PTE 50 Trim, overkill?

[Kevin Jewer]

Just a couple points. Trying to get a reliable repeatable 12 second pump gas car on a 16g is not the easiest thing for the average person to do. Can the turbo do it? Yes. Would I want to? No. About injectors. Sure, poeple can run 9s on 250s or whatever the latest rumor is. But thats on race gas and lean as hell. On pump gas at high boost/airflow however you need a lot more injector than most poeple think. I've maxed out 850s on pump gas in the past. All depends on airflow per rev and target AFR. For some random datapoints, I ran 12.4s on pump gas and a sidemount with a SBR M50, then with a FMIC I ran some 12.1s-12.2s IIRC on the SBR TDO6H 20g. Damn near broke into the 11s on a SBR TDO6H 56 trim, but clutch issues hosed my ETs (12.0x). MPH was 117, more than enough for 11s. On a smaller 60-1 stage 3/.82, I trapped 119, but again couldnt ET worth a shyte. There is certainly more power available with these turbos on pump gas, but finding that power is tougher than it is with race gas. And you have to be careful

The moral of the story is that pump gas power is all about heat. Compressor efficiency plays a part in it, but intercooling efficiency is much more important. To use the extreme example to illustrate the point, with 100% efficient intercooling, compressor efficiency would be irrelevant. Choose a turbo that flows enough air for your goals, plus some head room. Then focus on intercooling, adequate fuel supply, and then tuning it. And any mods that allow more airflow without raising boost (heat) really help on pump gas (cams, bigger turbine AR/wheel, manifold, stroker, etc).

 

[SlowboyCSE]

Then focus on intercooling, adequate fuel supply, and then tuning it. And any mods that allow more airflow without raising boost (heat) really help on pump gas (cams, bigger turbine AR/wheel, manifold, stroker, etc).

YEAH YEAH YEAH!

 

[pneumo]

I just wanted to add another data point to this thread. I managed to run 12.8 at 105.7 mph on a big 16g, alamo sidemount IC, outside air temps was 105, and 91 octane. My Denso 720's were at 85% duty cycle. If I had 660's I would've had to raise the fuel pressure to get enough fuel. 550's wouldn't cut it at all.

Using race gas is a different story. Plenty of DSM's have gone into the 11's on 550's.

 

[lowridin2g]

to the original poster, go with the 50 trim. i now have a big16g and i was running high 12's all day long on it on 117 octane. i want a car that will pull some nice low 12 sec passes on 93 pump gas. i have 650 injectors, 255 lph pump, an afpr, 24 row fmic, hks 272'272's, hell i even have a 3 inch extreme turbo intake pipe made for 3 inch inlet turrbo's. my next move is def a bigger turbo. right now im undecided on a 50 trim, 20g or an fp green. i do want to stay with an internally gated turbo though as money permits for me to go external. im also saving for a 6 bolt, then to build the 6 bolt. so really im undecided which direction to go in.

 

[2gGSX]

right now im undecided on a 50 trim, 20g or an fp green.

FP Green is a 50 trim. Also consider bullseye's T04B v-trim, good turbo with the price (even after the extra charges for internal gate and 12 month warranty )

 

[heavyD]

FP Green is a 50 trim. Also consider bullseye's T04B v-trim, good turbo with the price (even after the extra charges for internal gate and 12 month warranty )

Does anyone know why the FPGreen costs so much compared to an AGP RS49 50 trim? That monster thrust bearing can't be worth $300.00. I know that lots of guys have put in some great timeslips with it and I have had great dealings with FP but I just can't justify paying the extra $. Now that my fully built engine is purring smooth, I've been researching for a turbo upgrade from my FPT28 to something larger and right now all signs point to AGP RS49.

 

[14.5 drift]

mmmmm fp3052.......and I'm spent...

 

[Kevin Jewer]

More often than not a large portion of the purchase price is paying or the name, not the value of the parts alone.

