OEM oil pump issue

[kp116]

Over the winter when I was doing the auto swap I replace the timing belt components along with the oil pump with a oem one because I had a top line pump in the car. I was reading that some people were having issues with the top line so I figured I would replace it. The car has been running for just over a week and the oem oil pump is now bad. I notice I had a oil leak behind the timing cover so I was checking that issue out. After taking off the timing belt I turned the pump by hand and it is very hard to turn in some spot and seems to bind up. I had the topline one in for probably over 2 years without any issues but yet the oem one only lasted a bit over a week.... doesn't make sense at all. I e-mailed extreme psi to see if they could help me out because thats who I ordered it from. Not sure if I should just put my topline back in the car or wait and see if extreme can do anything to help me out. I know the topline pump has helical gears while the oem one has straight cut. I thought the straight cut gears were better for high revving so it doesn't push the gears to the side of the case?
Anyone have any idea what could have caused this?

 

[dsmpat95]

Do you still have your balance shafts?

 

[kp116]

Do you still have your balance shafts?

Nope and I have just the stub end for the oil pump. This is the way its been for the 4 years I have owned it and never ran into a problem yet until now.

 

[dsmpat95]

You might want to check that stub. The clearance may be different for OEM to top line. I have a OEM and mine would have tight spots. I sanded it down enough so it would bind up.

 

[keltalon]

Did the pump you got from extreme psi come with the gears? or did you use the topline gears in the oem pump? You might also find this thread helpful.http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2206204 these oil pumps are very sensitive.

 

[kp116]

Did the pump you got from extreme psi come with the gears? or did you use the topline gears in the oem pump? You might also find this thread helpful.20/50 Oil in an Evo? Partially Explained - Bob Is The Oil Guy these oil pumps are very sensitive.

Wow there was a lot of good information there but as always no clear cut answer... I am running 5-30 and the car has seen up to 9k in first gear with the auto. I have been running 5-30 for as long as I have had the car and the end of last year was when I was really starting to rev it out. I have had kiggly HLA pressure regulator as well. I am still just confused why it would go out so fast but yet the topline one has lasted so long.... I wonder if it could have anything to do with the different rpm band with the auto vs the 5-speed? The auto is always up there in rpm and shifting at 8500-9000rpm.... while when I had the 5 speed it seem to drop back down in rpm quite a bit and it wasn't untill the end of last year until I was really starting to rev it out. Maybe I will have to look into using heavier weight oil for my application. I saw curt brown was recommending heavier weight oil as well...

The oil pump I bought was a brand new oem front case and oem straight cut gears.

 

[JaxTalonTSi]

Wow there was a lot of good information there but as always no clear cut answer... I am running 5-30 and the car has seen up to 9k in first gear with the auto. I have been running 5-30 for as long as I have had the car and the end of last year was when I was really starting to rev it out. I have had kiggly HLA pressure regulator as well. I am still just confused why it would go out so fast but yet the topline one has lasted so long.... I wonder if it could have anything to do with the different rpm band with the auto vs the 5-speed? The auto is always up there in rpm and shifting at 8500-9000rpm.... while when I had the 5 speed it seem to drop back down in rpm quite a bit and it wasn't untill the end of last year until I was really starting to rev it out. Maybe I will have to look into using heavier weight oil for my application. I saw curt brown was recommending heavier weight oil as well...

The oil pump I bought was a brand new oem front case and oem straight cut gears.

Did you deburr the gears before assembly? What did you pack the pump with during assembly?

 

[keltalon]

Wow there was a lot of good information there but as always no clear cut answer... I am running 5-30 and the car has seen up to 9k in first gear with the auto. I have been running 5-30 for as long as I have had the car and the end of last year was when I was really starting to rev it out. I have had kiggly HLA pressure regulator as well. I am still just confused why it would go out so fast but yet the topline one has lasted so long.... I wonder if it could have anything to do with the different rpm band with the auto vs the 5-speed? The auto is always up there in rpm and shifting at 8500-9000rpm.... while when I had the 5 speed it seem to drop back down in rpm quite a bit and it wasn't untill the end of last year until I was really starting to rev it out. Maybe I will have to look into using heavier weight oil for my application. I saw curt brown was recommending heavier weight oil as well...

