Oil supply line location ?????

[set3422]

One bad thing about relocating to oil fiter housing. When you get excessive blow-by from worn piston ring, this would send enormous pressure load to the turbo. Eventually turbo oil seal would wear out prematurely.

 

[TalonJohn94]

OK, sorry, let me rephrase my question...

After reading all the evidence for and against the relocation of the turbo's oil feed line, I am wondering if this argument pertains to factory MHI turbos, such as the 14b, 16g, 20g, etc,..

[/B]What are your opinions for relocating the oil feed line in use with the EVO III 16g? Should I buy a SS line, and if so, should I go from head or filter housing?[/B]

Any opinions are appreciated.

 

[Gooberlog]

It appears from the feedback that for any performance or warranty concerns, the SS oil feed line from the filter housing would be the better option of the two, unless you have a variable like set3422 said like an old worn out engine like mine with 146,000 miles on it getting blow by. Wonder how much of a problem blow by could be and how could you detect it? I was thinking of upgrading to the SS feed line on the housing, but should i wait till i upgrade my 14b to a larger "more than likely thrust bearing" turbo? Thanks
Travis
12.74 on 14b "With stock oil and water lines "

 

[tanner261]

Oil supply from the head does not exceed 20 psi on my 1G at 7k RPM, at idle it drops to 5 psi. This is on a warm engine with 10w-30. This will be sufficient for a factory Mitsu turbo, but one with a modified thrust bearing a la FP, or a std. brg. Garrett should have a better oil supply. On top of the oil pressure being so low from the head, the turbo itself has a small orfice for the oil feed, further reducing pressure that the bearing actually sees.

 

[BUCK]

Originally posted by tanner261 the turbo itself has a small orfice for the oil feed, further reducing pressure that the bearing actually sees.

Great stuff about the Oil pressures - no one else has had that Info - but you meant the Stock Turbo Oil Feed Line has a small orifice - correct? - I remember the hole in my stock Turbo being full size - it was the engine end of the Stock Turbo Oil Supply Line that had the small orifice at the banjo fitting if I remember correctly. I still say we may could all benefit from shimming our Oil Pressure Relief Valve Springs to increase oil pressure a little - God knows we MOD everything else!

 

[dsmturboawd]

Originally posted by tanner261
Oil supply from the head does not exceed 20 psi on my 1G at 7k RPM, at idle it drops to 5 psi. This is on a warm engine with 10w-30. This will be sufficient for a factory Mitsu turbo, but one with a modified thrust bearing a la FP, or a std. brg. Garrett should have a better oil supply. On top of the oil pressure being so low from the head, the turbo itself has a small orfice for the oil feed, further reducing pressure that the bearing actually sees.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=91514

Originally posted by set3422
One bad thing about relocating to oil fiter housing. When you get excessive blow-by from worn piston ring, this would send enormous pressure load to the turbo. Eventually turbo oil seal would wear out prematurely.

the turbo would be the least of my conserns @ that point.

 

[BUCK]

the turbo would be the least of my conserns @ that point.

True - and it comes to mind that those of us (like Tanner 261) who have done the Balance Shaft Delete Mod have better oil flow thru the engine anyway that could offset the addition of the SS hose from Oil Filter Housing - Inversely those who have fitted SS Oil Lines from their Oil Filter Housing with no orifice and have NOT done the Balance Shaft Delete Mod have WORSE Oil flow thru THEIR engines & I still don't like the long hot route the SS line has to take from the Oil Filter Housing but it's probably Synthetic Oil anyway...

 

[TalonJohn94]

My 7-bolt was rebuilt at about 40,000 miles ago. Regardless, I guess I have no choice but to do the SS line anyway, to follow the warranty. (EVO III 16g, SBR) Where can I find pics of how to install it?

What about water lines. Should I get the kit from slowboy? It would actually be LESS expensive at the dealer?

 

[FASTSPOOLINGST]

shop around for the ss line. if u are on east coast u might as well go with slowboy. they have excellent customer service, talk to mike or curt up there, they'll hook u up. Just re-use your water lines. U just need to bend the front one a bit. U might need to get some 3/8th inch fuel line to extend it too, but it all depends how good u get it to bend where it needs to be. Put your ss line and your water lines on before you drop in your turbo.

 

[TalonJohn94]

FASTSPOOLINGST: Thanks for the advice. Two more questions:

Where on the filter housing does the SS line go?

