Please help me identify my clutch/transmission problem????

[95DsManiac]

Hey all.

It seems like the only time I post on here is when I have something going wrong which is all the time for me.

So, on to the problem at hand. I and a couple friends did a clutch job which took 4 6 hour days. when I did the clutch job I got a used exedy 3 puck clutch kit with I think a 2300lb pressure plate, a new OEM trow out bearing, got the flywheel resurfaced and stepped to .608”, a new passenger axle and 3 quarts of mt85 redline transmission fluid. We finished on thursday May 2nd at around midnight. They also put break fluid in the clutch reservoir I think????

Well I start the car and it starts right up and I let it warm up and get into learned mode or whatever it is. I then go to test drive around the block. First thing I notice is it is REALLY hard to go into first gear. Well I take that back, the very first thing I notice is, it is harder to push in the clutch pedal. I know it is supposed to be a little harder, but its like I cant feel it engage. Like when I push it, its hard but I cant really feel the spot where it engages you know what I mean? Well I then get it in gear and start to go, all is well, it shifts into 2nd fine as well as third. I then go back to my friends house.

I tell them what I noticed and they adjusted the pedal or something like that. I test it again, but just went about 40ft. basically did a circle because we were on a court. Then it started to shake on initial take off out of first. kinda felt like a worn out motor mount, but on the transmission side. I then tried reverse, it would grind like crazy. Before it would grind sometimes, but never like this. It would even try to engage even when my foot wasn’t in the pedal. And when it finally stops grinding and goes into the gear it would jerk into reverse. The car/motor/gear I mean.

I had no choice but to drive it like that because that day me and my wife found out we were going to have a baby and my wife got into it with a family member where we were staying and we got kicked out, so like I said I had no choice but to drive it. I had to drive it like that for 80 miles to my other in laws house to stay there for the night. On the trip/drive there the car acted fine on the freeway and normal driving besides taking some muscle to go into first gear. All the other gears besides reverse were perfectly fine.

Well today I went to go pick up my car from where I had it parked at. (had to park it in front of my cousins house because where my mother in law stays at there is a bunch of little wanna be gang members that are “watching me” or so someone told me, so I don’t want my car to be on bricks and windows busted you know). When I was driving back to my mother in laws house the first gear problem got worse.

What I mean by worse is, I would have to like force it into first and when I would try to go (drive) it (the car) would shake kind of bad. But if i would give it a lot of gas, enough to burn rubber, it wouldn’t shake as bad. I then tried to just release the pedal really fast and that seemed to work, but is hard to drive like that. It is kind of like launching every time I would want to take off.

Well we (my wife, me, and mother in law) go to her cousins daughters birthday party and all the problems stayed problems. It was a 120 mile round trip. On the way back my wife pointed out a noise to me that I never noticed, But I guess being pregnant gives you special smell/sense/hearing powers . Well the noise sounded like the clutch was spinning on the flywheel.

Let me put this out there. I don’t know anything about the clutch/transmission and how things work. So bare with me and please don’t bash and correct me if im wrong, for I am always open to learn things especially in the DSM world.

So, the noise I noticed would only be there when I was in gear and I would let off the gas pedal. Like when on the freeway and in 5th gear I would just let off the gas and that is when the noise would occur. It didn’t matter what gear I would be in, it would still make that kind of grinding/scraping noise. Im not going to try to go into depth about explaining “x” noise because it only helps to a certain extent and would confuse some more than help understand. Also when I push back on the gas pedal the noise would go away. Im not for sure but I think it goes away when i push in the clutch, but my pregnant super power wife does not.

From what I understand (please correct me if im wrong) is that when you push the clutch pedal in, it puts pressure on the TOB, which in turn puts pressure on the pressure plate and in turn presses the clutch to the flywheel???? Am I close???? Well what I think is going on is the clutch isn’t staying engaged on the flywheel when I release the gas pedal? Or the TOB wasn’t installed right and is moving, but wouldn’t it do it all the time if that were it?

