no power to starter

[blowngst]

hey guys sorry i had to post another thread. it seems my problem is slightly different now. i did search a good bit but i think i need a little more insight. so my car does not start i get a click from the center console and i hear fuel in the engine bay. battery tested good starter tested good. i pop start the car. i used a tester to the starter cables and the little signal wire (black and yellow) is getting full power! im not sure what else i should look for and just need some more tips on what it could possibly be. the starter relay also seems to be fine!

 

[blowngst]

well everytime the car does not start i go out and loosen the starter bolts and shake the hell out of it then it starts like 2 more times then i have to repeat it again.

 

[steve]

Sounds like either a bad starter or grounding problems.

 

[dangler]

Yeah, I guess if there's nothing wrong with the surface where the starter mounts, and the bolts were tight, I'd say starter. Also, thanks for the links to the manuals Steve. I couldn't find them anywhere online.

 

[steve]

Make sure the ground wire to the bellhousing it clean and not corroded too. Same for the connections at the battery.

 

[krummel21]

I am having a very similar problem. Which one of these is the starter relay? The only place I saw a black/red and yellow/black wire under the red 10 amp fuse.

 

[97dsmtsi]

well everytime the car does not start i go out and loosen the starter bolts and shake the hell out of it then it starts like 2 more times then i have to repeat it again.

i think its the brushes going on you. rebuild it. but for $20 more u can get a new one im having trouble to when i start the car it starts weak and the battery is new but i still took it to the shop and they say its good so i don't know. but if the brushes are bad it will lose power to the starter.

 

[steve]

If I'm reading the 2G FSM correctly the starter relay is behind/below the radio and the big relay in the upper right of your picture is the theft alarm starter relay.

The wires are black/red (power to the relay) black/yellow (not yellow/black, power to the starter solenoid). The theft alarm relay winds up being in parallel with the CSS or in front of the power to the starter relay on an AT. There is a black/red wire to one of those fuses but it's not the one we are talking about.

 

[blowngst]

it turns out it was the starter guys thanks for everyones help. krummel21 i believe the fuse relay on the 2nd gen is in the center console i know on the first gen its under the steering wheel to the left and its the middle relay.

 

[97dsmtsi]

you should tag my post as helpful. glade u got it going..

 

[krummel21]

I followed your directions up top for figuring out if its a wiring problem or a starter problem. Everything checks fine till I get to tep 3.

I checked the starter signal wire while being cranked and it was only putting out 1.5v where as the starter hot wire was seeing 11.5v. What would cause this?

 

[97dsmtsi]

I followed your directions up top for figuring out if its a wiring problem or a starter problem. Everything checks fine till I get to tep 3.

I checked the starter signal wire while being cranked and it was only putting out 1.5v where as the starter hot wire was seeing 11.5v. What would cause this?

relay... unplug the signal wire and hook up a wire to that and run it to the + on the battery if it works then its the relay or the clutch safety switch.

 

[dsmornothing]

relay... unplug the signal wire and hook up a wire to that and run it to the + on the battery if it works then its the relay or the clutch safety switch.

Wow finally someone says clutch safety switch, i just found this thread and knew right away what it probably was because i had the same problem a while back!

 

[DeadlyScone]

You jumper across pins 3 and 4 of the relay socket. From the FSM it looks like the incoming signal is black/yellow from the ignition switch on pin 4 and the output from the relay is black/red on pin 3 which changes later to a black/yellow wire at C-59 before going on to the starter solenoid.

It looks like the other two wires are black/white to the relay coil on pin 2 and green/black from pin 1 to the CSS.

I have a few questions:

1.
Does the black/white wire have anything to do with the starter relay function? on my car w/ the relay out, I see 12v on the white/black and yellow/black. With the relay in and key in start pos the green/black is not grounded and yet i don't see 12v coming from the red/black and my relay is good.

2.
Jumping the red/blk and yellow/blk wont cause any problems with too much/not enough amps? If not, are there any set backs or other problems it may cause?

