plz help me decide if i should upgrade my rs or just buy a gsx or gst

[siueclipse]

you need a boost controller .. hehe

 

[syn-cline]

sup everyone
ok, they say a 10 sec car is around 500 hp, thats too much for me for now. i wanna be able to roll next to a corvet and know that i can beat it. theres a lot of poser were i live, and they think just cuz they have a civic, neon, mustang, or a corvet they are all mighty and powerfull. they do stupid stuff like try to go 60mph in kmart parking lot ().....so what route do you guys think i should take? rebuild the RS or just buy the GSX?

 

[RSTsoon]

uh...you missed the whole thread didnt you?

 

[DSMNightmare]

GSX

 

[RSTwnnabe]

Hello James, you probably remeber me, i have talked to you and your friend Josh about this, and I am in the same position, because I dont know wether to rebuild my RS or jsut save my money and buy a 4G63 motor in the future. There are some shops around here that say putting a turbo on a non turbo block is not good, and you trnny cant handle it, and evetying else. I am very confused right now on waht to do with my money. Someone help!
David

 

[siueclipse]

if you build the bottom end you wont have any problems.

most normal mechanic shops don't know a thing about putting a turbo kit on a non turbo and what to expect.. the message boards are a greater resource then a regular mechanic.

 

[DSMNightmare]

Originally posted by RSTwnnabe
Hello James, you probably remeber me, i have talked to you and your friend Josh about this, and I am in the same position, because I dont know wether to rebuild my RS or jsut save my money and buy a 4G63 motor in the future. There are some shops around here that say putting a turbo on a non turbo block is not good, and you trnny cant handle it, and evetying else. I am very confused right now on waht to do with my money. Someone help!
David

If your worried about money sell the RS and get a GST. The standard hahn stage II kit with FMIC option is only going to give you enough hp to maybe pull the skin off pudding. Not worth 3K+ IMO. If money is no option then I would go with the GSX because you will see 12s in your sleep and with proper tuning and the right mods there is no telling where you can go.

If you have your heart set on a RS with a turbo then be prepared to spend 3-4K right off the bat. Even with that you'll still have your A$$ handed to you by even a lighly modded GST or Segway.

 

[siueclipse]

you wont see 12s in your sleep.. .... mike.. how much money and work have you done to your car and youre hoping to get into the low 13s? im sure ive spent more, but i think ill make it into the mid 13s.

 

[DSMNightmare]

Your right James Debs FWD A/T has less money invested in it than you have in your car and it runs 13.8@ 15psi fully loaded full tank of pump gas and my big ass driving it. I would also have to say that I have less work done to it as well considering it has the stock internals. We will be stepping it up a notch this fall when it cools off and running higher boost, better tires, and NOT a full tank of gas Were hoping for mid to high 12s but if not then we will be upping the turbo and possibly a built 6 bolt.

My AWD will see 12s this fall. Fact is if you have the right mods on a GSX it will do 12s all day long. Gabor had less mods on his GSX than you when he ran 12.1 with his GSX AND he could run 13.00 all day long@15psi on pump gas with the same turbo. So yes if money is no option then AWD is the way to go.

Also Gabor is a good tuner and driver so that does make a differnce.

 

[DSMNightmare]

Also for those skeptics out there that doubt the AWD there are several AWDs out there running between 14.4 and 13.2 with the stock T25!!!

Like I said to answer the original question:

If money matters get a GST/Tsi
If money does not matter get a GSX/Tsi AWD

If you don't believe me, go to times.dsm.org and look at these statistics.

1. 40 of 127 (31%)FWDs run 12.9 or better (none of which are GS or RS conversions)
2. 268 of 419 (61%) AWDs run 12.9 or better.