Honestly, I know I am rambling on and am saying too much, but I really need help. I am in such a fuxxxx up situation and need all the help I can get. Plus I know there is some very respectful and helpful people on this site and I just want to put out there that I highly appreciate all the words of wisdom, helping hand, and guidance that is given to me and to all the other DSM’ers in the world today. Without the people who have great knowledge/wisdom about DSMs us newbies like myself and many others would have more excruciating headaches than we already have. So, THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR HELP.

Few questions to that I keep asking myself.

Could the MT85 redline tray fluid be the wrong fluid and cause some of the problems I am having?

What could the noise be that my wife picked up on when I let off the gas?

Why does the car shake so bad kind of no matter what I do when I am leaving a stop light etc in first gear? (feels like bogging/hopping/wheel hopping/shaking/rattling etc etc)

Why is it so hard to go into first, when before it was perfect?

Why does it grind no matter what going into reverse when before it was only on occasion? Also why does it even go into reverse when my foot isn’t even in the clutch? Also, why after grinding for about 4-10 seconds, it jerks into reverse?

Why is the clutch pedal so hard, and why cant I fell the part of engagement? BTW after I put it into gear I can move my foot about a inch and it would grab.

Let me say im sorry for asking and saying so much. And thank you to all who help me out in the tuff situations I am in and all the things I am going through right now.

 

[93AWDDSM]

first, please try not to drive it while its grinding. I know your situation sucks currently but if you continue to drive as is you can say bye to your synchros.

where does the clutch fork sit on the tranny bell housing? should be middle or slightly towards the driver side, if its leaning towards the Passenger side too much you might be hitting the housing which would be that "can't feel engagement" part.

was your old clutch stock? PP and flywheel all torqued down to spec? does your master/slave have any leaks?

 

[TSI_AWD_FTW]

If all else fails a simple band aid that I've always used is an extended push rod, for some reason all my stock clutch and pressure plates didnt need it, but as soon as I switched it to after market it would do the same thing. I would just put in the extended push rod problem solved. This might help, also your pivot ball for your clutch fork could also be worn down not allowing it to fully engage. But the sound you are hearing when you left off is most likely clutch chatter. I wouldn't worry to much about that. Hope this helps.

 

[fantom73088]

Make sure your clutch is adjusted properly at the pedal when under the car you should still be able to push the for in by hand (compress the slave cylinder). If the slave cylinder will not compress you have adjusted the clutch out to far which would be unfortunate because it sounds like your clutch is not releasing. So you need to adjust it at the pedal out as far as possible while still being able to push that slave cylinder back in. I've had similar issues in my dsm's the best fix is to replace the shift fork and pivot ball with new ones and shim the pivot ball with a couple washers being sure to use lock tire when putting the pivot ball back in. This unfortunately requires you to remove the transmission again.

Hope this helps you resolve your issue.

 

[95DsManiac]

Thanks for all the helpful replies.

First off, can I do any of these things WITHOUT pulling the transmission off? I tried to explain my situation the best I can without getting too much into personal business, but I literally am homeless. I can try to do all I can, but I don't think I can get the transmission off any time soon.

Also the previous clutch was a stock one, or a stock replacement. It was worn down a lot. Thats why I changed it because I couldn't even do normal driving without slipping like crazy. But before that everything else was perfectly fine. Like the engagement, there was no grinding into gears or reverse, and it was shifting into any gear perfectly fine. And there was no shaking like crazy leaving from a stop like there is now. Its getting really irritating. Even so because I just cant NOT drive it. I have no choice but to drive it. Thats why I need all the help I can get to get things in order.

Thank you all so much for helping me.

 

[TSI_AWD_FTW]

You don't have to take off the tranny to install an extended push arm, just take out the two bolts on the slave cylinder and pull it down. Pull out the push rod that's in it and instal the other one. Oil the rod just a little bit, it will make it a lot easy coming out and going back in. And it shouldn't take you but 15 minutes to do. It's real simple.

