Please help with Cyclone

[RuBiCaNT5X]

50 bux is a good deal. Install is difficult if you don't know how the manifold works and it requires some McGuyver action as well..

 

[dsmracer69]

ya you will need 2 sticks of bubble gum and a 3ft. of fishing line

 

[Groomz]

http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showt...=25&highlight=cyclone controller&pagenumber=6

 

[Groomz]

Before I start with this, I would like to say that this was not originally my idea. This thread is only for you to know how to properly setup a Cyclone dual runner intake manifold on a USDM car without the help of a JDM ECU. This setup was thought of by the DSMtalk member ho chi inn, so if you get a chance, thank him for an awesome setup.

To start, the Cyclone manifold as we all know has dual length intake runners. The problem that most of us run into is how to make it work without the JDM ECU and the necessary solenoids. There are several urban myths that are floating around and I will cover a few:

1.) There is the option of attaching a vacuum line straight from the intake manifold to the valve actuator. This means that the moment you hit boost ( or loose vacuum ) the valves open and the short and long length runners are in use. This is wrong. It means that you loose the benefit of the long length runners at low RPMs if boost is reached. You will want the long length runners for low boost and low RPMs.This is key to a proper functioning manifold.

2.) There is the method of using a manual boost controller or bleeder valve before the valve actuator to not allow boost pressure to reach the actuator until a certain amount of boost is reached. This still does not allow the valves to stay closed when they need to because of the lack of vacuum to keep the valves shut.

Here is the "Ho Chi Inn" method.
Parts:
You will need to use both the boost control solenoid ( BCS ) and the fuel purge solenoid ( charchoal cannister solenoid also ), the vacuum cannister ( white cylinder with several fittings, should come with JDM manifold or crate motor ), a Hobbs pressure switch ( 5psi ) and a couple feet of vacuum tubing. You will also need 2 inline tee's to tap into the vacuum tubing.

Setup:
Use 2 solenoids, the boost control or BCS ( normally closed ) and the fuel purge ( normally open ), a Hobbs/Honeywell pressure switch ( 5 psi ), and the blue white vacuum resevoir, and 2 inline tee's. The EGR solenoid circuit ( comes on above 3K rpm's ) is tapped to power the solenoids. When the Hobbs switch closes, one solenoid opens, the other closes, air/boost bleeds to the actuator, and the butterflies open.

Run an input vacuum line tee'd, supplying both solenoids. The output line of the white cannister ( the port that points straight out ), and the output line from the boost control solenoid is tee'd into the input line going from the actuator to the cannister ( port that comes out then goes 90 degree's ). Power for the solenoids is the purge circuit, which is controlled by a boost pressure switch ( Hobbs ) set to about 5psi.

What it does:
What happens is when you first start the car, the ECU holds power to the purge valve until the car warms up, then will only apply power about 3K rpm's. However, since power is now controlled by the pressure switch ( Hobbs ), full vacuum is routed from the purge solenoid, normally open, to the white cannister, which pulls the actuator, closing the butterflies. Since the boost solenoid is normally closed, and no power is going to it, there is, in essence, only one line active, full vacuum. When about 5psi of boost is reached ( and above 3K rpm's ), the Hobbs switch closes, power goes to the solenoids, the purge solenoid closes, the boost solenoid, opens, and the vacuum cannister is eliminated from the circuit, and only boost pressure goes to the actuator, opening the butterflies.

I will try later to get the pics up. Remember that Ho Chi Inn ( DSMtalk member ) came up with this to use on his Galant VR4 and has been working for more than 2 years. You will need to have the BCS and purge solenoids, or ones that function in the same manner.

Big thanks to Ho Chi Inn on DSMtalk for explaining this and I hope it helps anyone that is having trouble with their's.

 

[RuBiCaNT5X]

I don't mean to burst your bubble or anything, but you can get the same results with a T25 actuator and a boost controller.

 

[Groomz]

Originally posted by RuBiCaNT5X
I don't mean to burst your bubble or anything, but you can get the same results with a T25 actuator and a boost controller.

