Putting Nitrous on. Is this safe for a 4g63?????

[Generation X]

I'm more interested in how much can be done SAFELY. Last thing I need to do is buy a new engine...But all this information is helpful...

Well... personally I'm not ever going to go past the 400whp level on stock internals. Using a 16% drivetrain loss figure that's around 475 crank horsepower. I wouldn't care if Joe Shmoe did make 500whp on stock internals. I mean that would be great and everything, but it's not the norm. 400whp is plenty for the street, and should be plenty safe providing the car is in a good state of tune, especially for a daily driver.

 

[knighteclipse1]

Generation X, how much of a problem do you have with traction with the set up you have? With the horsepower way up there I am concerned with that issue.

 

[Generation X]

Generation X, how much of a problem do you have with traction with the set up you have? With the horsepower way up there I am concerned with that issue.

Well... to be honest bro, 1st gear is basically useless without slicks if your into going to the drag strip alot, even with a lsd. I actually start hooking up at about the top of 2nd gear while spraying if I'm taking off from a dead stop.

I've really actually had to re-learn how to modulate the throttle while spraying, as compared to just running the FP big28 and the HKS cams alone, but from a second gear 40mph roll on the car is extremely strong. I put a hurting on a well modded 99 WS6 Trans-am the other day that was making 390whp.

 

[knighteclipse1]

Thats kind of what I figured. I figure maybe just turbo and no spray might be the way I go so I have alittle more lag in the turbo off the line. But thats just what I am considering, I am taking my car to the shop and having HKS cams installed and a few more mods next week, I have alittle more time to research which turbo to go with until then. Thanks for the info bro'

 

[Generation X]

Anytime man!

If it were me I would go with some type of 50 trim variant.

If I had it to do all over again that's what I would go with.

 

[2gGSX]

Just for argument's sake...

This talk of being out of the turbo's efficiency range while spraying is missing a key point--the nitrous has the added advantage of cooling down the intake charge, so wouldn't talk of the turbo's efficiency (in terms of heating up the intake charge too much) be a moot point?

 

[DGajre777]

Just for argument's sake...

This talk of being out of the turbo's efficiency range while spraying is missing a key point--the nitrous has the added advantage of cooling down the intake charge, so wouldn't talk of the turbo's efficiency (in terms of heating up the intake charge too much) be a moot point?

I mentioned nitrous cooling down the intake charge on one of my posts, but it is not the intake temp that makes the turbo go over it's efficieny range, it is the amount of air the turbo flows. When you spray nitrous, the turbo flows more air than it is designed to (even though the intake charge is colder), it still flows more air than it is designed to. This is only on small turbos with nitrous, like T28 + nitrous or EVO3 + nitrous. If you get a FP Green and spray a 75 shot on it, it will still be in it's efficieny range, but at that point the nitrous is not really needed because you could have just turned the boost up.

 

[Generation X]

I mentioned nitrous cooling down the intake charge on one of my posts, but it is not the intake temp that makes the turbo go over it's efficieny range, it is the amount of air the turbo flows. When you spray nitrous, the turbo flows more air than it is designed to (even though the intake charge is colder), it still flows more air than it is designed to. This is only on small turbos with nitrous, like T28 + nitrous or EVO3 + nitrous. If you get a FP Green and spray a 75 shot on it, it will still be in it's efficieny range, but at that point the nitrous is not really needed because you could have just turned the boost up.

That all depends on how much boost your running before spraying. If your having to use race gas to run a certain amount of boost, and your using nitrous on top of that, then more than likely your going to be out of your turbo's efficiency range anyways.

I'm not having to use race gas at my boost levels while I'm spraying a 75 shot, so I'm not out of my B28's efficiency range yet. 22psi is about all that I can run while spraying on pump 93, and that's at 2500ft above sea-level. If I had a FP green, or 50 trim variant type turbo, in which I will have eventually, I would still use nitrous. It would just make me that much more faster.

 

[2gGSX]

Just to clear up the discussion for anyone else reading this (which is probably no one), I think what we can all agree on is that regardless of efficiency numbers, adding a 75 shot to x turbo setup will only serve to make more power. The difference comes in how much actual gain you get from that 75 shot which will depend on a plethora of factors, one of which is the turbo itself.

