No start. New plugs, wires, fuel, etc.

[chris712vt]

Car - 95 420a Turbo'd. See profile for the extent of my modifications/parts.

Original problem - car had been running poorly for the past couple weeks... misfiring pretty bad as soon as I hit boost or any time the RPMs got above 4k (even without boost), and it would bog or misfire when starting from a stop in 1st or if it was under too much load in a higher gear with low RPMs. A few days ago I finally had a chance to go out and get new plugs and stock-replacement wires. Gapped them and installed. Car ran amazingly again! I cranked the boost back up and it was lighting the tires up all the way through 1st and 2nd. Felt great to be running normal again... then another problem. Read on...

New problem - a couple days later, since it's 60 degrees in December, I decided to wash it. I also sprayed degreaser here and there under the hood and rinsed it down with the hose. Some water pooled up on the valve cover and apparently leaked down onto the spark plugs. I didn't notice this at first, but when I took it out for a drive after I was done washing it it started fine and ran strong. When I got home I popped the hood and heard a simmering sound and tracked it down to 4 small pools of water boiling in the spark plug wells.

I pulled the plugs, the little bit of water drained down into the cylinders, but I highly doubt it was enough to hydro-lock or cause any problem (it couldn't have if the engine cranks and turns over just fine). I dried the plugs thuroughly, put them back in, and then it wouldn't start. It cranks and turns over just won't fire up.

I took the plugs out and left them to dry out of the engine overnight, also left the spark plug wells uncovered to dry out as much as they could. Next day, put them back in, still won't start. Plugs are now soaked in fuel from cranking the engine. So I went and got another new set of plugs, gapped them, still won't start. And all of this is a on a fully charged battery or jumping with another car.

I know the coil pack is completely sealed, but I've heard they can fail after being put through sudden temperature changes. If I drove it, the cooled it with the hose when rinsing the engine bay out (doubt a little spraying with the hose cooled it that much), then drove it again... maaaybe I damaged the coil pack. So I replaced it with a new one. Still the same damn problem, cranks but won't fire up.

I can smell fuel after doing a lot of cranking. I can see fresh gas on the plugs when I pull them out. So I've got FUEL. I've been through 3 sets of plugs, two of which were brand new. New wires. New coil pack. I pulled one plug at a time and grounded it on the valve cover while cranking to verify the plug was firing, and it did. So I have SPARK too. I even disconnected my charge pipe from the throttle body to make sure there were no restrictions and I was getting AIR. The starter keeps turning it over just fine... it just won't get up and go. I have everything you need for combustion, so why won't it start???

What could be the issue? I haven't done or changed anything since it ran perfect the other day. Just rinsed out the engine bay, took it for a drive AFTER rinsing it, and then it won't start anymore.

BTW, when I turn the key to the on position, my CEL blinks 1_2 and 5_5 and disappears. Those I believe are retarded timing and no rear O2. Timing may be from my adjustable cam gears, but they have been at that setting for 2 years. And the rear O2 is because I made a custom exhaust with no cat. I've had the CEL on and off for a couple years now, nothing new, but it's worth noting.

 

[ds10591]

idn if this will help but i had some what the same problem with not being able to start my car it turned out there was some sort of kill switch under my dash i had to hold in and start the car at the same time i hope this helps good luck

 

[chris712vt]

Kill switch? Hmm, I have never heard of anything like that. Thanks.

 

[chris712vt]

EDITed the original post to update the story. This post doesn't matter now. Weeeee

Starter is turning the engine over just fine...
Plenty of fuel, I can smell it and see it...
I watched the plugs spark, new plugs, wires, and coil...
No shortage of air...

How does air + fuel + spark + cranking not equal combustion? What else can I do? The laws of physics don't apply between Christmas and New Years.

 

[VTEC_THIS]

Compression test. If your car has spark and fuel and the timing is correct and it's still not starting it could be low compression.

You really shouldn't rinse your engine bay like that, you can run into all different problems like you now see. If you need to clean it just use simple green and a rag. I would also check any sensors that could have got wet and would prevent the car from starting (cas, cps, coolant, etc).

 

[chris712vt]

Thanks, I won't be spraying a hose under the hood anymore. I'll start with a compression test if I can find one to use...

 

[chris712vt]

Ok tried something new. Took the plugs and coil pack back off. Unplugged the fuel pump harness. Cranked it like that to clear any fuel/crap out of the cylinders.

