. The 16g is an internal gate setup and will have a goldish colored can with a nipple on it off of the compressor housing. That's the wastegate actuator and just hook up some vacuum line from that nipple to a nipple on the compressor cover/j-pipe/IC piping. Until you get larger injectors and a tuning program, do not turn the boost up over 15psi.

The MAF will be part of the intake (big ugly can) and you can upgrade to a 2g MAF (not sure what wiring is involved).

Read the upgrade guide and do all repairs and maintenaince first before YOU start modding. The previous owner didn't know much about the car I'm assuming as they would have done everything in a proper order.

Search on the parts he mentioned and learn about the car and how our setups work.

 

[Hesh724]

ok so. you mentioned the 16 has internal gate as in wastegate i would think? so i guess my main step will be to find a way to adjust the wastegate. So will my steps be get SMIC and piping all tightend up. get engine timed. and ecu will map itself once engine is in normal timing and also should i retard it at all? thanks for the info!! and what will be my guage for what setting to run the waste gate at.

 

[LiquidX]

PLEASE start using correct grammer, I can barely understand what you just posted. What do you mean "adjust the wastegate"? Asking if you should "retard" the timing? No, you don't want retarded timing. You want your base timing advanced 5*

 

[Hesh724]

what i ment was i guess the actuator on the wastegate is like tranny linkage it looks like. it seems you can turn the rod and tighten the nut to keep it in place how will i know when the spring has enough load to prevent fluttering or to tight and not open during boost spike?

 

[LiquidX]

I think now you need to get a picture of the turbo setup including the compressor cover numbers/words. I don't recall the MHI 16g turbos having an adjustable wastegate actuator rod.

 

[Hesh724]

your right, i simply googled a pitcure of a 16g turbo and it happened to have the rod. i cant wait to get it home it has alot done to it. ok so what i have to do is get timing set to make sure there are no leaks in intercooler piping and make sure waste gate is set and it should be good? please say yes and make my spark advance at positive 5 deg.

 

[misphit]

Some aftermarket wastegate actuator rods are adjustable. Not a biggie. Focus on setting the timing properly and ensuring that the motor will operate safely before you go adjusting boost settings and such.

 

[LiquidX]

Here is a good site for you
Visual Frequently Answered Questions - Home Page
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/new...se-troubleshoot-boost-leak-tester-merged.html

Find out what exactly is done with DSM as well. Remember, maintenance and repairs BEFORE mods.

 

[Hesh724]

i just want to run boost at a good daily driver setup. engine was just rebuilt will diffrent pistons will that change any thing. they are 85.5 with the slight bore to fit. all shop done work done on engine its just the intercooler piping is pretty much mock not even tightented down and timing is def a hair off hash marks. but all stock maf ,injectors and ecu. so is this the sort of thing a normal garage can handle like setting timing on it maybe not adjust the turbo i would have someone do that or find what setting to put it less than 15psi. also how do i use the turbo timer?

 

[LiquidX]

Seriously, start using the shift key and keep your posts easy to read.

So new pistons were dropped in, do you know what kind? Are they stock, .020 over or .040 over? How about the rods? Was the crank micropolished and what bearing? A difference will occur depending on what compression ratio pistons you got. Higher CR pistons will need a better tune to prevent knock but are quicker out of boost. Lower CR pistons can run higher boost easier as they have a lower chance to knock.

Also, when it was worked on ask the previous owner if the balance shafts were eliminated (good thing). Call a garage and see if they are willing to do a timing belt change on it. I know some garages don't want anything to do with DSMs however.

The vfaq link I sent has a lot of information for testing parts, fabrication and doing repairs. Timing belt job and balance shaft elimination are under the "engine" link.