 

[DeadlyScone]

This is the problem i am having right now.

Red/blk - no voltage due to what ever issue there is.
yellow/blk - has continuity to the other end of the wire, no shorts. 12v key start
white/black - 12v key start
green/black - not grounded.

All this is right according to the diagram and yet it still won't start. just clicks which means the relay is stopping the starter from activating.

What is the minimum amps needed to have the car start? could amperage have something to do with this?

PS: i can jump the yellow/blk and red/black and it will start, although it cranks slow it does start right up.

 

[steve]

I have a few questions:

1. Does the black/white wire have anything to do with the starter relay function?
On my car w/ the relay out, I see 12v on the white/black and yellow/black. With the relay in and key in start pos the green/black is not grounded and yet I don't see 12v coming from the red/black and my relay is good.

2. Jumping the red/blk and yellow/blk wont cause any problems with too much/not enough amps?
If not, are there any set backs or other problems it may cause?

Red/blk - no voltage due to what ever issue there is.
yellow/blk - has continuity to the other end of the wire, no shorts. 12v key start
white/black - 12v key start
green/black - not grounded.

All this is right according to the diagram and yet it still won't start. just clicks which means the relay is stopping the starter from activating.

What is the minimum amps needed to have the car start? could amperage have something to do with this?

PS: I can jump the yellow/blk and red/black and it will start, although it cranks slow it does start right up.

Just to make sure, your car has a manual transmission. The automatics work differently.

From my earlier post:

The incoming signal from the ignition switch (ST) is on the black/yellow (pin 4) and the output from the relay is black/red (pin 3) which changes later to a black/yellow wire at C-59 before going on to the starter solenoid.

The other two wires are for the relay solenoid coil, the black/white to the relay coil (pin 2) from the ignition switch (ST) and green/black (pin) 1 to the CSS.

The way the starter safety relay works is both the relay and the CSS are normally closed. The two contacts are normally connected.

With the ignition switch in the OFF position the ST output should be grounded so you see ground at pin 2 and 4. When you turn the ignition switch to the START position battery voltage shows up at pin 2 and 4 of the relay.

One side of the CSS is grounded so it provides ground to pin 1 of the relay and current flows through the relay coil that connected between pin 1 and 2, causing the relay contacts to open and disconnect relay pins 3 and 4 so that battery voltage doesn't reach the starter solenoid.

On cars with the factory theft alarm there is additional circuits used to bypass the CSS and ground the starter relay coil pin 1 so it doesn't allow the ignition switch signal to the starter solenoid.

I don't see a specification for the current draw of the starter solenoid. I don't expect it to be more than 10A given the size of the wire connected to the S terminal. The starter motor on the other hand draws 90A and the voltage shouldn't drop below 11v.

You state that the green/black wire isn't grounded. This isn't normal, is the CSS disconnected?

In thread http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/mai...ssue-clicks-does-nothing-2.html#post153073886 you have the terminals mismarked.

Is the relay clicking during your testing?

If the starter is cranking slow you need to make sure your battery is changed up. That the battery cables are uncorroded and tightly attached to clean connections, that the starter is also clean and the mounting points to the bellhousing are too.

 

[DeadlyScone]

Just to make sure, your car has a manual transmission. The automatics work differently.

From my earlier post:

The incoming signal from the ignition switch (ST) is on the black/yellow (pin 4) and the output from the relay is black/red (pin 3) which changes later to a black/yellow wire at C-59 before going on to the starter solenoid.

The other two wires are for the relay solenoid coil, the black/white to the relay coil (pin 2) from the ignition switch (ST) and green/black (pin) 1 to the CSS.

The way the starter safety relay works is both the relay and the CSS are normally closed. The two contacts are normally connected.

1.[With the ignition switch in the OFF position the ST output should be grounded so you see ground at pin 2 and 4. When you turn the ignition switch to the START position battery voltage shows up at pin 2 and 4 of the relay. ]

One side of the CSS is grounded so it provides ground to pin 1 of the relay and current flows through the relay coil that connected between pin 1 and 2, causing the relay contacts to open and disconnect relay pins 3 and 4 so that battery voltage doesn't reach the starter solenoid.