After my car has just been started up (idle a couple mins) it makes a noise as soon as boost hits. It a real fast kind of shrieking, like a real quick, repetitive metal-to-metal. Too fast and high pitched for lifter tick. Do you think this is my existing turbo bearing?

 

[FASTSPOOLINGST]

If you are still running the stock 14b on your car, and it is the original that came with the car, and u cranked up the boost with a manual boost controller. Yes, that is probably your turbo. My t-25 after being boosted to 15 psi for about a month kicked the bucket, I had the same screetching metal sound you are talking about. I can tell you a way to check it, just take off your intake pipe going to the turbo, stick your finger into the turbo inlet until you touch the turbine shaft, try to wiggle it around. If it is moving, that is pretty sure what the problem is.

 

[FASTSPOOLINGST]

If u look under neath your car, to the right of the oil filter will be some plugs that have to be tightened/loosened with an allen wrench.
Drain your oil, removed the existing plug, then screw in your fitting that will come with your SS line kit (if u get that kit, i know dsmparts gave me that part). I will post a link to what i am talking about later o.k. so u can see the pic for yourself so u are sure before u go pulling plugs out.

later bro

 

[FASTSPOOLINGST]

Here is the pic of where to put the fitting for your oil supply line.

click the link for the full install info.

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/instructions/oillineinstall.htm

Good luck, if u need anything else just halla!!!!

 

[FASTSPOOLINGST]

Buck,

Here is a pic of where u should use a 3/8" line to connect the water lines. Like i said before, I have bent my lines different and my set up looks a bit better. If u need the 3/8" line, go to your local autozone, it's only like .99 cents a foot or something. 1 ft should suffice.

Later

 

[BUCK]

That's a nice Turbo Oil Supply setup IMO, even heat shielded...

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=92552&goto=newpost

 

[TalonJohn94]

Thanks for all the advice, especially FastSpoolinGST. I think my best bet would be to relocate oil line, and re-use water lines. I thought that the water lines would be the same for the EVO III 16g, but that I should just replace them because their old. Your telling me their different?

I am just going to do a little more research before ordering everything. For example, does anyone know if FORCEDPERFORMANCE.com does the 34mm wastegate upgrade, and how much they charge?

If they did it for a reasonable price I will probably be going w/them.

 

[FASTSPOOLINGST]

my bust i fogot you have a 1g, and you don't have to change them, just maybe bend them a bit, cuz the housing is a tad bigger than a 14b, not sure, i have a 2g and i had to bend mine cuz i went from the t-25 to the evo iii. If you want the 34mm flapper mod, call up slowboyracing they do the mod and probably cheaper than forcedperformance. If FP happen to have a cheaper price on the turbo, just call up mike or curt and see if they can match it, i bet they will.

 

[tanner261]

Originally posted by dsmturboawd
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=91514

What is this in reference to? The pressure measurements I took were from a 1/8" NPT fitting tapped into the feed bolt on the cylinder head, so this is actual pressure feeding the turbo, not at the oil pump.

Modifying the pressure relief valve will not give more pressure at idle, or any point inbetween that and max pressure. It is a relief valve, not a pressure set valve. It will only alter the max pressure the system sees. A year ago, I modified my pressure relief valve to supply less pressure at 7k RPM because I thought that 120 psi of oil pressure was causing my turbo to burn oil. This is when I measured actual pressure at the cylinder head and the pressure there never exceeds 20 psi.

My engine, with the BS removed, will make 100 psi at 7k RPM on a warm engine with the relief valve unmodified. Pressure will hit 115 psi on a cold winter day at 3k RPM when the car hasn't warmed up yet. I have yet to have problems with the oil filter backing off due to too much pressure.

I was not reffering to the feed line having a small orfice, the center section itself has a small hole feeding the bearing.

 

[Suparata]

Originally posted by doug
A local DSM shop around here suggested that to me-- I may try that when I get a chance.

Oh, and RRE also recommends running the oil supply from the filter housing.

Don't even think of messing with the pressure relief valve! It won't do any good because at hot idle the valve is closed anyway. It is called "RELIEF Valve" and it's there to regulate/limit the oil pressure .

^^^Personally I think that's FAR better than running it off the Oil Filter Housing due to all Heat you pick up running across the front of the engine bay^^^

I don't think that is an issue because the line is no more hotter than the return line from the oil cooler. You can actually hold it in your hand.

