plz help me decide if i should upgrade my rs or just buy a gsx or gst

[Initial DSM]

DMSNightmare: "Siueclipse never TOLD you this....RSTwnnabe, I am your Father!"

RSTwnnabe: "NOO!! youre lying! whaaaah!"

DSMNightmare: " Search your feelings! You know it to be true!"

RSTwnnabe : "Noo!...sob"

DSMNightmare: "Join ME...and together we shall rule the DSM's as father and son!"

RSTwnnabe: *falls*

 

[Kirby]

Originally posted by RSTwnnabe
RSTsoon, the only reason I am staying away from building my RS now, is that yeh you can spend 3 grand on a howell rebuild kit, which is waht i was going to do, but even then u have your block. those blocks arent meant for forced induction, so u can have new internals, but the block will still be used. As for only spending for grand for a turbo and rebuild, yeh its a good deal, but im starting to see that only spending like 2 extra ganrd and buying a GST is more cost effective, yes the car may be stock, but its already fast, your starrting out wit ha car with 210 horses, as opposed to 140 ...while i have the money to rebuild te RS, i think that building a non toubo car for somethign its not, is very expensive, and u cant be as fast, as cheap or easy. And yeh im wiling to drive for the GSt, the only other thing im concerend about is insurance rates well ill keep you guys posted, if anyone else has any input itd be great. Oh yeh! i found a GSt here (white one with lots of "FAST AND FURIOUS " sitckers ) but it is 6500 bucks!, the downside is that it has 120K on it, i heard that the turbo (t-25) isnt reliable after that, and that it is about shot....any help?
Dave

A block is a hunk of metal. It does not get made for turbo or non turbo, it gets made for bore and stroke. The pistons and rods are what can't take HIGH boost not the block. Nobody buys a new block when they rebuild a motor, unless they have ruined theirs. The block can not go wrong, it's just a case for the internals to sit in. What I will say is this, A rebuilt 420a with forged internals will hold more HP and boost than the stock 4g63 block, and be more reliable doing so.This is not to knock the 4g63 at all, they are forged internals they are supposed to be strong. The 4g63 has the same displacement as the 420a, so it makes the same power at the same compression. When you rebuild a 420a you surpass the stock 4g63 in every way, and it's supposed to be that way. Then if you rebuild the 4g63 with forged internals then you are even again, with the only possible advantage being that the 4g63 crank may be more heavy duty, however it is also known to walk in SOME instances. Basicly they are the same motor just different. Also once you rebuild the 420a you are WAY above 210 HP so buying the GSX would be a step backwards in that respect. This is why I told you to do all the math, some people it makes sence for others it does not. I couldn't care less what motor you end up with, just don't bach my motor and we will be cool. Neither motor is better or worse, it's all in the equipment that is inside it. The only thing that makes the 4g63 "better" is that the internals are made to take more abuse, like from the turbo, but that is only in stock form. Nightmare, I thank you for seeing my points, we all get a little opinionated when it comes to who's block is better, and for good reason. I think we are starting to realize that neither is better or worse, they are just different. There both good kids they just have to be raised in a different way if you will. Why should I be a wiseman? 98turbo420a dissapear...... It shouldn't matter if I have wiseman above my name, if i'm giving good advice and people trust it that's all that matters. I would like to be a wiseman, but not if I have to act like "wisemen" of the past. I don't know everything, but I know a good bit. So to sum it all up here, you have to keep doing the math. You can buy a 2.2L stroker with forged internals for 2600 and a top end gasket set for 100-150, or just the HG for 35-40 and just drop in the block. Then you have .2 extra L of displacement and a stronger more reliable platform than the stock 4g63. There is no risk of crank walk (although it is a small risk with the 4g63), and you have stronger internals than the 4g63. The 2 blocks are made from the same metal, so there is no difference in the blocks. (iron I believe) Keep doing the math and then find out what you want to do, and don't forget to factor insurance in to because you are 17 Years old, so the turbo car will prolly be more.

 

[DSMNightmare]

I keep forgetting that he is 17 years old. It's been so long since I have had to pay insurance like that. At 17 they will stick you on the insurance even if you have a GS, but not near as bad. So yeah the 420a would be a good way around that.

 

[Kirby]

Also nightmare I wanted to let you know my EIC is at my house, so hopefully baring any other issues I will know how my car feels at 18psi within the next week or 2. I will report on it fully. It will prolly be a while before I can get to a dyno or a track as I have a pesky oil leak, but I will keep you posted on that as well. I know we have differing opinions on some things, but I realy don't think either motor is "better" per say.