The oil pump I bought was a brand new oem front case and oem straight cut gears.

Yeah it is ROFI when my oem failed I bought a toga high volume and it failed I had a topline to fail but it could have been to the fact that I swapped out the helical gears with a set of straight cut from dealer. I don't blame any of the oil pump excpt the toga crap it failed at start up! I could barley turn that piece of crap by hand but i installed it anyway big mistake. I am just as puzzled and you on why some pumps fail and some dont. I have been doing a lot of reading/research and comparing of the different pumps here is what i do know.

1. each of my failed pumps i was taching over 8000 rpm
2. never had one to fail when redline was set to 7500 rpm
3. each failure happened when the car was low on oil because of some oil leak.
4. there are big differences in the clearances of each pump because of this i have a method that i have used to hone the pump where the gears bearing section is to a mirror finish and yet to have one to fail and i am redlining at 8200rpm. I can post a video of the process
5. In each failure i was using 5 30 oil I knotice that after a hard run the oil in thin as water there fore I only run amsoil 10 40

take this info for what it is worth the oil pump issue seems to be a subject that has many theories with no definitive answer as to why some fail and others succeed.

 

[954TalonTsi]

Ive had a top line pump in mine for goin on 3 yrs now. No problems/leaks and I recently checked it while doing sek. No scours or anything, so just because other people have had problems, I wouldnt have tried to fix somethimg that wasnt broke. Just my .02 dnt shoot me.

 

[JusMX141]

Dave and Ricky have both had new Topline pumps and gears fail on them within 500 miles of installation on a new engine. In Dave's case he was at the track and caught it in time when he noticed his pressure gauge needle bouncing a little during a pass- it just leaked like hell and sent a little metal through the turbo....but Ricky's pump failure cost him an engine. Two failed new pumps from that company is enough that I'd never buy one.

Both of these guys have installed OEM pumps / cases as replacements and they're still on the car(s) to this day. Not exactly sure why your OEM pump would have failed, Kenny....that's a very rare occurrance!

 

[keltalon]

Dave and Ricky have both had new Topline pumps and gears fail on them within 500 miles of installation on a new engine. In Dave's case he was at the track and caught it in time when he noticed his pressure gauge needle bouncing a little during a pass- it just leaked like hell and sent a little metal through the turbo....but Ricky's pump failure cost him an engine. Two failed new pumps from that company is enough that I'd never buy one.

Both of these guys have installed OEM pumps / cases as replacements and they're still on the car(s) to this day. Not exactly sure why your OEM pump would have failed, Kenny....that's a very rare occurrance!

How hi are they reving the car? just curious

 

[JusMX141]

Dave's redline is around 9500....Ricky's is lower I'm sure being a G4CS stroker.

 

[keltalon]

Dave's redline is around 9500....Ricky's is lower I'm sure being a G4CS stroker.

do you know if he is using the straight cut gears or helical gears?

 

[BrokenTsi]

A timing belt that is installed too tight will wrench on the oil pump gear and cause it to crack and leak oil.

I cracked an OEM oil pump once after doing some pulls to 8500+. I re-evaluated the way I installed a timing belt and I found that I had too much tension on the tensioner pulley.

After figuring out the correct way to install it, I haven't had any issues revving out to 9k.

 

[kp116]

A timing belt that is installed too tight will wrench on the oil pump gear and cause it to crack and leak oil.

I cracked an OEM oil pump once after doing some pulls to 8500+. I re-evaluated the way I installed a timing belt and I found that I had too much tension on the tensioner pulley.

After figuring out the correct way to install it, I haven't had any issues revving out to 9k.