Somebody was saying that he cannot get more than 20PSI oil pressure in the head. I had 30 while cruising on 100K engine with no BS. http://www.engintecs.com/gallery/album10/100OLYMP_P1010014_P1010014 . That's at 70PSI at the stock location which on the stock gauge looks like this http://www.engintecs.com/gallery/album10/100OLYMP_P1010012_P1010012 .

Now here is what I think about oil feed location:
I understand that the max pressure to the BB turbo should be limited to 60 max but isn't the max pressure limited by the size(.8mm) no matter where you get the oil from :head or oil filter housing?
What I'm saying is that I believe that the best place to supply the turbo from is the oil filter housing .
1 Amount and pressure of the oil will be decided by the size of the obstruction
2 Oil will be cooler and delivered faster than if it would be from the head
3 When the head location is used ,oil gets drained from the head when engine is not running thus priming of the head and turbo will be delayed.
Am I wrong?

 

[MNGSX]

I had my own ss line made by a hose shop that does heavy equipment and industrial hoses for my work. It goes to the oil filter adapter.

The line is ss just like the shop ones. I have no banjo fitting for the turbo end of it unlike the rre line. Banjo fittlings are restrictive. A full line ID solid 90 is less restrictive. no bend is the least I have a 45's 90s and a straight nipple. I'll use what provides the best clearance and flow. Since this is a non bb turbo I'm giving it all the oil it can take. It helps with temp too.

Something else I'm pondering.

http://www.accusump.com/acc_products/acc_turboiler.htm

But I usually don't by something I can make from parts from industrial supply stores.

I'll mount a remote pressure gauge sender to the end of the accumulator to monitor pressure.

Oil from the block feed goes thru a one way valve and into a T. The accumulator sits on the middle leg and the other to the turbo bearing.

Not only does it function as a shut down lube aid but a way to stabilize pressure a bit. The oil pressure in the line pushes back a piston against a pneumatic resistance.

Oil pressure is higher at higher rpms but drops during shifts and other off throttle conditions. The oil pump slows down alot slower than the turbo especially if the BOV is set right. Worse yet the turbo does'nt slow if you have ALS but the oil feed did. Solution? The accumulator. There is a higher force now pushing on the oil in the accumulator than input thru the check valve. So it starts dumping oil until the pressure in the lines matches the pressure thru the valve.

Since it the piston extends untill input line pressure is met on shut down it pretty much bleeds it's full capacity of oil thru the turbo bearing.

Simple and very effective.

 

[Black Talon]

This appears to be an old thread, but the deabate still seems a valid one. If the factory oil feed line (with restriction) is replaced with a free flowing SS line, that volume of oil flows to the turbo and back to the oil pan, bypassing the block entirely. Whatever restrictions that exist within the turbo itself probably are insufficient or Mitsu engineers would not have included the restriction in the 2G cars that tap the oil at the filter housing.

I don't even want to start a flame war over crankwalk theories (there is enough of those already...flame wars AND crankwalk theories), BUT a bearing should only see metal to metal contact when there is insufficient oil pressure to FLOAT the load on the bearing with a pressurized film of oil (such as at start up). Greater clutch/pressure plate pressures would CONTRIBUTE to the problem of crankwalk, but should not be the problem in itself.

With that all in mind, exploring the possibility of an oil flow problem rising from where the turbo oil flow is tapped should be of interest to those who are modifying the 4G63T. Has anyone considered changing where the oil return is introduced to the block instead of flowing it back directly to the oil pan? Would there be enough oil pressure post turbo to pump the return oil higher up in the block possibly to the 1G oil tap location or does the passage of this oil through the turbo make the reintroduction of this oil undesireable, especially to the valvetrain?

 

[BUCK]

Probably the only thing on these various Subjects EVERYBODY would agree on including me is do NOT put any restriction in Turbo Oil Return Line. :thumbdown I once proposed a post-Turbo Oil Cooler & got lit up like a firecracker!

 

[focusedrage]

^^^YES! the last thing in the universe you want is any resriction post turbo in the oil return.

 

[Black Talon]

I don't recall suggesting putting any restriction in the oil return line, I had pointed out the factory restriction in the oil feed line and had asked if there would be any benefit to plumbing the oil return back into the block somewhere, rather than straight into the oil pan.

Moot point. Thanks though for the feedback.

 

[focusedrage]

gravity is a resrticiton