Put the old coil pack back on, cleaned all the plugs thuroughly, and set them all on the valve cover. (it's dark outside) Cranked it and it was like a little light show with all the spark plugs shooting off. So my old coil pack is just fine, I'm happy I can return the new one I just bought, and all spark plugs are good.

Put all the plugs back in place, left the fuel pump off, and cranked. Heard a couple pops, then it seemed like the car wanted to start up. Haven't heard that sound at all the past couple days. So I reach back and plug the fuel pump in as I'm cranking... the "almost starting" sounds die off. Unplug the pump and it starts to pick up again as the plugs burn the last bit of fuel in the cylinders. Plug the pump back in and it dies off again.

Weird... you would think it would starve and die off without fuel, then fire up when I plug the fuel pump in. But it's backwards.

I still plan to do a comp. test, just need to go buy one tomorrow I guess. But this is interesting with the fuel vs no fuel thing. I may turn my fuel pressure down and see if it fires up under leaner conditions. Still doesn't make sense if that ends up being a solution, but if it starts I'll be happy.

 

[1990talontsi]

check ## coolant temp sensor
if its out of wack it will throw a bunch of fuel into ## cylinders when ## trying to start it
that would explain why its almost starting with the fuel pump off

 

[chris712vt]

Hmm coolant temp sensor? I can look into it. Why does it cause it to add more fuel though?



Anyway, I showed it who's boss! . Got it running, finallly.

After my last post where it was kinda starting to fire up when I cut all fuel, but dying when I plugged the fuel pump back in, I decided to drop fuel pressure waaay down and see if leaning it out would allow it to fire up. Dropped it to like 10psi and did the same thing with cranking with no fuel, then plugging it in and trying to get the engine going. It was really hesitant but I managed to get it to start chugging one good time, opened the throttle all the way, added fuel and it came to life!

It wanted to die but I held it at like 2-3k for 30 seconds or so, then it could idle on its own. Went back and slowly raised fuel pressure back up to normal. Occasionally it would start to die out but then come back. I let it idle for 10 minutes or so, then it seemed fine. Took it for a gentle test ride, no problems, then gave it some boost, spun all the way through 1st and 2nd and it was off to the races in 3rd. Back to normal again! I have no idea what was going on with it, but for now it is ok. And it restarted several times after I shut it down. We'll see how it's running tomorrow now, but if it continues to be fine I guess I'll just go with it. No sign of why it wouldn't start, what the problem was, or why that solution got it to fire up again... but as long as it's back I'm happy.

Hahaha I hate DSMs (always broken) but I can't let go. I've been so close to throwing in the towel with this thing lately but every time it's running strong it sucks be back in and I forget about how something always goes wrong with it every month... or week.

 

[rstare]

Good to hear you got it running. You have been having countless issues with that car...
Just for future reference; the CLT (Coolant Temp Sensor) has been known to cause a bunch of funky problems when it's bad. In regards to fuel, look at your wideband when you start the car, it will be richer then once it gets warmed up.
The air in a cold engine is more dense requiring more fuel then when it's at operating temp.

 

[RedTalon95]

Chances are if you go to start it up this morning, it will do the same thing it's been doing. Your coolant temperature sensor is either dead or came disconnected. Once the car warms up it will run fine, you will just have a hell of a time starting it in colder weather.

 

[1990talontsi]

pretty sure i already told him that ....

 

[chris712vt]

Thanks for the help guys. Like I said I will look into the coolant temp sensor, especially if I keep having problems. But today I started it just fine and it was freezing cold outside. Seems to be back to normal... I don't understand what the issue was but I appreciate your help.

 

[95GsTreez]

Coolant temp sensor is one of the sensors that are used in closed loop. Once the engine tempature reaches its set spec. its supposed to send information to the coputer that its okay now to turn to closed loop mode. Open loop is for start up when the engine is cold and is generally richer to help the arm up cycle.

 

[grantman10]

sorry to hijack this thread, but my car just stopped starting as well. It is getting fuel, and spark, and the compression was good when i checked it in the fall, something like 145 150 145 135 cold.

The car has started perfectly fine throughout the whole winter, and one day it just stopped. It turns over and sometimes sounds like it wants to start, but no luck. I checked the connection to the two sensors in the thermostat housing and they are bueno.

Is there anyway i can test the temp sensor without a logger? It figures i just sold mine and this happens...

Is there anything else it could be? Like I said, the car had no problem starting throughout the winter, i never even had to give it gas (yes, i know it's efi). Wierd.

Also, do they carry the CTS at advance auto or autozone? I would rather test it before i replace it, because I have two 2g gsxs that don't run, and NO money...