eagle93tsi
10+ Year Contributor
- 39
- 0
- Jul 16, 2011
-
Cambridge,
Massachusetts
Sorry if this is long, I am new to this forum and I want to let you know how I got to where I am and my questions. I have not yet found a similar situation or answers to my questions in other posts.
My car is a stock 1993 Eagle Talon TSI with 140,000 miles. I bought the car new and for much of its life it was regularly maintained by a great local family owned Eagle/Jeep dealer till Chrysler forced them out of business. Since then I have tried the replacement Chrysler dealer and a Mitsubishi/Chrysler dealer with less that desirable results. I was driving the car fairly regularly as my preferred vehicle, second car 99 Jeep Cherokee, until about 1 years ago.
My long saga started last winter. I was driving back from a friends 50 miles away on a very cold night, 5 deg F. The engine temperature never came up for the whole trip, Stuck thermostat was my conclusion. I let the car sit till spring as I have been busy at work and was trying to figure out where to get the work done. It was time for the timing belt and water pump to be done as well. I ended up taking it to a local gas station AAA recommended and recommended by several friends. They had worked on similar cars in the past so I had them do the work. They did replace both timing belts, tensioner and idler pulley.
The car ran fine for a 100 mile highway trip and an couple days of commuting. Then it began to surge horrendously, almost undrivable. At this point I decided that I wanted to get back into working on cars. When I bought the Talon I was doing some of my own work on my AMC Eagle wagon, engine rebuild, transmission and transfer case rebuild. I had many of the tools needed and the factory service manuals for the Talon, but not much time or knowledge about turbo control systems.
I started reading forums to understand what else I needed. I picked up a palm based logger from 1glink.com to see if there were any codes and what I could learn. I found Terry's Talon Troubleshooting Tips #3 - Fast Idle (aka. Idle Surge) and http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/191137-how-fix-your-idle-surge-problem.html.
I started with the simple stuff. Changed the plugs and wires, no change. Then I did a compression check. 160 to 185 across the cylinders. Well above the minimum, but the spread is too wide, I am assuming it is carbon build up. Then I jumped to looking at the IAC as it was original and very common failure item in the forums, it had failed. I replaced it with some improvement. It was running just as rich and unstable with the throttle closed switch disconnected or not.
Next I bought a boost leak tester. There were leaks on the intercooler where the hoses attached, fixed these. The Injectors seals failed as well, replaced them and the PCV and fuel filter. The BISS was also leaking. Long ago one of the not so good dealers said I needed a new throttle body, but could not get one nor would repair mine. So I sent the throttle body off to throttlebodys.com for a rebuild. This should clear up any throttle shaft & BISS leaks and FIAV issues. I also cleaned up the EGR valve and the EGR diaphragm is good, no leaks. These all improved things a bit, but is was still not well. The car was not running anywhere near as rich, but still not not happy. I checked the compression again with the same results. I was assuming that the timing was OK as the compression was good. There is still a leak into the crankcase I have not figured out yet. I am hoping it is the PCV.
The rebuild had the BISS turned all the way in, so I went to adjust the BISS. This is where I started to get concerned, this was the first time I had tried to check the timing. I was assuming it OK as the compression was good. I think I was doing it correctly as the Palm logger was my Tachometer and should ground the needed pin in the diagnostic port and I grounded the single pin in the unused connector just behind the battery. The timing was way advanced 10 to 20 degrees moving around at least 5 degrees. I could not get the idle stable it would go up with opening the BISS. My conclusion was the base timing was not done correctly or the timing jumped. Time to check the timing belt.
I have now pulled all the covers to get to the timing belt and the timing marks do not line up. When I turn the engine over by hand at some points I have to work hard to keep it from wanting to turn backwards on its own, I do not know if this means anything. It confuses me. This is my first timing belt effort. Is this the miss timed balance shaft at work?
The cam timing marks are close, I think there may be 1 tooth too many between the gears. The upper line is just below the center timing marks and the lower one connects the outer timing marks.
