plz help me decide if i should upgrade my rs or just buy a gsx or gst

[DSMNightmare]

If your shooting for 10s go for the GSX. It is extremely difficult in a FWD. To give you an idea of what your FWD is going to need to look like look at the "Dentist of Doom" here http://www.magnusmotorsports.com/

Look at Marcos AWD while your at it. That is a 9s car but it still gives you an idea about where you'll need to be. From the way it looks there are not many 2Gs in the 10s and even fewer FWD 2Gs in the 10s. NOT IMPOSSIBLE though.

 

[97eclipsedGS]

well, im gonna shock some people here. it all depends on you and the resources available to you. if you want to have something different, and you have the resources to support you (ie. a shop that you can trust and get cheap labor) as well as the money, then go for the upgraded rs and turbo it. but do it knowing full well that other things CAN and DO go wrong. for example, i turboed my car, and my tranny went... call it coincidence, but....my tranny did blow. now, im not trying to discourage you, but it is certainly EASIER (note, i didnt say cheaper, or better, or more respectable) to get the 4g63 motor to a lower 1/4 time and higher hp ratings. the nature of things is when you turbo a car that wasnt meant for it, things break. at least thats my experience with it. now that is NOT to say that if you put more power to a 4g63 motor that things wont go wrong, cause they probable will.

in my honest opinion... the 4g63 will give you more reliable power if done correctly, while you will have more quirks to work out with a turboed 420a. HOWEVER, you will have that uniqueness factor of a turboed non-turbo... so it depends on you, your resources, and how much patience you have.

but, i definitely love my turboed GS good luck!!!

 

[drewgray]

Originally posted by Kirby
It's a bi*** to buy a turbo car and pay all the extra for a turbo on insurance,

i don't know bout you, but i checked and my insurance would have been the same either way (turbo or N/T) and if you are looking to go 10's definitely grab an AWD

 

[redwards]

Originally posted by syn-cline
if i were to buy a turbo eclipse. now im stuck between a GS-t or a GSX
i hear many things between the 2. that the gsx will start faster but the gst is less weight and will go faster. i think if i decide to go with the turbo model i would go with a gsx. but not sure yet.

It isn't really the extra weight of the drivetrain components that is significant, it's the extra rotating mass. But consider that most of the fastest DSMs as far as 1/4 mile times are AWD, with the exception of a few RWD conversions.

 

[DSMNightmare]

Not to mention the fact that a Carbon fiber driveshaft will help reduce that mass quite a bit.

 

[redwards]

Originally posted by DSMNightmare
Not to mention the fact that a Carbon fiber driveshaft will help reduce that mass quite a bit.

Carbon fiber driveshafts ain't cheap.

 

[DSMNightmare]

Originally posted by redwards


Carbon fiber driveshafts ain't cheap.

Neither is speed

 

[legaleagle]

What I am confused in is how you can call a N/T turbo? Either it is or it isnt. Non Turbo or N/T means no turbo, none, zilch. Turbo means Turbo, you have one. It is an oxy moron to say you have an NT Turbo. Thats saying you have a hot water heater or a NIC Card. Dumb.

Anyway, to answer your question. I have both a NT (Real NT) and a AWD TSI. I had the NT first and was looking into the kit from hahn. I started to weigh the pros and cons and the whole doing something to be different. But what it came down to was this, I wanted a turbo car. I wanted a car that was built for a turbo. If you logically think about how much time and money the RS/GS will take to get you to where you want to be, you could do it in half the time with 1/4 of the money. And that could be including the price of the car.

You can get an AWD for around 5000-8000 in decent shape. Take the 3+g's for the hahn kit and you have:

1. A better and bigger turbo $900
2. A front mount w/all IC piping $900
3. AFC $300
4. Gauges $200
5. New BOV $200
6. Boost controller $100
7. Down pipe and catback exhaust $700
8. Injectors $450
9. New fuel pump $100
10. A car that was meant to have what you just put on it.

Total: $3750

All of this you can do yourself. No handy man mechanic. And you could do all of this over a weekend.

You get the kit from Hahn, here are you expenses, minus the car.

1. Hahn Stage 2 w/FMIC $3300
2. Howell bottom end kit $1500 (not sure so dont quote me)
3. Custom exhaust 3" $400
4. Muffler $200
5. New Axels $600
6. New Tranny $800-$1000
7. New clutch $400
8. Head work $Charged by the hour, usuall between $75-$100
9. Injectors $450
10. New cams $dont know, but not less then $500
11. New fuel regulator $$$$
12. New Cam Gears $ 400 (For tuning because the engine will need to be worked on tuning wise)
13. Labor $$$$$$$$$

You do the math.

Be cool for spending $8500 on a 13 second car or spend $4000 on a 10 second car. Of course this is depending the driver too.

***edit***
added a couple of things to the list.

 

[DSMNightmare]

420a injectors are not as expensive as ours are. You can get a 500cc injector for the 420a for 70 bucks.

 

[siueclipse]

Originally posted by legaleagle
All of this you can do yourself. No handy man mechanic. And you could do all of this over a weekend.

You get the kit from Hahn, here are you expenses, minus the car.

1. Hahn Stage 2 w/FMIC $3300
2. Howell bottom end kit $1500 (not sure so dont quote me)
3. Custom exhaust 3" $400
4. Muffler $200
5. New Axels $600
6. New Tranny $800-$1000
7. New clutch $400
8. Head work $Charged by the hour, usuall between $75-$100
9. New cams $dont know, but not less then $500
10. New Cam Gears $ 400 (For tuning because the engine will need to be worked on tuning wise)
11. Labor $$$$$$$$$

You do the math.