 

[93AWDDSM]

ok do these first:
1. check the master and slave cylinder(inside the car and by the bottom outside of tranny housing) for leaks
2. check to see where the clutch fork sits while your under checking the slave cylinder for leakage
3. test to see if the clutch is adjusted correctly by going under the car and pushing the clutch fork towards the slave cylinder, if it moves you should be good but I would watch this video to correctly adjust it([ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYJxQyjIhUw]Proper Clutch Adjustment - YouTube[/ame])
4. have a friend push the clutch in and check the bell housing for proper clutch fork movement(make sure its not hitting the housing)
5. bleed bleed bleed it, and bleed it again make sure there is not air in the system.
and let us know, we can go from there.

 

[95DsManiac]

TSI-AWD-FTW: Thanks for the advice. I might be PMing you to get further assistance on installing an extended push rod. I don't even know what a push rod is . Also, what exactly does installing an extended push rod do? Like, would it help me go into first gear easier, or would it stop the shaking from when I take off from a stop?

93AWDDSM: Thanks for the helpful tips and directions/steps to take to do what you advised. Its crazy you post that video because about a hour before you post it, I watched it . It is a useful video for people like me just getting to learning about the transmission and all its little helpers. I followed all the steps in that video, but I got to adjust it a little more. Let me tell you why I didn't adjust it fully today.

Well, today I go and buy MT90 and one bottle of MTL so I can change the transmission fluid because I personally thought that the people that put it in did it wrong. I don't know how they missed the 17MM bolt thats clearly says OIL . Well I loosened the drain plug and put the pan underneath to catch the oil. I stood up to smoke a cigarette when I herd a "clunk" sound. I waited until it was all the way out and I moved it side to side and I noticed the entire oil had a somewhat shine to it like metal dust if I must say so myself. I then Found a few chunks of metal. The only big one was about the size of a tip of a pen or a little bigger. There were a few others that were a lot smaller but there was chunks that did come out. It scared the sxxx out of me because I cant afford a new transmission now or in the near future. Well after that I put in the fluid in the fill plug and put the tire back on and lowered the car. I then go to adjust the clutch like shown in the video above and I go to start the car and nothing, it wouldn't start. I must have sighed sooooooo loud . At this point I am beyond depressed and going through it. I keep at it and try and try to adjust and start, adjust and start, and it would not start. I got it to start only 2 times and I couldn't figure how I did it. I thought it was the starter because it wouldn't crank. So I take stuff out to get to it and everything seemed fine. Well I got fed up and went in the house to search the web and try to find out what is going on. I read for hours and decided to try to unplug the clutch switch thing because I thought Id try the easiest first. To my surprise the car started right up. I turned it off and again it started about 4 more times. I didn't keep trying because I didn't want something else to go wrong .

It is still hard to go into first but not as hard. What should I do about that?

Also, now the clutch engages about 45% on the way back up. Is this good? It still shakes like crazy when first taking off, what would cause this?

 

[TSI_AWD_FTW]

Those chunks I'd be worried about. It's probably your synchronizers from grinding so often. But that shaking might just be from the more aggressive clutch you might try getting higher tons and letting out on the clutch just a little slower to help it break in and it should stop after a while.

But for sure. Pm me if you need anything.

 

[93AWDDSM]

ok, I read slightly your other post about your cv axle on the end of the splines the clip that secures it in the transmission came off of the splines and might have fallen into your tranny? correct me if I'm wrong.

also did you check your master/slave cylinder for leaks?
as well as which side the clutch fork sits(should be middle or leaning slightly towards driver side)
and you're able to push the slave cylinder in by hand with the clutch fork?

the shake is chatter on take off.

TSI-AWD-FTW:Also, what exactly does installing an extended push rod do? Like, would it help me go into first gear easier, or would it stop the shaking from when I take off from a stop?

a extended rod would in theory give you more travel for the clutch fork to push on the TOB, but as he stated if ALL else fails that should be the last approach because its a bandaid fix.

 

[xxNocturnalxx]

EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts

 

[95DsManiac]

TSI-AWD-FTW: thanks for the help bro. So what your saying is give it more gas and let out slower? I try that and it seems to work but I keep siking myself out and telling myself it isn't. Also what seems to help is rev until about 3500-4000 and let out the clutch really fast. But Ill try your way, but can you coach me through it a little more? Also I am very worried about the chunks. I just wish I wasn't in the situation im in then I can just park the car and take it apart.