 

[Hesh724]

The are Manley pistons. Im not sure wether they are the 8.5:1 or the 9.0:1

Bore size - oversize - Rod Length - Stroke - Comp Distance - Dome Volume - Cylinder head(CC) - Comp ratio - Type - Pstn Wgt.
85.5 - - +.5mm - - 150.00 - - 88 - - 1.375" =- - ( -12 ) -- 47 -- 8.5:1 -- Dish -- 344

the other ones are the same exept dome volume is -8 and the Comp Ratio is 9.0:1
what kind of diffrence is that in overall boost limit would you say with stock stuff like maf, injectors and ECU and Ect. And if they are the higher ones can i prevent knock by keeping it at low boost?

i typed all the stats out nice and spaced and when i post it all squishes together.

 

[LiquidX]

The are Manley pistons. Im not sure wether they are the 8.5:1 or the 9.0:1 but there are only two they make that fit my car. Will there be a signifigant diffrence in tuning between the two. Or will it be a matter of wastegate adjustment since it has a stock ecu and injectors still hopefully it wont need special equipment to tune/time? will i need to find a special place to do this? and can i get it safe enough to drive it like a grandma to a tuner?

The difference would be noticable in high HP/boost applications when tight tuning is needed. You should have an EPROM ECU which has multiple options for tuning directly with the ecu. You can get a chip burned, Jackle + Ostrich, ECMLink. There is also SAFC, GM MAF + MAFT, 98/99 flashable ECU (needs rewiring).

You are fine driving it the way it is, just don't boost more than 15psi which would only happen if you used a MBC. Just hook up a pressure source directly to the wastegate and you can drive.

Start using the search button and read up on as much stuff that you can on the site. It has a plethora of information and most likely anything that you want to ask has already been answered.

Just remember, these are not v8's and are a whole different beast all together. The things you do to the v8's may not apply to our car. Don't forget we are domestic too

 

[Hesh724]

I really did search dsmtalk.com and here and no body had exact answers to my question. Thank you very much for answering all those questions i feel alot better after this. But if you will answer one last question. You said dont take my boost above 15psi does that mean the pressure at which the blow off valve opens which i guess is Manual Boost control? and what is a common pressure sorce people connect their wastgate to?

 

[LiquidX]

I really did search dsmtalk.com and here and no body had exact answers to my question. Thank you very much for answering all those questions i feel alot better after this. But if you will answer one last question. You said dont take my boost above 15psi does that mean the pressure at which the blow off valve opens which i guess is Manual Boost control? and what is a common pressure sorce people connect their wastgate to?

I think you have your terms confused. The BOV will open up after the throttle plate closes and the pressurized air travels back towards the compressor wheel on the turbo. It opens to prevent that air from reaching the turbo and if it does, you get what is called compresser surge. The wastegate is what will control your PSI by allowing exhaust gasses to bypass the turbine. Less gas going past the turbine = less spinning of the turbine = less boost.

The reason why I said don't run more than 15psi is that you will run lean and/or hit fuel cut.

A common source is either off of the compressor housing if you have a nipple on it, the j-pipe if that has one (you can drill and tap a nipple here if you wish), IC pipe before the BOV if you feel like tapping into it. DO NOT tee off of the BOV vacuum line as it will affect the BOV function. Any pressure source will work, but shorter the line the better.

Just a little extra information if you need it.
HowStuffWorks "Turbocharger Design "
HowStuffWorks "Turbocharger Parts"

 

[Hesh724]

I really did mean wastegate but i am still so new to all these words they dont always come out correct. so i wont need a piggy back ecu. it just has a TD05-16g on and will the turbo timer work if i take my key out?

 

[giovanniv]

No you don't NEED a piggyback ecu. You don't need to currently tune anything since you are on stock injectors. So basically you have to run crappy >14-15lbs of boost on the stock injectors or else you will run out of fuel and hit fuel cut (run lean) like stated above. Now when you upgrade your injectors you will need something to tune with like and safc, dsmlink, ecmlink etc or get your ecu chipped by Jeff or Steve (lots of places do it, those are just 2 people that come to mind).

Mainly all your mods depend on what your goals/plans on for the car. With that said, what do you plan on having the car for? Weekend warrior, DD, track car etc.