Be cool for spending $8500 on a 13 second car or spend $4000 on a 10 second car. Of course this is depending the driver too.

These are the prices....
1. Hahn Stage 2 w/FMIC $3800
2. Howell bottom end kit $1100
3. Custom exhaust 3" $200
4. Muffler $150
5. New Axels $700
6. New Tranny $800-$1000 - very unlikely that you will need a new tranny. our trannies are rated at higher HP than the 4g63.
7. New clutch $400 for a stage 1 or stage 2, $800 to $900 for a stage 3 or 4
8. Head work $Charged by the hour, usuall between $75-$100 / HOWEVER, you dont need to do headwork on our car unless you are going to hit 500hp.
8.5 - Dont forget bottom end boring from a machine shop, usually about $200 bux.
9. New cams (crane cams $429)
10. New Cam Gears $239
11. Labor = TONS OF MONEY UNLESS YOU CAN DO IT

some prices were higher rich and some were lower than what you estimated.. however.. you can always be on the look out for deals. i bought my stage 3 clutchmasters for $250 bux on ebay compared to $900 retail. Stuff like that.. you just have to keep looking out for the deals and misspelled words on ebay

Well. i really don't want to get into this debate about 4g63 vrs. 420a, however, i think its a lot more fun to have a 420a built up crazy style. Anyone can have a 4g63, but the real tuners (hehe ) make life harder so they can prevail.

James

 

[siueclipse]

also, rich, you forgot to mention that the 4g63's need a new fmu for higher boost applications.. the 420a turbo kits come with a fmu, but yes if you get the hahn kit you will want to replace it when you get bigger injectors.. if you do...

 

[DSMNightmare]

Originally posted by siueclipse
also, rich, you forgot to mention that the 4g63's need a new fmu for higher boost applications.. the 420a turbo kits come with a fmu, but yes if you get the hahn kit you will want to replace it when you get bigger injectors.. if you do...

THere are several guys in GDSM that have ran 12s with the stock FPR. Besides a FPR for the 4G63 is only 100 bux. That was a pretty non-biased opinion SIU...not too bad. The only thing I don't agree with is the tuners comment There are tons of people with AWDs running 14s with 16Gs and even 20Gs. The best tuner is the person who can get the most from the mods that he has no matter what platform he is modifiying.

**EDIT**

4G63 AWD M/T trannys are rated for 400-450 stock. What are NT trannys rated.(just curious)

 

[DSMNightmare]

sorry did not see the wink

 

[siueclipse]

When i say higher boost applications, i mean like 25psi.. i seriously doubt the stock 4g63 would work well enough. But if its only 100 bux thats cool.

Yeah i was kidding about the tuners comment. Even though.. I will say that I do believe its harder for a 420a tuner to tune their car than a 4g63 tuner.

 

[siueclipse]

Originally posted by DSMNightmare

4G63 AWD M/T trannys are rated for 400-450 stock. What are NT trannys rated.(just curious)

when i asked hahn's tech support one time, he said it was like 500 to 550 or something like that.. about a week ago i was looking around for tranny kits.. there aren't any and the biggest reason i got for it was because our trannys can handle a lot of hp.. therefore there is no need for a rebuilt kit to build it up.

 

[siueclipse]

also.. hahn and their 420a have run 11 second 1/4's without building the head or the tranny.

 

[DSMNightmare]

Right but the trade off is that Bill had to Build up the block, ignition system, and a Stand alone fuel mangement system. Marc Lang ran his 11.7 with stock block, stock head and stock tranny. I know GDSM says he has upgrades but when I spoke with Jeff I'm almost positive he said he did that with stock guts and no upgraded tranny other than the clutch, flywheel, disk, and thier own custom 4spider diff. Granted that was back in 1997 when he did it but still that is damn impressive.

 

[legaleagle]

Originally posted by siueclipse
Yeah i was kidding about the tuners comment. Even though.. I will say that I do believe its harder for a 420a tuner to tune their car than a 4g63 tuner.

I semi agree with this. Only because I do think that it is harder to tune a car for something it was never meant to have. But for the most part, it is hard to tune any car, especially when it is throwing down mad HP.

 

[siueclipse]

Yeah We all like MADDDD HP

hehe

James

 

[siueclipse]

mike... yeah granted bill had to do a lot of work, but i think.. at least for me.. its more about doing something that isn't done all that often.. kinda like dumping in a mustang 5.0 motor in a miata.. hehe

 

[DSMNightmare]

Yeah, I can appreciate that James, look at the FWD A/T. Even though I won't be the driver when that baby hits 12's

 

[siueclipse]

why wont you be driving when you hit 12s?

 

[DSMNightmare]

Debbie will be . Rather than sell it, she is taking over the build up on the car. She is also helping me build up mine.

 

[siueclipse]

why were you going to sell your car?

 

[DSMNightmare]

Well when I got the AWD the initial plan was for me to get 12s from it then strip it down and sell it. Then I thought why not let her have the option to keep it. She was the #2 person when it came to building the car. She already knows a lot about the car, and I am wanting to go a little more radical with the AWD so most of her parts I could not use. I think she is really liking the idea of racing it. Not the mention the fact that if we have her car ready in time she is going to race it at NOPI in the NOPI Chic class. Last year some girl in a Honda won with a 14second car. Debs got that easily beat, now we just have to work on consistancy. That and I need to come up with a MBC or she will be doing it at 15psi. Can you believe that 20G has never had a boost controller hooked up to it?