3. The fastest Gs/RS conversion on that board is running 13.2 and the fastest one on this board is running 13.6.

4. On this board 80% of the top 10 cars are AWD

5. On time.dsm.org ALL but one of the top 10 are AWD and #1 is Dave with his RWD.

BTW this is not a flame on 420a's. The kid asked what to buy and I told him the most cost effective way to do it. I commend most of you who have built your 420a's for all the work that you have put into your cars. It's not easy to be fast especially when you go the route you all have chosen. Just as I respect your opinion about your engine vs mine I would expect the same consideration with my opinion of your engine. Notice that I have not posted a bunch of "he said she said bull$hit" but rather tried to back up what I have said with facts and statistics. If the guy asked "how to turbo" or "can I be fast with a hahn kit" or something like that then I would not have bothered but he asked which way he should go so I gave my opinion.

 

[legaleagle]

Proof IS in the pudding, and you cant argue the facts or the numbers. Good luck with your buying of the car, either way.

 

[RSTsoon]

Id just like to note that not everyone submits their times on time.dsm.org, thanky ou have a nice day.

 

[DSMNightmare]

Originally posted by RSTsoon
Id just like to note that not everyone submits their times on time.dsm.org, thanky ou have a nice day.

I think everyone knows that, but rather than go by the urban legend of the 12 second 420a, I would like to see them post them up rather than hide.

 

[RSTwnnabe]

Ok i didnt want anyone to get into another"420A" vs"4G63" arguement, i was simply asking someone if goign turbo on my RS is even worht the money. i know James has, and i have been talkin to him about it. i have about 3 grand from insurance coverage, taht im am waiting to spend right now. So my options are to keep my car, build the bottom end, and turbo with the money i have saved, OR to sell my car, pay off the existing loan, buy a GST or GSX, and start paying all over agin with the money i have from insurance. My question to you guys was, is it more costly in the long run to turbo my RS? im telling you guys all now, im a smart kid, and i dont want this extreme dream of having a 10 second car. I want a RELIABLE DAILY DRIVER, with SPEED, something taht will have no problem wasting a mustang, but not something that im guna have to replace a tranny every two months. Thats another thing, when you turbo an RS, its not meant for that, so will the block go, will the clutch go, will the transmission go? As of now i have NO clue on waht to do, I have an Rs, and 3 grand to spare....James and his friends will rebuild my motor, and i can get a garret turbo kit for 3 grand,..so im kinda in a hard spot,but as of now im leaning twords just buying a GSX. Thanks
David

 

[Kirby]

First let me say that quoting times for PROFESSIONAL drivers, and race teams VS. REGULAR PEOPLE who mod their 420a's is not a fair comp. And considering that Hahn is the only pro shop that I know of that races a 2gnt that limits the comparison even further. Now taking into account the many stock parts still on Hahn's car, again I think your comparison is flawed. Not only that but consider that a Large portion of those guy's are running turbos much larger that a t3/t4 or a S20g, which is about the biggest you find on the 420a's. Your also comparing a lot of 1g's to the 2g which is a heavier car overall. Those facts don't look so great now do they?
There are guy's on 2gn't running sub 13s, but they don't post here. This is only one board. And DSM nightmare I thank you for expressing your opinion, and I would like to add that your comment "The kid asked what to buy and I told him the most cost effective way to do it." is also opinion not fact. There are a lot of things that are different price wise. Some people can get deals, and others can do their own labor. Once my fuel system is ready I hope to be posting my sub 12.99s run to this board as well as 2gnt. I'm not a bench racer though, so I won't say that it will be done, but I am pretty confident. I would also like to add, that driver ability factors a lot into a 1/4 mile time. And I think you would agree that it takes a lot more driver skill to get a FWD car into the low 12's and 11's than it does an AWD. I'm not taking away anything from the low time AWD cars, I'm just trying to say that it is easier. That may be why you don't see more FWD's be they 4g63 or 420a on the times listings. I would also just like to make clear that I do not say that my 420a is better than a 4g63, I think they are equals in potential. I think that depending on how you do things a 420a could be much cheaper to build than a 4g63, but I admit that there are ways to spend a lot of money and not get to the same point.
Legal this was your quote:
All of this you can do yourself. No handy man mechanic. And you could do all of this over a weekend.