 

[Hesh724]

I actualy dont want alot of boost yet becuase i am just goin to run this set up till next tax season then i will get hard intercooler piping and a new turbo or grab my buddies off him from his 87 supra was pushin close to 400 hp wrecked it. but i will get injectors and and management stuff along the way. but 15 is fine for me for now good things by waiting and all. i just have to get it on the road cause i already sold my red eclipse but to my step dad so i can still use it if needed.

 

[giovanniv]

Well spend your money wisely! Don't get hard intercooler piping for the stock SMIC because very soon down the road you are gonna upgrade to a FMIC and you will most likely not be able to use the hard smic piping.

 

[Hesh724]

Ya, this is my dream car pretty much i wanted a tsi the day i got my 1.8 eclispe "the red one" but ya i got this car for a steal. so will most garages be able to time the car and then how will i know what setting my wastegate is at?

 

[giovanniv]

Yep basically any place will tune it that has a timing gun. As for the adjustable wastegate, it all depends how much boost you are currently running. I'm pretty sure the adjustable wastegate is like a MBC so the tighter the setting on the wastegate, the more boost you're going to get.

 

[Hesh724]

I assume the boost guage will be my indicator. Oh and if i hit cut out on my injectors i hear i will go lean and detonate and also heard runnning slitghtly rich is the safer way to run. with a stock ecu, injectors, and maf will this be an issue for me if i am running minimal boost? and does lowering boost cause it to run richer since less air is getting forced in? OH and how do i use a turbo timer??? it has but but there are three knobs its a greddy will the car continue to run after i have taken out the key to let the turbo cool? sorry for all the questions but i have very little time to learn alot. but thanks i mean

 

[LiquidX]

Yep basically any place will tune it that has a timing gun. As for the adjustable wastegate, it all depends how much boost you are currently running. I'm pretty sure the adjustable wastegate is like a MBC so the tighter the setting on the wastegate, the more boost you're going to get.

The adjustable wastegate is only to adjust the pressure onto the flapper and the opening distance for it as well. It has no effect on the cracking or opening pressure the the pressure side which is still based off of the inter spring of the wastegate.

I assume the boost guage will be my indicator. Oh and if i hit cut out on my injectors i hear i will go lean and detonate and also heard running slightly rich is the safer way to run. with a stock ecu, injectors, and maf will this be an issue for me if i am running minimal boost? and does lowering boost cause it to run richer since less air is getting forced in? OH and how do i use a turbo timer??? it has but but there are three knobs its a greddy will the car continue to run after i have taken out the key to let the turbo cool? sorry for all the questions but i have very little time to learn alot. but thanks i mean

You will only run lean and hit fuel cut if you try to run too much boost (flow too much air) and the ECU cannot compensate for the extra air. That's where AFCs come into play where they adjust the airflow numbers going to the ECU to trick it by saying less air is coming in. A standalone will have better control of altering the numbers and prevent fuel cut however.

You will knock before detonating unless you really f-up and keep pushing the car way past what you should with what grade fuel you use. Higher grade fuel will allow you to run higher psi with the proper supporting mods.

Lowering boost just changes the amount of extra air is going into the cylinders. All air entering the intake is metered and accounted for. Lowering the boost will NOT harm the engine or cause it to run rich. The ECU will supply the appropriate amount of fuel for the supplied air. This is why boost leaks are bad.

The turbo timer just allows the car to continue to run after the vehicle is shut off. Certain models are hooked up to the ignition and the ebrake so that when the ebrake is release, the car will shut off if still running. I would look up an install diagram online from the manufacturer for the information you will need unless someone else has the file for you.

 

[Hesh724]

I got lucky and he did it already. but ya i feel alot better for sure. thanks for answering all my questions!!! it sounds like once its timed and i get the intercooler piping all buttoned up and make sure the turbo is getting oil, then i guess setting the turbo, then um... what am i forgetting?

 

[LiquidX]

Besides getting all maintenaince done that sounds about it and you can have fun up to 15psi