Mr. Peppers had mentioned this but while I was taking it apart I checked the the belt and it didn't seem too tight. I will probably get the whole thing apart today and look at it. I still doni't know what I am going to do being that I keep getting mixed answers. I still don't think it would hurt to put my top line back in but before take it apart, inspect it and clean it. I have never had a issue with it before. I might run a slightly higher 40 weight oil and see if that helps. The only thing I would be concerned about then is if the the gears are helical cut would the pressure be to high to cause the gears to push against the case at high rpm?

Thanks everyone for all your help. I just wish there was a clear cut answer to this problem.

 

[JusMX141]

do you know if he is using the straight cut gears or helical gears?

Probably helical....whatever Topline had installed in the pump when it was new. I don't know if they offer straight-cut gears or not.

 

[BrokenTsi]

Mr. Peppers had mentioned this but while I was taking it apart I checked the the belt and it didn't seem too tight. I will probably get the whole thing apart today and look at it. I still doni't know what I am going to do being that I keep getting mixed answers. I still don't think it would hurt to put my top line back in but before take it apart, inspect it and clean it. I have never had a issue with it before. I might run a slightly higher 40 weight oil and see if that helps. The only thing I would be concerned about then is if the the gears are helical cut would the pressure be to high to cause the gears to push against the case at high rpm?

Thanks everyone for all your help. I just wish there was a clear cut answer to this problem.

Measure the distance between the tensioner arm and the body of the tensioner itself. That will tell you how tight it is. I forget the specs, take a look in the manual. You should be able to re-insert the grenade pin at any time after a timing belt install.

Its one of the cons of running no balance shafts, really. Its hit or miss and you just replace it when or if it fails. A "fix" for it would be to run a machined rear balance shaft. Jackstransmissions sells a really nice one for a good price, or you can have one cut/machined locally.

With a balance shaft, the load on the gears is spread out more. With the stubby shaft, the gears and oil pump see some more stress at high rpm.

http://www.jackstransmissions.com/products/balance-shaft-machining

 

[keltalon]

Probably helical....whatever Topline had installed in the pump when it was new. I don't know if they offer straight-cut gears or not.

All topline comes with helical. so they really will hold up at high rpm.

 

[kp116]

Measure the distance between the tensioner arm and the body of the tensioner itself. That will tell you how tight it is. I forget the specs, take a look in the manual. You should be able to re-insert the grenade pin at any time after a timing belt install.

Its one of the cons of running no balance shafts, really. Its hit or miss and you just replace it when or if it fails. A "fix" for it would be to run a machined rear balance shaft. Jackstransmissions sells a really nice one for a good price, or you can have one cut/machined locally.

With a balance shaft, the load on the gears is spread out more. With the stubby shaft, the gears and oil pump see some more stress at high rpm.

Jacks Transmissions LLC — Balance shaft machining

I used to have one in the car but I was reading that a lot of people were saying to not run one because they see the bearing fail because of the high rpm's but then again there isn't any load on that bearing so why should it fail? There again just another topic that every other person says the exact opposite thing.

All topline comes with helical. so they really will hold up at high rpm.

I thought you don't want helical for high rpm because it would push itself in the case from high oil pressure but then again the article poste earlier was saying with lighter weight oil you lose pressure at high rpm.... There is just no definitive answer.

 

[keltalon]

I used to have one in the car but I was reading that a lot of people were saying to not run one because they see the bearing fail because of the high rpm's but then again there isn't any load on that bearing so why should it fail? There again just another topic that every other person says the exact opposite thing.



I thought you don't want helical for high rpm because it would push itself in the case from high oil pressure but then again the article poste earlier was saying with lighter weight oil you lose pressure at high rpm.... There is just no definitive answer.