You get the kit from Hahn, here are you expenses, minus the car.

1. Hahn Stage 2 w/FMIC $3300
2. Howell bottom end kit $1500 (not sure so don't quote me)
3. Custom exhaust 3" $400
4. Muffler $200
5. New Axels $600
6. New Tranny $800-$1000
7. New clutch $400
8. Head work $Charged by the hour, usually between $75-$100
9. Injectors $450
10. New cams $don't know, but not less then $500
11. New fuel regulator $$$$
12. New Cam Gears $ 400 (For tuning because the engine will need to be worked on tuning wise)
13. Labor $$$$$$$$$

You do the math.

Be cool for spending $8500 on a 13 second car or spend $4000 on a 10 second car. Of course this is depending the driver too.
Let me see,
1. no new tranny needed
2. no labor
3. Used star kit that was less than $2,000.
4. 3" catback exhaust $150.00
5. no new cam gears needed.
6. regulator comes with the kit. (although you will most likely need to replace it when you get to high HP)
7. no new cams needed.
8. don't need head work till your in the Crazy HP level.
9. Got clutch (stage 4 CM), Quaife LSD, Stage 3 axles from driveshaft shop.com all for $1500.
10. Exhaust comes with muffler.
11. Injectors were $200 for all 4 of my extras.
Bottom line my point is every one has a different build. I have less than 10,000 in my car right now, and we will see what it runs soon hopefully. (just waiting on my EIC) I mean no disrespect to the 4g63 guy's I'm just tired of hearing your backhanded compliments. It all depends on what you do as far as which one will be cheaper. It all depends on what you did as far as what will be reliable, and how fast it will go. Basically I see some reasons why you would go with the 4g63, and a whole lot of reasons I went with the 420a. Bottom line neither motor is better, either way could be a cheap build and end up in the same spot power wise. I look forward to seeing your reactions to my cars results once they come in. They may be good they may be bad, but either way the car will whoop ass on 90% of what I come up against. There will always be someone faster than you, regardless of what they drive. We should all be a family here, cause our cars all share a stable. Just because yours is from one side and mine from the other doesn't mean we cant be friendly, when we see each other in the field. I was a little angry in my first post because that's what all the turbo guy's say, "buy the GST" when that is not the only way to go. This topic will not be solved here, or maybe even ever, but the fact remains that there are 2 ways to go in that situation, so I wish the turbo owners would stop writing off one of them. And finally nightmare, I know your girl has not been beaten by a non turbo, but how many turbo 420a's has she raced? I would never think that a 420a in N/T form would be able to handle a turbo car, unless the driver sucked.

 

[DSMNightmare]

Well said Kirby. I know we don't see eye to eye on this but I do agree with most of your comments. Your right I thought about the 1G factor after the fact and wondered if I should have taken that into consideration. Taken that into consideration all of the guys here at GDSM that have ran 12s or even 11s have run either T3/T4, 20G or smaller. There are about 10 to 15 of them.

2Gs period can be a pain in the ass when it comes to getting 12s vs a 1G, but it is very plausable in a AWD. Your also right about my wifes car in the fact that it has never went head to head with a 420a turbo. When I made that comment it was based on timeslips of local 420a turbos, but we only have 2 of them here. I did race James back when he had the basic 420a stage II kit and I have not raced him since then head to head but I do run a faster timeslip. I think once he gets things lined up he will do better than the 9.2(I think) that he has run. I also think the Deb will run better than the 8.9 once the car is properly tuned. Right now crossing the finish line the EGTs are below 1600 and A/F is right at .99-.98 so you can see there is some serious tuning to do.