 

[DGajre777]

Just to clear up the discussion for anyone else reading this (which is probably no one), I think what we can all agree on is that regardless of efficiency numbers, adding a 75 shot to x turbo setup will only serve to make more power. The difference comes in how much actual gain you get from that 75 shot which will depend on a plethora of factors, one of which is the turbo itself.

In a way, yes. It is not how much power (shot) you add that makes a difference, it is how you add nitrous.

As Generation X mentioned and is doing, the proper way (let us call this option A) to add nitrous on a turbo is to push the same amount of psi but using nitrous too. In order words, if the max psi on your turbo is 25 psi, boost it to 20 and use nitrous to push the turbo to 25psi. In the end the turbo still sees 25psi and everything is good. You get more power with the nitrous and turbo at 25psi than you would get with just the turbo at 25psi.

The wrong way (let us call it option B) to do it is to push the same turbo to 25psi with the turbo alone, and then using a shot of nitrous to push the turbo in the 30psi range. At this 30psi point, the turbo is out of its efficiency range and is spinning WAY faster than it was designed to spin. This overspin can cause damage to the turbo.

Option A - turbo will still be in its efficiency range and will not overspin
Option B - turbo will be out of its efficieny range and will overspin, leading to a damaged turbo.

You CANNOT estimate WHP saying, well the EVO III pushes 340WHP max so if I add a 60shot of nitrous, I'll be at 400whp. This would be option B, which will push the turbo out of its efficieny range and overspin the turbo. Unfortunately things with turbo + nitrous don't work out that way.

My argument is this, instead of getting a T28 and adding a 75 shot (no offence Generation X) or getting a EVO III 16G and adding a 50 shot, why not go with a hybrid/50trim type turbo?

I hope this helped and I didn't confuse any one.

 

[Generation X]

In a way, yes. It is not how much power (shot) you add that makes a difference, it is how you add nitrous.

As Generation X mentioned and is doing, the proper way (let us call this option A) to add nitrous on a turbo is to push the same amount of psi but using nitrous too. In order words, if the max psi on your turbo is 25 psi, boost it to 20 and use nitrous to push the turbo to 25psi. In the end the turbo still sees 25psi and everything is good. You get more power with the nitrous and turbo at 25psi than you would get with just the turbo at 25psi.

The wrong way (let us call it option B) to do it is to push the same turbo to 25psi with the turbo alone, and then using a shot of nitrous to push the turbo in the 30psi range. At this 30psi point, the turbo is out of its efficiency range and is spinning WAY faster than it was designed to spin. This overspin can cause damage to the turbo.

Option A - turbo will still be in its efficiency range and will not overspin
Option B - turbo will be out of its efficieny range and will overspin, leading to a damaged turbo.

You CANNOT estimate WHP saying, well the EVO III pushes 340WHP max so if I add a 60shot of nitrous, I'll be at 400whp. This would be option B, which will push the turbo out of its efficieny range and overspin the turbo. Unfortunately things with turbo + nitrous don't work out that way.

My argument is this, instead of getting a T28 and adding a 75 shot (no offence Generation X) or getting a EVO III 16G and adding a 50 shot, why not go with a hybrid/50trim type turbo?

I hope this helped and I didn't confuse any one.

Agreed! Yeah dude, I plan on going to a 50 trim and nitrous eventually. I would have already if it weren't for the damn 2nd gear blowing out on my stock 03 WRX. It's put me in the hole for the time being.

 

[97gstnick]

On a STOCK CAR:

. Running nitrous on a 16G will make the turbo spin like crazy and eventually cause damage to the turbo, depending on the amount of boost you are running.

there is a guy who runs a 125+ shot on a t-25. he also runs low 11s on a gs-t. im not sure if he goes through turbos all the time, but was wondering about the accuracy of your statement? like what are the general guidelines with nitrous and a certain size turbine housing?

 

[DGajre777]

there is a guy who runs a 125+ shot on a t-25. he also runs low 11s on a gs-t. im not sure if he goes through turbos all the time, but was wondering about the accuracy of your statement? like what are the general guidelines with nitrous and a certain size turbine housing?

A 125+ shot on a T25? WTF You do know that about 16 psi the T25 becomes inefficient and blows nothing but hot air right? If he was running a 125+ shot on a T28, It would be more believable.

About the accuracy of my statement, it is quite simple. Using nitrous increases airflow in the turbine housing, cause the turbo to spin way above it's terminal velocity. This damages a turbo. Ask any turbo shop what they think about you using a small turbo and putting a big shot and nitrous on it, and they'll recommend that you get a bigger turbo.