To make matters even worse for me and whats going on personally, some little scrap Puxx mxxxxxfxxxxxx literally cut my car last night with a knife. My mother in law called me at about 12:45am after going and checking on my car and tells me she noticed the car cover I put over it is slashed all the way around, so she takes it off the car and there is a deep knife gouge all the way around the car. (she lives in a apartment complex with gated parking) Well yea, I had to move it around 3:45am because I didn't want anything else to happen.

93AWDDSM: Yes you read correctly about the circlip not coming out. Also, I didn't check for leaks, but I don't see any kind of liquids anywhere, but I will check. Also I did check the clutch fork, it was more towards the passenger side. But, should it stay in the middle or close to the driver side after a clutch install without adjusting anything? Because we didn't check anything or adjust anything after we were done because it was midnight and I had to go find somewhere to stay for the night. And it would engage about a inch or two off the ground when I would put it in gear and take off from a stop. Yesterday I went down and adjusted it and now it goes into first a lot easier and now it engages about 45% from the ground, maybe 65% because it is really high when it engages, so im going to try and adjust it right where I want it. Also, when I did adjust it, it did go into first easier, and still grinds into reverse but go's in easier. Is this a good thing? Or am I one of those people who are just putting a bandaid on things?

XxNocternalxX: Thanks for the link. I might be getting one of those in there near future.

 

[93AWDDSM]

93AWDDSM: Also I did check the clutch fork, it was more towards the passenger side. But, should it stay in the middle or close to the driver side after a clutch install without adjusting anything?

that's most likely your problem of engagement/disengagement the fork is not giving you enough throw, with a correct step resurfaced flywheel, and good new clutch/used and everything else checks out it should be middle, and you might have to drop the transmission to shim the pivot ball(put a washer behind it, not too thick or too thin) so it will slightly extended the pivot ball which will move the fork more towards the middle/driver side which is better. No, your not band aiding anything currently, adjusting is the way its supposed to fix it.

also have you checked to see if the fork is actually hitting the tranny housing? you should check that next.

That chunks of metal and dust stuff might have been the cv axle clip running through the gears?

 

[95DsManiac]

Ok so I finally got around to checking on my car and the fork is all the way to the passenger side. I don't think it's touching but it's all the way to the that side.

 

[nelliott500]

Ok so I finally got around to checking on my car and the fork is all the way to the passenger side. I don't think it's touching but it's all the way to the that side.

If it's almost all the way to the passenger side, you need to pull the trans and shim the pivot ball. Currently, your slave rod can't push the clutch fork far enough to disengage the clutch.

 

[95DsManiac]

Ok, so I went and checked again today. This time I the day light . When I looked closely it seems to be right in the middle. I'm going to have to get a picture tomorrow for you all to see.

 

[95DsManiac]

After about the first 300 miles after clutch install everything went back to normal. The car stopped shaking really bad when taking off from a stop. It also stopped being really hard to go into first. It still grinned going into reverse but not as much. Well today after I found out the track was closed, I decided to go pick up a steal of a deal on a 1990 bare 6 bolt block with main caps, 90 really good condition 6 bolt crank, 90 oil filter housing, 90 front case and oil pump, 1g starter, 500 miles 6 bolt fwd act flywheel (looks new), all pulleys, rear main seal, all bolts for everything, 1g fwd transmission plate for block, 6 bolt oil pan, 6 bolt oil pick up tube, and 6 bolt oil dip stick with tube all for 200 bucks and a exedy clutch I had sitting in storage. Well on the way there I got stuck in traffic. Right on a 25-35 degree angle hill, well it was literally stop and go, bumper to bumper, and about 15-20 minutes of that the clutch started to mess up. Or the transmission, or both for all I know. The shaking really hard came back, but ten fold. It would shake vigorously no matter what I did. Well I take that back because it wouldn't shake if I would give it a lot of gas and let off the clutch really fast and most of the time burn rubber, but wouldn't shake.