That is definitely an option. The above method listed is for the average DSM owner who will already have most of those parts, and will not be required to fabricate a mount for the wastegate actuator and shorten the actuator arm.

I did not include that method as it requires a high level of fabrication. The other method only involves zip-ties and connecting wires. Much easier in my opinion. It may look like more work, but it is the closest in operation to the factory design. To each his own.

 

[RuBiCaNT5X]

I wouldn't say it's a high level of fabrication. I'll be putting mine on in April when I do my 1G head swap and take plenty of pictures!

 

[Groomz]

Originally posted by RuBiCaNT5X
I wouldn't say it's a high level of fabrication. I'll be putting mine on in April when I do my 1G head swap and take plenty of pictures!

The only problem I would see with the wastegate actuator setup is when full boost ( or whatever boost the actuator moves at ) is reached, the valves open. On smaller turbos that would see a good amount of boost early enough ( 14b or T25/28, maybe 16G ), you would be opening the butterflies too early, not getting the full effect they offer. The method I found works very similarly to the JDM setup, so if you want it to function like you bought a JDM vehicle, then use that method. If you do get it working, post it up, I would really like to see it. I have not seen anyone actually do it. Maybe a tech article?

 

[RuBiCaNT5X]

Originally posted by Groomz
The only problem I would see with the wastegate actuator setup is when full boost ( or whatever boost the actuator moves at ) is reached, the valves open. On smaller turbos that would see a good amount of boost early enough ( 14b or T25/28, maybe 16G ), you would be opening the butterflies too early, not getting the full effect they offer. The method I found works very similarly to the JDM setup, so if you want it to function like you bought a JDM vehicle, then use that method. If you do get it working, post it up, I would really like to see it. I have not seen anyone actually do it. Maybe a tech article?

So many people shy away from the Cyclone because it's hard to implement. With the wastegate actuator, all you need is a boost controller to control the feel of boost to the actuator arm and you are golden... Problem is dialing in the right amount of boost but that can be overcame..

 

[Groomz]

Originally posted by RuBiCaNT5X
So many people shy away from the Cyclone because it's hard to implement. With the wastegate actuator, all you need is a boost controller to control the feel of boost to the actuator arm and you are golden... Problem is dialing in the right amount of boost but that can be overcame..

Very true. Its not really that difficult to make it work, and there are more than one way to do it for sure. Once its fabbed up and working, your mostly done. A boost gauge on the vacuum line would help to figure out setting the MBC.

One method that I read about involved simply using an electric motor and RPM window switch. At 3000rpm's ( or whenever your turbo spools ) have it swith over. I would set your setup at the a few psi below your spool up point, that way it will be fully open when the boost hits. I know that my T25 see's boost at any throttle position above 2000rpm's, so I would set it pretty high just to keep it closed. With a bigger turbo its not a problem though, and if you still have the T25, there should be other mods done first anyway. Post a pic of the mounting hardware, I would really like to see it when you are done.

 

[RuBiCaNT5X]

Originally posted by Groomz
Very true. Its not really that difficult to make it work, and there are more than one way to do it for sure. Once its fabbed up and working, your mostly done. A boost gauge on the vacuum line would help to figure out setting the MBC.

One method that I read about involved simply using an electric motor and RPM window switch. At 3000rpm's ( or whenever your turbo spools ) have it swith over. I would set your setup at the a few psi below your spool up point, that way it will be fully open when the boost hits. I know that my T25 see's boost at any throttle position above 2000rpm's, so I would set it pretty high just to keep it closed. With a bigger turbo its not a problem though, and if you still have the T25, there should be other mods done first anyway. Post a pic of the mounting hardware, I would really like to see it when you are done.

I gotta stop at Home Depot Motorsports sometime and gets some materials.. hehehe..

 

[Groomz]

Originally posted by RuBiCaNT5X
Home Depot Motorsports

The look on the cashiers face when I say all this stuff is for my car:


Many performance parts for all my cars have been forged with HDM parts.