 

[DSMNightmare]

True, and we both have the same goal, to be fast. We turned the boost up the other day on my wifes Tsi just to see what it would do and it was badass . This car will lay rubber from a 30mph roll. Which for you 5speed guys thats no big deal but this is a A/T We took it to the track but the EGTs were under 1400 degrees and only got one run in. So now we need to tune the fuel so we can get more out of it. Her car runs so rich it is not even funny. We were going to tune it and go back tonight but we blew the Cam angle sensor on my way to work this morning. No biggie though, 50 dollar part. The labor is a bi*** but thats it. As soon as we getting back up I think we are going to make a couple of changes to the layout. Even for running pig rich and her never running at the track EVER she still managed a 9.3 1/8th and a 14.1 1/4 mile. The funny part is that she did this with a 2.43 60ft and a 101.6 trap speed Her trap is faster than mine when I ran 13.8 in that same car I told her if she gets the 60ft down to 2.1 and the fuel leaned out a lot she will be in the low 13s high 12s easy.

Yeah so if you go with a 4G63 RST, then try and get one where the CAS is on the outside of the cames instead of under the cam gear. That is usually a 97-99 4G63 OR even better is the 90-94 4G63(1G). I'm not sure about where it is on the 420a.

 

[RSTwnnabe]

First of all, iwasnt bashing anyones motor, i am farily new at all this, so i just need to know WHICH decision is guna be the best to make. I just heard that yes the blcoks are the same, but eh yare DESIGNED DIFFERNTLY, and htat the 420A isnt designed to have a turbo! so thats all my question is, and waht baout my tranny? and clutch? are they meant to handel all that hp or a turbo engine?
thanks
DAve

 

[Initial DSM]

Q:"i just need to know WHICH decision is guna be the best to make."

A: 420A RS

Q: "waht baout my tranny? and clutch? are they meant to handel all that hp or a turbo engine?"

A: Tranny's fine. you can get an lsd cheap at www.newskoolracing.com for better traction, and depending on how much more hp youre reaching for, an upgraded clutch is neccesary, but so is on a gst if you upgrade the engine as well.

 

[RSTsoon]

Originally posted by Initial DSM
Q:"i just need to know WHICH decision is guna be the best to make."

A: 420A RS

Q: "waht baout my tranny? and clutch? are they meant to handel all that hp or a turbo engine?"

A: Tranny's fine. you can get an lsd cheap at www.newskoolracing.com for better traction, and depending on how much more hp youre reaching for, an upgraded clutch is neccesary, but so is on a gst if you upgrade the engine as well.

Thats site has SID's, do they act like LSD? Never heard fo SID's before.

 

[RSTwnnabe]

I guess you guys arent understanding, i dont want to have to mess with all this stuff right now, i am finishing up school, i dont havetime to be tuning and replkacing trannys and stuff, i want a RELIAABLE DAILY DRIVER, that just happens to be fast. My whole delmma in this situation is wether to keep my rs or jsut sell it for a gst
DAve

 

[siueclipse]

yeah mike, i did have the hood off and the piping aiming up.. but big deal.. the car still ran it..

i bet ill run the same time if i just put a cold air extension on it..

hehe

i still say turbo the RS..

James

 

[DSMNightmare]

Originally posted by siueclipse
yeah mike, i did have the hood off and the piping aiming up.. but big deal.. the car still ran it..

i bet ill run the same time if i just put a cold air extension on it..

hehe

i still say turbo the RS..

James

The point is.... It did not run that time without pulling your seat, sub box and hood. Gateway wont allow you to pull the hood, nor will any NHRA competition. The only time that counts is the 9.3 that you ran without gutting the car.

I ran 8.9 with the full interior no wieght shaving at all. In fact I added a leather power interior and did that run with a full tank of gas. That was with a Automatic FWD 4G63 with the stock bottom end, stock head, and I did that exact same time on my 16G and stock tranny when I had it.

Like Kirby said, both cars have very good potential. Since the kid was asking for my opinion and thats it I'm sure he does not give a shit what I did to my car, what times I have, or what I did to get there.

I think Kirby established a good point. You might be better going for a star kit if your only 17 and you are worried about high insurance. Don't go with the 16G Hahn Kit though because MOST the times I have seen with the stock bottom end suck balls. Even with the build up I have not seen that many impressive times. I'm lucky I have all the advantages that allow me the low insurance so I have gone AWD. When I get better times than 9s I'll prolly post them up here.