The crank/balance is somewhat more troubling. I was very confused until I reread Timing Belt VFAQ (Timing Belt TSB - ENHANCED). The figure it has for the timing marks for a 1993 is very different from my FSM. The car is set close to the 1993 details in the post, but not quite right.
The oil pump sprocket appears to be off one tooth, red circle. The balance shaft seems to be off by 2 teeth, orange circle. The crank appears to be off two teeth. The engine spins fine by hand so I hope that nothing has collided.
In case it matters, I think it was 10 years ago the head was reworked, I forget the reason. About 2 years ago the ECU was replaced with a rebuilt one from Motoguys. Another poor experience with the Chrysler/Mitsubishi dealer where I had to get the parts to get the car fixed, they could not find them.
Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to provide all the details I could as I am still learning and not sure what detail may be the one to not leave out. I am not sure when I can get to work on the car again, but I want to start formulating my next set of actions.
I am interested in any advice or suggestions anyone may have on what I should consider doing next.
The timing belt is not set correctly, how bad is it? I am hoping that it is not so far off that damage could have been caused. This is my conclusion from the posts I have read so far and the last compression test with solid numbers. Nothing appears to be hitting when I spin it by hand.
My thoughts for going forward is to reuse the belts and reset their position. They have less than 20 hours on them. It looks like if I took off the main timing belt and turned the crank clock wise to the timing mark the balance shaft would be back on mark. If not I would loosen the tensioner and reset the timing.
For the main timing belt I plan to reset the position of each gear so that all of the timing marks are back in position. For the cam gears, twisting the one on the right counter clockwise and the one on the left clockwise. This will bring all of the marks in line. The oil pump needs to be turned clock wise to the timing mark. Then the timing belt can then be reinstalled following the instructions in the VFAQ. This should get the static timing back to where it should be.
With the cam shafts at the timing marks all the valves should all be closed so this would also be a good time to look for any other boost leaks, correct? I am hoping to solve the surge problem with all of this. Once the timing is correct then I can reset the BISS and hopefully be done. I want to get back to driving the Talon as it is more fun to drive and gets better gas mileage than my Jeep.
My car is a stock 1993 Eagle Talon TSI with 140,000 miles. I bought the car new and for much of its life it was regularly maintained by a great local family owned Eagle/Jeep dealer till Chrysler forced them out of business. Since then I have tried the replacement Chrysler dealer and a Mitsubishi/Chrysler dealer with less that desirable results. I was driving the car fairly regularly as my preferred vehicle, second car 99 Jeep Cherokee, until about 1 years ago.
My long saga started last winter. I was driving back from a friends 50 miles away on a very cold night, 5 deg F. The engine temperature never came up for the whole trip, Stuck thermostat was my conclusion. I let the car sit till spring as I have been busy at work and was trying to figure out where to get the work done. It was time for the timing belt and water pump to be done as well. I ended up taking it to a local gas station AAA recommended and recommended by several friends. They had worked on similar cars in the past so I had them do the work. They did replace both timing belts, tensioner and idler pulley.
The car ran fine for a 100 mile highway trip and an couple days of commuting. Then it began to surge horrendously, almost undrivable. At this point I decided that I wanted to get back into working on cars. When I bought the Talon I was doing some of my own work on my AMC Eagle wagon, engine rebuild, transmission and transfer case rebuild. I had many of the tools needed and the factory service manuals for the Talon, but not much time or knowledge about turbo control systems.
I started reading forums to understand what else I needed. I picked up a palm based logger from 1glink.com to see if there were any codes and what I could learn. I found Terry's Talon Troubleshooting Tips #3 - Fast Idle (aka. Idle Surge) and http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/191137-how-fix-your-idle-surge-problem.html.
I started with the simple stuff. Changed the plugs and wires, no change. Then I did a compression check. 160 to 185 across the cylinders. Well above the minimum, but the spread is too wide, I am assuming it is carbon build up. Then I jumped to looking at the IAC as it was original and very common failure item in the forums, it had failed. I replaced it with some improvement. It was running just as rich and unstable with the throttle closed switch disconnected or not.