I hear a F&F sequel coming up.

HDM.

The underground street racing scene exposed!

 

[RuBiCaNT5X]

Originally posted by Groomz
The look on the cashiers face when I say all this stuff is for my car:


Many performance parts for all my cars have been forged with HDM parts.

I hear a F&F sequel coming up.

HDM.

The underground street racing scene exposed!

Mild mannered home store is really the front for illegal street racing... It's a national conspiracy, spanning the country! hehehe..

 

[dsmturboawd]

god i love homedepot.

 

[Groomz]

Originally posted by dsmturboawd
god i love homedepot.

That's how I start my prayers.

If anyone actually finds this thread useful, please let me know. I do have a diagram I drew up that I can e-mail you if you want to make this work. I also have a real picture of the setup.

 

[Auladan]

I may need that diagram. I'm not sure what kind of intake I have. I recently ordered and recieved a JDM motor, and I have it bolted down into my 90' Talon right now, with most everything connected. But, I'm not sure if the intake is Cyclone or not. It doesn't say Cyclone on it, but it looks alot different than my stock 90' intake manifold, and the runners look alot thicker.

I need to know weither or not I have a Cyclone intake or not:

Do all Cyclone intake's have "Cyclone" on it?

If not, how else can I identify it?

Thanks.

 

[RuBiCaNT5X]

Some do not have "Cyclone" on it... Some have "MULTI ECI" (or whatever is written on the 1G) which I believe came out of the JDM GVR4..

 

[Groomz]

Originally posted by Auladan
I may need that diagram. I'm not sure what kind of intake I have. I recently ordered and recieved a JDM motor, and I have it bolted down into my 90' Talon right now, with most everything connected. But, I'm not sure if the intake is Cyclone or not. It doesn't say Cyclone on it, but it looks alot different than my stock 90' intake manifold, and the runners look alot thicker.

I need to know weither or not I have a Cyclone intake or not:

Do all Cyclone intake's have "Cyclone" on it?

If not, how else can I identify it?

Thanks.

There are a couple of ways to tell. The Cyclone intake will be a two piece design versus the US one which is one piece. Its going to have something that looks like an actuator ( like a wastegate actuator ) on it and should have come with a white cannister with some nipples coming out of the top and bottom. You can make it work with out this though, or go to Autozone and buy something similar. PM me your e-mail, I'll send you the pics you'll need.

 

[RuBiCaNT5X]

My T25 wastegate actuator came in today so I might have some pictures for you guys this weekend..

 

[Groomz]

Originally posted by RuBiCaNT5X
My T25 wastegate actuator came in today so I might have some pictures for you guys this weekend..

Let the fabrication begin!

 

[Velo7825]

First off from what I’ve read about the cyclone manifold and intake manifold design. boost pressure has nothing to do with runner length VS. volumetric efficiency. please correct me if I’m wrong.

But that’s why the BCS method never worked because you could be at low boost in high rpm where the long runners are adversely effecting torque.

That’s why Groomz method is better then the old simple BCS method RuBiCaNT5X suggested.

But even with Groomz method will you always get the change over at the specific rpm or will boost and throttle position effect the change over rpm?

Also you say around 3k rpm, this is actually a little low from what I’ve researched. Is their some reason other then "that’s how it works when you hook it up"?

Lastly is it really that hard to fabricate (or buy) an rpm based adjustable setup? I know hardly anyone out their is running a stock setup which is what the JDM ECU was programmed for, and we all know most mods done will move your torque band up in the rpm range.

 

[RuBiCaNT5X]

Originally posted by Velo7825
First off from what I’ve read about the cyclone manifold and intake manifold design. boost pressure has nothing to do with runner length VS. volumetric efficiency. please correct me if I’m wrong.

But that’s why the BCS method never worked because you could be at low boost in high rpm where the long runners are adversely effecting torque.

That’s why Groomz method is better then the old simple BCS method RuBiCaNT5X suggested.