As for guidelines with nitrous and turbine housing, I'd say:
On a T25, no more than a 50 shot.
On a T28 or 16G, no more than a 75 shot.

 

[Generation X]

A 125+ shot on a T25? WTF You do know that about 16 psi the T25 becomes inefficient and blows nothing but hot air right? If he was running a 125+ shot on a T28, It would be more believable.

About the accuracy of my statement, it is quite simple. Using nitrous increases airflow in the turbine housing, cause the turbo to spin way above it's terminal velocity. This damages a turbo. Ask any turbo shop what they think about you using a small turbo and putting a big shot and nitrous on it, and they'll recommend that you get a bigger turbo.

As for guidelines with nitrous and turbine housing, I'd say:
On a T25, no more than a 50 shot.
On a T28 or 16G, no more than a 75 shot.

I think I know who he is referring to with the T25 + 125 shot, and I believe it is a track only car. I would bet that he does go through T-25's like I go through cold beer. Especially running a 125 shot!!

 

[97gstnick]

yes i mean a t-25 as in 2g stock turbo! he also has full stock fuel setup.

 

[DGajre777]

there is a guy who runs a 125+ shot on a t-25. he also runs low 11s on a gs-t.

yes i mean a t-25 as in 2g stock turbo! he also has full stock fuel setup.

Wait a second... 2G, T25, stock fuel system, 125 shot and he's running low 11s?

 

[Generation X]

I think he's talking about this guy right here.

He's got a nice built motor though.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/member.php?&do=vehicledetails&userid=34436

 

[DGajre777]

I think he's talking about this guy right here.

He's got a nice built motor though.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/member.php?&do=vehicledetails&userid=34436

Yeah, I think it is that guy too. But it is not a street car, it's a drag car with no interior.

But on one of his pics, note the description - "Looks like a t25 what do you think. Has a external dump and exhaust that comes out the driver side front bumper".

I found an entire thread about this guy - http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157957.

Aparently this is how he does it:

Have you destroyed a T25 yet?

The tiny bearings in those things can't take much shaft RPM, and it must be getting the crap spun out of it when that extra 100 shot hits.

Of course, with that much exhaust pressure, I bet that the wastegate is getting blown wide open, anyway.

No, believe it or not, that turbo has over 50K miles and has seen over 600 passes on the bottle. The turbo still has no shaft play and spools up perfectly(up to 10 lbs). External dump helps keep the pressure off the turbo. Since I shift at 6400 RPM's, the turbo doesn't see that high of Rev's. If anyone has any other questions please let me know.

And finally on post 83:

i could pm you his business #.
he stop comming around because nobody believes him. he try posting his time on dsmtimes.org and they din't wanna posted his time. he gave them videos,pics,dyno runs , pics of car, pretty much anything to prove his car. but they still ignored him. yes very cool guy.

 

[Generation X]

Yeah, I think it is that guy too. But it is not a street car, it's a drag car with no interior.

But on one of his pics, note the description - "Looks like a t25 what do you think. Has a external dump and exhaust that comes out the driver side front bumper".

I found an entire thread about this guy - http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157957.

Aparently this is how he does it:



And finally on post 83:

Agreed! It's definitley no street car, or any type of car that I would want to drive on the street. Personally I like my ac to much, as with my electric windows, and stereo.

Anyways... I noticed his exhaust set up, it is different for sure, and it still blows my mind that the T25 is taking the abuse like that. That gives me a little more hope on preserving my FP B28.

Maybe I need to get an external dump then, but I really don't ever shift pass 6700 rpm either.

 

[-DSM2NR-]

Does anybody have pics of their nitrous setup on a 4g63?

 

[Slippi84]

I'm gonna try and run a 35-50 shot with gt14 @ 20psi range aiming for 500whp on a stock 6 bolt with arp bolts. Good times

 

[Generation X]

Does anybody have pics of their nitrous setup on a 4g63?

I may have some pics in my gallery, not to sure though.

 

[-DSM2NR-]

those pics are too small to see anything

 

[Generation X]

those pics are too small to see anything

Yeah I figured if I had some in my gallery they might not be big enough, sorry!

What kind of pic are you trying to see?

I might be able to take a closer shot if I knew exactly what your trying to see.

 

[-DSM2NR-]

I want to see where exactly the nitrous line should be tapped. Which intercooler pipe it's supposed to enter.