 

[DSMNightmare]

Originally posted by RSTwnnabe
I guess you guys arent understanding, i dont want to have to mess with all this stuff right now, i am finishing up school, i dont havetime to be tuning and replkacing trannys and stuff, i want a RELIAABLE DAILY DRIVER, that just happens to be fast. My whole delmma in this situation is wether to keep my rs or jsut sell it for a gst
DAve

Like I said if you want a car that is alreay pretty quick and takes minimal mods to get you into the 13s then go with the 4G63. GSTs are a dime a dozen. While I'm sure a 420a can be made fast and I think Kirby is working on being the first on this board to get 12s I think that you will be in for more work than you want if you go with a 420a. I'll try and dig some more up for ya on autotrader. Honestly if you want to hear something funny there was a kid last year at Benton that was running 9.5s all day long running nothing more than a 75 shot in his RS. Don't know how wise it was but he was doing all day long.

Long story short, if you don't want to work on the car then get a GST.

 

[Initial DSM]

Crap, forgot about nitrous. Yeah a 75 shot wouldnt be too expensive and the stock internals of a 420a can go 100hp over stock so it should be fine.

When I mentioned the LSD, that was just so you can get better traction if the car has more mods on it. You dont really have to have it. But in a GST, you'll have the same traction issues anyway.

go to www.gottude.com or hit up Motofool if youre not gonna get a Hahn kit like DSMNightmare suggested. He has custom turbo kits that are cheaper and designed better than those, and he's very knowledgable in the field which is a plus. Turboing the car and being close to James would help you learn more about the car in the long run too. Besides, once you rebuild the RS and turbo it (correctly), you wont really have daily driver issues because it'll basically be like a brand new car that you built, as opposed to buying a used car with +100k miles where you dont really know exactly what youre getting.

 

[siueclipse]

big deal about what i did then mike.. im going to do better..

hey kirby, wanna start a race to see who gets into the 12s first? heheh

turbo the rs

 

[BakerGSX]

Originally posted by siueclipse
big deal about what i did then mike.. im going to do better..

hey kirby, wanna start a race to see who gets into the 12s first? heheh

turbo the rs

I think his point was that it's lame to quote the time you ran with the hood off as your best time. I'm sure everyone here will do better including you, him, and anyone else. Point is the thread is not about you is it?

RSTwannabe, I can say from owning both cars that the 4G63 is they way you should go if you don't want to touch the bottom end. I don't agree with DSMNightmare about it though. I think if your going 4G63 you should go AWD and be done with it. You should not have to worry about stuff breaking until your laying down serious horsepower. FWD sucks when you are trying to get traction for a good launch. What's the point of trying to go fast if you have to use special tires to get better traction. Granted the 420a and 4G63 FWD cars both have potential, but if your going to do it then why not do it right? If SIU is such a 420a fan then why was he bidding a few weeks ago on a 1G AWD?

:

 

[DSMNightmare]

Originally posted by siueclipse
big deal about what i did then mike.. im going to do better..

hey kirby, wanna start a race to see who gets into the 12s first? heheh

turbo the rs

Gotta run the 1/4 mile first , J/K

Seriously you need to get to gateway and get some runs in. Tuning for the 1/8th mile and 1/4 mile are totally different.

 

[DSMNightmare]

Originally posted by BakerGSX


I think his point was that it's lame to quote the time you ran with the hood off as your best time. I'm sure everyone here will do better including you, him, and anyone else. Point is the thread is not about you is it?

RSTwannabe, I can say from owning both cars that the 4G63 is they way you should go if you don't want to touch the bottom end. I don't agree with DSMNightmare about it though. I think if your going 4G63 you should go AWD and be done with it. You should not have to worry about stuff breaking until your laying down serious horsepower. FWD sucks when you are trying to get traction for a good launch. What's the point of trying to go fast if you have to use special tires to get better traction. Granted the 420a and 4G63 FWD cars both have potential, but if your going to do it then why not do it right? If SIU is such a 420a fan then why was he bidding a few weeks ago on a 1G AWD?

:

I didn't say the GS-T was my first pick, I just said that if he was going to pay higher insurance that the GS-T was the way to go. I agree the AWD is the better choice but not eveyone can afford the money and the insurance. I didn't do too bad on traction with the FWD, I have pulled 2.0 60ft(rarely) with my Yoks that are on the car now and those are 320 treadware tires.

 

[siueclipse]

hey baker.. you can suck a nut man. damn youre a fool.

turbo the RS

 

[BakerGSX]

Originally posted by siueclipse
hey baker.. you can suck a nut man. damn youre a fool.

turbo the RS

, that's the best you got? Your funny siueclipse. You call me a fool but your the only 420a w/turbo on this board who runs a 14 second 10K+ car. I think the only fool would be someone who would let you and your mechanic touch thier car. Seriously I think you have a stake in this because your shop gets the money if this kid buys a turbo kit and has them put it in. There you go with the homoerotic fantasies about me again. I told you already man I'm taken. also are you working on closing another thread down. It seems like anymore you can't post without the thread being killed.