 

[guitarXgeek]

And people will/do pay the extra money because of the feeling of security when buying a product from a well known/reputable company. Of course the companies know this, so they choose to make a little bit of profit from it

 

[14.5 drift]

what are they asking for it? 12xx hundred some thing is not bad for a full ball bearing turbo with a custom cast surgical steel housing, only a few bucks more than a 20g.

 

[pnklmnd]

i have a question with the wastegate options...if you were toget an external wastgate how hard would it be to make it fiton the exhaust manifold???any links to it???i would want to go external...

 

[PieTSI]

I still don't understand why people are saying that low 12's can not be accomplished with a 16g on pump gas. I have a s16g and run nothing but 93 octane. I hit 12.6@108 with a stock intake manifold/head/ and FULL WEIGHT! I realize this isn't low 12's but I daily drive my car to school and I'm a broke ass college student. I don't see why someone with a little more money or time couldn't do it?

 

[yo2001]

ditto. 16G prolly can go low 12's around 22psi or so.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Its easy to weld a tial 38mm flange on a stock manifold, IIRC, SBR does it for less than a hundred bucks. The gate is 2 something. Worth every penny. I prefer venting all runners, but thats more complciated. For most people the number 1 runner will suffice. In order of preferece for me: external on all runers, external on O2 housing (still all runers), external on runner 1, internal.

 

[zross1]

I still don't understand why people are saying that low 12's can not be accomplished with a 16g on pump gas. I have a s16g and run nothing but 93 octane. I hit 12.6@108 with a stock intake manifold/head/ and FULL WEIGHT! I realize this isn't low 12's but I daily drive my car to school and I'm a broke ass college student. I don't see why someone with a little more money or time couldn't do it?

The guy with the original post wanted two things.
1. low 12 sec passes
2. 350 whp
And all this on pump gas/ full weight. You said you ran 12.6 with full weight and 93 octane correct? Like you said this isn't low 12's. A half second is a big deal when your talking 12.6 to a 12 flat. And out of the hundreds of people who have read this thread there has been one that has claimed a low 12 sec pass with the criteria mentioned above and that was slowboy. This being said, I already stated that there are probably a few people who have ran low 12's on a 16G, again full weight and on pump. But how many? Very few and how many were they able to back it up time and time again? If there were more then a few I gaurantee they would of posted it and I would shut up about that aspect of the post. Now you go to #2. 350whp--this was already beaten into the ground and I'm sure you've read the posts that show this isn't feisable to do without building your engine with a 16G. Now the two turbos that he wanted to know about were a 16G and a 50 trim. We all know that a 50 trim can pull these numbers with ease. You simply can't with a 16G.
The whole point of the post was to figure out which turbo was the best fit for what he wanted and it's obvious that in this case it's the 50 trim.

 

[PieTSI]

.
The whole point of the post was to figure out which turbo was the best fit for what he wanted and it's obvious that in this case it's the 50 trim.

Correct.

As for the rest of the statement. Again I am a commuting college student and still have the stock intake manifold/head/cams/suspension and shitty tires. I don't have a ton of money to spend on mods, and someone with more money/time than I have should run better times. With better rubber alone I could take my 60' from a 1.85 to a 1.70. Also I am saying it is very possible but would take more tuning than the bigger turbo. But with the bigger turbo comes more supporting modifications and also more lag.

 

[pneumo]

If you have enough supporting mods to get about 350 whp out of a 16G, then you could easily get more power out of a 50 trim with the same supporting mods.

I know there are plenty of threads arguing why bigger turbos won't make more power at the same boost, but this case is different. A 16g pushed up to 350 whp is maxing out it's capacity. To max out a turbo means it's running where the compressor efficiency and turbine efficiency are very poor. It can be done, but the turbo will be the limitation to making more power. Getting about 350 whp out of a 50 trim only uses about 70% of it's capacity. If you run a 50 trim at about 70% you will be in the sweet spot of it's compressor and turbine flow maps.

I guess the next question is, do you have enough supporting mods for 350 whp? With a typical bolton 50 trim costing about $900, and the typical 16G costing $550, you could save $450 by going with the 16G and use that money for more supporting mods. Which path gets you the most power per dollar?