On cars with the factory theft alarm there is additional circuits used to bypass the CSS and ground the starter relay coil pin 1 so it doesn't allow the ignition switch signal to the starter solenoid.

I don't see a specification for the current draw of the starter solenoid. I don't expect it to be more than 10A given the size of the wire connected to the S terminal. The starter motor on the other hand draws 90A and the voltage shouldn't drop below 11v.

2.[You state that the green/black wire isn't grounded. This isn't normal, is the CSS disconnected?]

3.[In thread http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/mai...ssue-clicks-does-nothing-2.html#post153073886 you have the terminals mismarked. ]

4.[Is the relay clicking during your testing?]

5.[If the starter is cranking slow you need to make sure your battery is changed up. That the battery cables are uncorroded and tightly attached to clean connections, that the starter is also clean and the mounting points to the bellhousing are too.]

1. I can't remember if pin 2 or 4 had continuity to ground with the key off. But they do have 12v (11v) with the key in the start position.

2. The green/blk should be grounded with the clutch pressed in? I tried both grounded and not grounded and no dice. My clutch switch is working properly then if clutch pressed = grounded, depressed = not grounded.

3. That was before i knew what i was looking at in the wiring diagrams I understand them better now.

4. The relay clicks when i test it.

5. Supposedly my battery is a 6yr battery, it has 2-3 years left on it but i know it's garbage.

 

[steve]

1. I can't remember if pin 2 or 4 had continuity to ground with the key off. But they do have 12v (11v) with the key in the start position.

2. The green/blk should be grounded with the clutch pressed in? I tried both grounded and not grounded and no dice. My clutch switch is working properly then if clutch pressed = grounded, depressed = not grounded.

3. That was before i knew what i was looking at in the wiring diagrams I understand them better now.

4. The relay clicks when i test it.

5. Supposedly my battery is a 6yr battery, it has 2-3 years left on it but i know it's garbage.

1A pins 2 and 4 are connected to the same wires so you sould always see the same thing at both of them.

2A Are you sure you have the CSS, because your results are backward. The CSS is a normally closed switch and connected to ground. So when the clutch is not pressed the green/black wire is grounded and causes the relay to activate and click. When the clutch is pressed in the CSS opens, the green/black wire floats to battery voltage, and the relay doesn't click.

4A Something has to be completing the circuit on the coil for the relay to activate.

5A Measuring the battery voltage at rest and while cranking will indicate if the battery is charged and any good. The point here was to figure out why the starter was cranking slowly. A bad battery is one possible cause.

 

[DeadlyScone]

4A Something has to be completing the circuit on the coil for the relay to activate.

This is what i'am confused on. As long as green/black does not have continuity to ground during starting and provided that there is 12v on yl/bk and wh/bk, the red/black to the starter is all good, it should start correct?

Un-plugging the clutchSw works to solve the faulty switch issue correct? That's what i have understood.

I am honestly at a loss of ideas.

 

[steve]

This is what i'am confused on. As long as green/black does not have continuity to ground during starting and provided that there is 12v on yl/bk and wh/bk, the red/black to the starter is all good, it should start correct?

If you have 11v or more at the black/red wire at the relay and at the starter while the switch is in the START position the problem isn't here. The next step in the chain is the starter and it's connections.

Un-plugging the clutchSw works to solve the faulty switch issue correct? That's what i have understood.

Unplugging the CSS will resolve a bad CSS but won't fix a raft of other problems.

 

[DeadlyScone]

If you have 11v or more at the black/red wire at the relay and at the starter while the switch is in the START position the problem isn't here. The next step in the chain is the starter and it's connections.



Unplugging the CSS will resolve a bad CSS but won't fix a raft of other problems.

Sorry, i worded that funny. I only get 11v at the yellow/black and white/black. The red/black that runs to c-59 then to the starter is in good condition but no voltage.