Like I said heres what you do.

1. Worried about insurance.... Go STAR 420a buildup.
2. Worried less about insurance but want a car you don't have to mod a lot, get a GST
3. Money is no object, go GSX and in my opinion do it right the first time because if siueclipse is the poster boy for a 420a buildup then a 14 second car is hardly convincing now is it?

 

[BakerGSX]

Finally you have not explained if your such a 420a supporter then why were you trying to buy a 1G AWD on ebay??? Just curious.

 

[RSTwnnabe]

Guys first off i didnt wanna start a freakin war here, were all DSM fans! it seems like were in a Domestic VS. Import chat room! i can see both sides of this, yes turboing the 420A is a cool thing, that usualy isnt done, but for me, i dont have a local shop that will tune it for me, eveytime i have a problem, ill have to drive to Carbondale. and YES u can rebuild the car, and have NEW stock internals, but also, the blcok will stil hae 100k on it, and so will everyhing else. I am just going to get the GSt, and insurance doesnt worry me, because as my insurance told me., my rates wont go up till i get a ticket, or in an accident. now later on yeh i plan on building the GST up, but for now, i figure why spend all that money on turboing my RS , when i can spend an extra grand and get a GST, see im geting this gst for 6500, with a full exhaust. so its a prety good ddeal. iu sjut dont think i want to spend all that money, to only run slightly faster than a stock GST. I drove the car today, and theres nothign leaking, no smell f oil, the clutch is great, it shifts smoothly, and it is in awesome condition. its been takien care of, and i know that for a fact, because my freinds know the guy. so i thought it was a good ddeal, not that building a car (my rs) woudnt be coolk, but right now, i need to concentrate on school and shit, not fixign a car up everynight. thats my only reason for not taking another route out, and not keeping my car. liek i said before, cmon guys ddont fight baout it, were supsot to help eachoter out here , we all got love for the DSMs, so why fight baout stupid shit?keep it real fellas
DAve

 

[RSTwnnabe]

and i dont know about you guys, btuthe only reason im not getting a GSX, is c i cant find any! and whe ni do they are around 10k, and like i said, this GST is only 6500!!! good deal right? oh thres one more thing, its a 97, with higer miles.....soo...should i be worried about CRAN****K?
i wasnt sure ...ive heard that if it was guna happen it woudla happend by now? thanks guys
DAve

 

[Initial DSM]

95 gsx 143k miles

97 gst 137k miles

95 gsx 102k miles

95 gsx with new turbo 103k miles

96 gst with 6 bolt motor

 

[Initial DSM]

95 gsx

95 gst

95 gsx with 6 bolt motor

11 sec 1g (hey now...)

95 tallon tsi in (Bourbannais? IL) modded

95 gsx with 16g turbo

11 sec 6 bolt Mirage (..I like it)


95 talon tsi with PS2

and none of these cars are over $7500.

 

[Kirby]

Originally posted by RSTwnnabe
First of all, iwasnt bashing anyones motor, i am farily new at all this, so i just need to know WHICH decision is guna be the best to make. I just heard that yes the blcoks are the same, but eh yare DESIGNED DIFFERNTLY, and htat the 420A isnt designed to have a turbo! so thats all my question is, and waht baout my tranny? and clutch? are they meant to handel all that hp or a turbo engine?
thanks
DAve

No no, I was not saying you were bashing my motor at all. It is your motor too after all. I was just saying that in general because there is a lot of 420a bashing that goes on in here. I did not mean you personally. Furthermore you did not start this war. This is just another battle in the war. I think that slowley both sides are starting to come together. We shall see in the future. also if you notice I did not chime in on this topic for a little bit (post 14 acctually) So I was just responding to hostility twards my 420a. Fact of the mater is I want you to do what is right for you! But you have to have a CORRECT picture of both sides to make the right decision. I meerly tried to give that correct vision to you, so you could make a decision. I see that you have chosen the 4g63, congradulations my firend you have made a good choice. Both ways will reward you, it's just a mater of how the math works out for you.
Also the fact that a car will be turbo or non turbo is not a factor in creating a BLOCK. I told you that a block is a hunk of metal. There is nothing DESIGNED into the block to work well with turbo. They are designed differently because they were made by 2 seperate companies, and spin in 2 different directions. Again, nothing in a block that makes it work better with turbo. I doubt that when the 4g63 was designed 15-20 years ago that it even had a turbo mounted to the first ones. the eclipse was not the first car to get this motor. Your tranny will be just fine with turbo. And your clutch would need an upgrade eventually. Also miles have nothing to do with reliability as far as BLOCKS go. That's like saying I want a door with less than 25,000 miles on it. Once you rebuild the motor, it is brand new again.