Next I bought a boost leak tester. There were leaks on the intercooler where the hoses attached, fixed these. The Injectors seals failed as well, replaced them and the PCV and fuel filter. The BISS was also leaking. Long ago one of the not so good dealers said I needed a new throttle body, but could not get one nor would repair mine. So I sent the throttle body off to throttlebodys.com for a rebuild. This should clear up any throttle shaft & BISS leaks and FIAV issues. I also cleaned up the EGR valve and the EGR diaphragm is good, no leaks. These all improved things a bit, but is was still not well. The car was not running anywhere near as rich, but still not not happy. I checked the compression again with the same results. I was assuming that the timing was OK as the compression was good. There is still a leak into the crankcase I have not figured out yet. I am hoping it is the PCV.
The rebuild had the BISS turned all the way in, so I went to adjust the BISS. This is where I started to get concerned, this was the first time I had tried to check the timing. I was assuming it OK as the compression was good. I think I was doing it correctly as the Palm logger was my Tachometer and should ground the needed pin in the diagnostic port and I grounded the single pin in the unused connector just behind the battery. The timing was way advanced 10 to 20 degrees moving around at least 5 degrees. I could not get the idle stable it would go up with opening the BISS. My conclusion was the base timing was not done correctly or the timing jumped. Time to check the timing belt.
I have now pulled all the covers to get to the timing belt and the timing marks do not line up. When I turn the engine over by hand at some points I have to work hard to keep it from wanting to turn backwards on its own, I do not know if this means anything. It confuses me. This is my first timing belt effort. Is this the miss timed balance shaft at work?
The cam timing marks are close, I think there may be 1 tooth too many between the gears. The upper line is just below the center timing marks and the lower one connects the outer timing marks.
You must be logged in to view this image or video.
The crank/balance is somewhat more troubling. I was very confused until I reread Timing Belt VFAQ (Timing Belt TSB - ENHANCED). The figure it has for the timing marks for a 1993 is very different from my FSM. The car is set close to the 1993 details in the post, but not quite right.
You must be logged in to view this image or video.
The oil pump sprocket appears to be off one tooth, red circle. The balance shaft seems to be off by 2 teeth, orange circle. The crank appears to be off two teeth. The engine spins fine by hand so I hope that nothing has collided.
In case it matters, I think it was 10 years ago the head was reworked, I forget the reason. About 2 years ago the ECU was replaced with a rebuilt one from Motoguys. Another poor experience with the Chrysler/Mitsubishi dealer where I had to get the parts to get the car fixed, they could not find them.
Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to provide all the details I could as I am still learning and not sure what detail may be the one to not leave out. I am not sure when I can get to work on the car again, but I want to start formulating my next set of actions.
I am interested in any advice or suggestions anyone may have on what I should consider doing next.
The timing belt is not set correctly, how bad is it? I am hoping that it is not so far off that damage could have been caused. This is my conclusion from the posts I have read so far and the last compression test with solid numbers. Nothing appears to be hitting when I spin it by hand.
My thoughts for going forward is to reuse the belts and reset their position. They have less than 20 hours on them. It looks like if I took off the main timing belt and turned the crank clock wise to the timing mark the balance shaft would be back on mark. If not I would loosen the tensioner and reset the timing.
For the main timing belt I plan to reset the position of each gear so that all of the timing marks are back in position. For the cam gears, twisting the one on the right counter clockwise and the one on the left clockwise. This will bring all of the marks in line. The oil pump needs to be turned clock wise to the timing mark. Then the timing belt can then be reinstalled following the instructions in the VFAQ. This should get the static timing back to where it should be.
With the cam shafts at the timing marks all the valves should all be closed so this would also be a good time to look for any other boost leaks, correct? I am hoping to solve the surge problem with all of this. Once the timing is correct then I can reset the BISS and hopefully be done. I want to get back to driving the Talon as it is more fun to drive and gets better gas mileage than my Jeep.
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