RSTsoon, I did not realize that you were going to be working with James and Josh to have your car done. I forgot that you are from around here. Honestly if you can have the work done and learn from them as it is done then you might consider that. I did not take "cost cutting" as an option because that makes the variables too broad. When doing cost/benefit I tried to go by average market prices because getting a deal is sometimes hard to come by for some people.

The key is to remember that you will need to be able to fix your own car if something goes wrong with it on a turbo 420a because most of the shops down there will not look twice at it and not many folks in GDSM will want to work on them either, though I can't necessarily speak for them.

Like I said I took two cars with similar configurations and compared them. James has a turbo 420a and gabor had a GSX with almost the same amount of mods except Gabor had the stock bottom end and stock head. Tranny was stock other than the 4spider diff and a ATC2600. So far James has said his best 1/8th mile fully loaded was a 9.something.... Gabor ran a 7.7 1/8th and 12.1 1/4 mile when he ran the GSX. They both had the EXACT same turbo.

No I don't want to get into comparing the two cars either so I'll just go by my opinion. I do think that FINDING a 4G63 that is not a A/T for cheap in this area will be hard pressed to find. I had to drive 6 hours to get my AWD, but it was worth the trip.

 

[DSMNightmare]

BTW Mods why the heck is Kirby not a wiseman? So far he has had the best 420a approach to this question. You guys need to think about it seriously

 

[RSTsoon]

"RSTsoon, I did not realize that you were going to be working with James and Josh to have your car done. I forgot that you are from around here. Honestly if you can have the work done and learn from them as it is done then you might consider that. I did not take "cost cutting" as an option because that makes the variables too broad. When doing cost/benefit I tried to go by average market prices because getting a deal is sometimes hard to come by for some people. "


Wtf dude I live in Alabama and I dont even know James in person. I think you might be refering to someone else?

 

[DSMNightmare]

Whoops I meant RSTwannabe

 

[RSTwnnabe]

OK ,well ive prety much made up my mind on seling my RS and just starting over with a 4G63. Dont get me wrong, id love to have James and Josh work on my car, and i think it would be cool to be one of the few turbo 420A's around here, but at the same time, i want a reliable car, and if it does break down, im going to have to count on James to help me out every time, considering most shops around here wont be bale to, or theyll charge out the wazoo. So I guess im going to go the safe route, and hope i can find a 4g63 for around 9 grand or less. Im not sure as to what i want though, If i cant find a GSX ill settle for a GST, becuase at least i can still have the acceleration. Can anybody help me out on finding a good deal on GSX/GST? thanks guys
David

 

[DSMNightmare]

There is a few on www.autotrader.com but you'll have to be willing to drive to get them. I only looked real quick, but I'm sure there is more.

 

[siueclipse]

NOOOOOO..... HE'S BEEN TAKEN TO THE DARK SIDE.... NOOOOOO




Good luck bud.

 

[RSTwnnabe]

Haha, i hope its not the dark side, Im sorry if i seem like a "trader" at least im not buying a mustang! haha, just kidding. I would still like to meet you though James at NOPI or something. Just becasue i may be getting a 4g63 doesnt mean we cant be friends I hope any 420A guy that has been reading this knows that i woulda loved to work on my 420A and saw what happened, becuase i have my heart and soul in that car, but in my current situation, im going to college next year, and i dont have the room for a "project car" , or the money, so i still wanna keep the DSM car, just not one thats going to run me problems in the long run. So on my search for a new car, what do you guys suggest in the way of more mechanical failure, the GST or the GSX? I have also heard that teh GSX has worse gas milage, due to powering 4 wheels instead of two. Any info you guys may posses will help me out!
Dave

 

[RSTsoon]

Id say the gsx cause of broken drive shafts.

 

[DSMNightmare]

You have to put down some serious power to break driveshafts on a AWD. The only thing that I would say is your biggest pain is the fact that if you have a FWD and your front tires go bald or you get a flat you can just get new tires. With a AWD I have heard that the tread depths always need to be close because of the VC and the stress that would be put on it.