 

[zross1]

If you have enough supporting mods to get about 350 whp out of a 16G, then you could easily get more power out of a 50 trim with the same supporting mods.

I know there are plenty of threads arguing why bigger turbos won't make more power at the same boost, but this case is different. A 16g pushed up to 350 whp is maxing out it's capacity. To max out a turbo means it's running where the compressor efficiency and turbine efficiency are very poor. It can be done, but the turbo will be the limitation to making more power. Getting about 350 whp out of a 50 trim only uses about 70% of it's capacity. If you run a 50 trim at about 70% you will be in the sweet spot of it's compressor and turbine flow maps.

I guess the next question is, do you have enough supporting mods for 350 whp? With a typical bolton 50 trim costing about $900, and the typical 16G costing $550, you could save $450 by going with the 16G and use that money for more supporting mods. Which path gets you the most power per dollar?

Yup He did say he would have all the supporting mods.

 

[yo2001]

I was right at 300 mark at 19psi on a dynopack.

350WHP is hard on pump gas with a 16G but Slowboy's car did make 350WHP on EVOIII16G. So it is possible.

 

[zross1]

Correct.

As for the rest of the statement. Again I am a commuting college student and still have the stock intake manifold/head/cams/suspension and shitty tires. I don't have a ton of money to spend on mods, and someone with more money/time than I have should run better times. With better rubber alone I could take my 60' from a 1.85 to a 1.70. Also I am saying it is very possible but would take more tuning than the bigger turbo. But with the bigger turbo comes more supporting modifications and also more lag.

I know you said that you have the stock intake, manifold, head, .....I do hope though if you start upgrading these things you'll get a bigger turbo then a 16G that can be utalized to push the air these restrictions hold back. If you do these mods you could of just as easy slapped on a 50 trim that would still give you more power/and potential then a 16g with cams and port work ever would. Depending on where you draw the line on what a "stock" motor is I would say cam upgrades falls under the category of a "not a stock motor". Port work on the head is definitly not a "stock" motor. So no one is arguing that a built, or motor with internal work done w/a 16g can pull these times and or 350 whp. This has already been discussed. I really don't think tires, suspension helps that much on a awd if your goal is 1.7's in the 60 ft (IMO). I have stock suspension and snow tires that are 3 years old and I can pull mid 1.7 60 ft times and I'm not that great at launching. If you plan on getting crazy 60 ft times I'm sure tires and suspension might come into play a little. But I tell you what, as soon as you pull a low 12 sec pass you'll be one of the few that can actually pull it off on a 16g full weight on pump and stock motor. Let us know when you do. And if you do let us know when you can back it up time and time again. Also if you know anyone else that has besides slow boy let us know as well. You can always speculate on what you could/couldn't run, but unless you run it--it's irrelevent. You saying that you can run low 12's if you do the upgrades you mentioned is like me saying that when you ran your 12.6 that it was the run of your life on that set up and you won't do it again. Both statements hold no merritt because it's all speculation.

 

[zross1]

I was right at 300 mark at 19psi on a dynopack.

350WHP is hard on pump gas with a 16G but Slowboy's car did make 350WHP on EVOIII16G. So it is possible.

Again this was on a built motor, and he even stated that he would not reccomend this on a stock motor.

 

[14.5 drift]

slowboys car was also stroked with high compression

 

[zross1]

I don't doubt this--but not many if any with a stock head.

 

[gvr4in]

FP Green is a 50 trim. Also consider bullseye's T04B v-trim, good turbo with the price (even after the extra charges for internal gate and 12 month warranty )

An fp green is a different kind of 50 trim in comparison to the PTE50. The green has a TO4E comp wheel, and a TDO6H turbine wheel, is ball bearing and either water or oil cooled. Like someone already said the PTE50 is non ball bearing.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I don't doubt this--but not many if any with a stock head.

Why would you need anything but a stock head? With what a 16g flows porting wont do much except let you max the turbo at a lower boost pressure. Stock hardware is good to well over what my friend and I were shifting at anyway, and I think that goes for most 16g owners shifting at 7500 or so.