But even with Groomz method will you always get the change over at the specific rpm or will boost and throttle position effect the change over rpm?

Also you say around 3k rpm, this is actually a little low from what I’ve researched. Is their some reason other then "that’s how it works when you hook it up"?

Lastly is it really that hard to fabricate (or buy) an rpm based adjustable setup? I know hardly anyone out their is running a stock setup which is what the JDM ECU was programmed for, and we all know most mods done will move your torque band up in the rpm range.

I'm pretty confident that it will work, but only time will tell... I don't see how just having the long runners would be a hinderance. Typically, at low boost you are at a low throttle position, regarldess of the RPM. With that being said, there isn't much air volume to begin with because of the small TP. I'd say it's a direct relationship where RPM wouldn't come into play..

 

[Velo7825]

I'm not sure if i read your post wrong, but your saying that either way you do it rpm doesn't effect the butterflies in the intake?

What I was saying is that nothing else matters except rpm when you are talking about dual runner intakes. We aren't designing the intake its already made and we know it flows "almost as much as a 1g intake manifold". The only thing we need to do is find out how to make it work with our cars and "tune it".

So we need to find out where in our torque curve we would most benefit from the switching from (small port area long runners) to (large port area short runners). Which all has to do with port velocity and piston speed. correct?

 

[Groomz]

Originally posted by Velo7825
First off from what I’ve read about the cyclone manifold and intake manifold design. boost pressure has nothing to do with runner length VS. volumetric efficiency. please correct me if I’m wrong.

But that’s why the BCS method never worked because you could be at low boost in high rpm where the long runners are adversely effecting torque.

That’s why Groomz method is better then the old simple BCS method RuBiCaNT5X suggested.

But even with Groomz method will you always get the change over at the specific rpm or will boost and throttle position effect the change over rpm?

Also you say around 3k rpm, this is actually a little low from what I’ve researched. Is their some reason other then "that’s how it works when you hook it up"?

Lastly is it really that hard to fabricate (or buy) an rpm based adjustable setup? I know hardly anyone out their is running a stock setup which is what the JDM ECU was programmed for, and we all know most mods done will move your torque band up in the rpm range.

There are a few problems. The method I describe activates at 3000rpm's, and any boost above 5psi opens the valves. If you are at a high RPM and below 5psi, there are more than a few things going wrong. Any turbo should be able to pump out at least 5psi by 3000rpm's or later, so driveability is not really an issue. The 3000rpm's is the same as the JDM ECU. You can by all means use an RPM switch to activate at whatever engine speed you want. There are really no limits if you are a little creative with the setup. If there is concern for having all topend flow and not wanting the long runners, then the Cyclone is not for you. Its more for the daily driver who wants low end torque and better gas mileage while still having good topend of the USDM manifold ( The Cyclone flows 2cfm less than the US manifold on a flowbench ). This setup described is the closest in operation to the JDM counterpart and will please most Cyclone owners searching for a way to have it work correctly.

The change over does not simply occure at 3000rpm's. At 3000rpm's the circuit has power. The circuit must be closed when the switch senses 5psi of boost. Then it will close the circuit and change the lines to the boosted line, opening the valves. You can still cruise at 3500rpms off boost and be using the long runners. Hit the throttle, and it opens the valves and you are ready to go. Hope this helps.

 

[RuBiCaNT5X]

Originally posted by Velo7825
I'm not sure if i read your post wrong, but your saying that either way you do it rpm doesn't effect the butterflies in the intake?

What I was saying is that nothing else matters except rpm when you are talking about dual runner intakes. We aren't designing the intake its already made and we know it flows "almost as much as a 1g intake manifold". The only thing we need to do is find out how to make it work with our cars and "tune it".

So we need to find out where in our torque curve we would most benefit from the switching from (small port area long runners) to (large port area short runners). Which all has to do with port velocity and piston speed. correct?

I'll be the first to admit I am no expert in air velocity vs port size dynamics. My point is that 8psi seems to be a good spot for both sets of runners to open up from what I have read from people's experience. I guess I will find out.