I am using straight cut not helical. I personally don't trust helical because of increased thrust load on front case but if its working for this guy then I guess that's alright with him. here is mitsu tsb that went out concerning the gear change I thought this would be helpful http://www.galantvr4.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Board=UBB2&Number=263785&page=2&fpart=1
DATE:
November, 1992

MODEL:
See Below

This bulletin supersedes Technical Service Bulletin # TSB-92-11-002 REVISION (Dated June, 1992) and Advance Technical information Notice # ATIN-92-11-001 (Dated July 31, 1992). Please discard the superseded TSB and ATIN.

New information includes:

- Deletion of 1983-89 2.0L Truck from Vehicles Affected list.

- Addition of new drive gear for 1983 Cordia/Tredia (1.8L and 2.0L, SOHC), 1985-87 Galant (2.4L, SOHC), 1987-90 Van/Wagon (2.4L, SOHC), and 1990-92 Truck (2.4L, SOHC).


PURPOSE

This Technical Service Bulletin describes a new oil pump/gear assembly that may reduce engine noise on some 1.6, 1.8, 2.0, and 2.4 liter 4G6-Series engines.

VEHICLES AFFECTED

1983-88 Cordia/Tredia (1.8L and 2.0L, SOHC)
1987-90 Van/Wagon (2.4L, SOHC)
1985-87 Galant (2.4L, SOHC)
1989-92 Galant (All)
1989-92 Mirage (1.6L, DOHC)
1990-92 Eclipse (2.0L, DOHC)
1990-92 Truck (2.4L, SOHC)
1992 Expo 2.4L, SOHC)


DESCRIPTION

On some vehicles equipped with the 4G6-Series engine, you may receive customer complaints of a high-pitched whining noise coming from the engine. This noise most likely originates from the engine's oil pump and is particularly noticeable during cold starting.







To help reduce the noise, a new oil pump is available. The new pump has helical gears as opposed to the former pump's spur gears. In addition, modifications were made to the engine front case to accommodate the redesigned gears.

All 4G6-Series engines built from 6/11/91 with identification code LX8939 and up, have been assembled using the new oil pump gear set and front case assembly.

When installing the new oil pump on a vehicle, be sure to replace the drive gear, driven gear, and front case as a set. These parts are not interchangeable with the former ones.

For information concerning the replacement of the engine oil pump, refer to the applicable service manual or engine overhaul manual.







PARTS INFORMATION

WARRANTY INFORMATION
Position Code: 121010.
Use standard warranty procedures.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rance lives here...
Founder of Sold out to BMW Cru.
click

 

[kp116]

So the cases are different also from the helical to straight cut gears? This is just getting even more confusing

 

[keltalon]

Well for what it is worth this is how I solved my oil pump failures after destoying 4 pumps. Since I fabricate corian counter tops and some tops calls for a high gloss finish I decided to use this technique on my oil pump and oil pump gears to kind of smooth the surface finish. So far so good. I also swithched to amsoil high zinc 10w40 high performance oil. I had two oil pumps sitting in my shop one with helical gears and the other straight cut gears. I polished both pumps and both set of gears front and back face as well as shaft to a mirror finish and ended up installing the straight cut one into the car No more issues no oil leaks anywhere The place where I dynoed my car said that my dsm was the first that he has seen that has no oil residue anywhere on the engine. here are some pics of the polished product.

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[nfernotalon]

The problem I'm having is when I tighten the stubby shaft bolt even just a little it stops the pump from turning. Anybody have this problem?

 

[keltalon]

The problem I'm having is when I tighten the stubby shaft bolt even just a little it stops the pump from turning. Anybody have this problem?

Do you mean big gear? Studdy shaft shouldn't keep pump from turning unless you have the gear backwards

 

[nfernotalon]

Do you mean big gear? Studdy shaft shouldn't keep pump from turning unless you have the gear backwards

Yea the bolt that holds the stubby shaft in place where the castle plug goes. Can't torque it down because it stops the pump from turning and both dots on the gears line up perfect.

Should Also add it's a new front case with gears and I used my bs shaft and oem bolt for a stubby shaft.