Also it is nearly imposible to shift into first. it would take some muscle to get it into gear. Or I would shift into second and then push it up and it would go into first most of the time. Well after I got out the traffic and met up with the guy and picked up the stuff the car started messing up more. It would only do this in first gear though. In second it would be fine as well as all the other gears. Stop and go driving is a pain. Freeway driving is normal. Well about half way home when I was at a stop and getting ready to get on the freeway I heard a really loud grinding noise and got even louder when I went to take off. After I got back to where my wife was and picked her up It got worse. We started to drive to find a hotel to stay for the night and no matter what it would be really hard to go into first and it would make that noise every single time now. If I'm not mistaken it sounds like the TOB moving around and rubbing/grinding against everything it could touch. And the car would shake so bad I would have to keep taking it out of gear because I was affraid the engine would jump out the car. I wish I can record the noise while trying to take off but I can't. Ill try to get my wife to record it tomorrow in the motel parking lot. And the most messed up part about this all is I just spent 200 on an engine I could build when I could've spent it towards a transmission. And what's even more messed up is me and my wife are still without a home, so I have no choice but to drive my car because we have all our belongings in it and my wife's beetle.

Please any and all suggestions are NEEDED!!!! I need to figure this out soooooo bad. I can't even tell you all how much I'm stressing over this.

Thanks again guys and girls.

 

[95DsManiac]

Update: well the other day after all the above has happened, me and my wife go to a inn to stay for a couple days and the car would make horrible noises when I turn on the car and then put my foot in the clutch to engage the gear. Even if I just put my foot in the clutch without putting it in gear it would make a horrible grinding and scraping noise. The noise is louder than the car itself. Then it wouldn't go into first or reverse. I could get it in reverse sometimes but I just decided to kill the engine and leave it there and tow it when the time comes.

Well yesterday I finally got a tow truck to meet me at the hotel to get a 73 mile tow and the first truck said my AAA doesn't cover a lowered car, sigh sigh sigh sigh. I called them again and they sent a truck but it would take two hours. So I decided to jack the car up and try to figure out what was going on. I had my wife start the car and put her foot in the clutch to see if I can pin point the noise. It was coming from the driver side or closer to the driver side. I had her turn off the car and I crawled under there to investigate.

What I found I could not believe my eyes. Remember when I posted the thread about I met some people and they said I could work on my car in there drive way and help me do my clutch job and ended up losing my wallet with 1700 in and along with all my personal stuff, DL, SS card etc. Well this would be the first and last time I let anyone touch my car without knowledge of dsm's.

What happened was, they forgot to put 3 transmission bolts on the transmission to the block. 2 on the bottom and one on the top. On the bottom of the transmission it was about a 1/4" or more off the block. I couldn't believe this has happened to me and to top it off my axle broke too. I was just staring at the transmission hanging off the block in disbelief and was thanking god that nothing has happened like my flywheel smashing through my bell housing and hurting my pregnant wife.

Well today I look up the size of transmission bolts and me and my wife took the beetle to autozone. I ended up buying a 4 bolts for $16 and they didn't work. So I had to go to Ace Hardware and get some more. One was suppose to be 8mm x 1.25 x 65mm and I could only get my hands on a 60-70mm ones. So I just got them for a brandade fix. And guess what...........

I put them on, tightened the rest because they were hand tight loose. I started to the car and put my foot in the clutch and nothing. No noise, no grinding or scraping. I put my foot in the clutch and tried to put it in first, it went in with EASE, same with reverse and any other gear. I go to drive and guess what, no chattering, no jumping, no harsh engagement, no nothing. The car drives soooo good. Better than when I had stock clutch. Now all I got to do is get a axle and ill be good to go. Now I can take my time on my 6 bolt build and not rush things. All though all I need is pistons and get the block cleaned up and bored only because the pistons I got are 85.5. The block is so good it still has the cross stitching . Well let me stop getting side tracked, I'm just so happy that something has finally went good for me.

I hope this NEVER happens to anyone but if you let someone work on your transmission and your getting these symptoms, check your bolts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If anything else happens to my transmission, god forbids it don't, I'll be posting it here.

Thank you all for your help. I appreciate it all.