modify the maf= bad idea

[Mystikal_1788]

i was thinking was modifying the maf a bad idea- i did and i also modded the bcs and now my car runs like shiet has anyone else had probs from doing this 2 simple mods?

 

[Tom N]

http://www.dsm.org/vendors.epl
http://www.groupbuycenter.com/
http://mw.dsm.org/ Reginal club
http://www.knight-rider.org/mn-dsm/ minnesota club (dont know how good it is)

Let mw know and take it easy on it till you get this fixed just in case it is over boosting. you dont want to damage the motor.

 

[Mystikal_1788]

k hopefully i can get the pod in today so i can hook up the guage and see what exactly it is doing - i will post new stuff tonight at 11:00 when i work - are u gonna be on

 

[Tom N]

Originally posted by Mystikal_1788
k hopefully i can get the pod in today so i can hook up the guage and see what exactly it is doing - i will post new stuff tonight at 11:00 when i work - are u gonna be on

yes but it wont be till around 2:30 -3:00am est when i get off work.

 

[Mystikal_1788]

well i work from 11pm to 7 am so i will be on all the time from 11 to 7

well i will inform you then if ya care i will take it easy on the boosting catch ya later

 

[Quacylla]

"So my finally diagnosis is that with the lower chamber removed, at low airflow rates the air would easily flow through the "hole" and hardly any of it would go through the MAF counter, as a result, I had all of the problems above. At high airflow rates, a great deal of air would get sucked through the MAF counter, even though it was more restrictive, and it could be tuned. Many people design some kind of "flapper" so that at low airflow rates the air is forced through the MAF counter and at high airflow rates, the flap opens and air can go through both chambers. I haven't explored this idea yet. I think I am just going to leave the lower chamber in there and start looking for a 2G MAF. "

Okay where to start.

Is hacking a good idea? It doesn depend on your car and your mods.

Case 1: With a new style AFC, a big pump and/or an adjustable FPR and 550 injectors you should have no trouble at all getting your car tuned great for wot runs and regular driving... with no noticable loss in responsiveness. This assumes you have or can borrow a datalogger to tune. With all this stuff you can completely remove the lower section tube and not need a flapper door. You will need to set your low 1000 point to about +40% to keep your idle happy (base fuel pressure about 40). You will have to tinker with your rpm settings and the TH points to get your car tuned well enough that the 02 trim never hits it's upper or lower limits. Once you acheive this you will not notice any response loss or drivabilty loss. If you do not tune this properly under part throttle conditions you may notice these things... and/or even lots of knock.

Case 2: New style S-AFC, 450s and a big pump and or AFPR. You should be able to tune it properly for every instance accept for maybe idle. You will likely not be able to richen the mixture enough at idle to compensate for a total gutting of the MAF.

You could easily make it work with a little less hacking... say boring out the lower tube. Or you actually might be able to make it work by increasing your fuel pressure as well.

Case 3: Stock car with big fuel pump. You could fully hack your MAF but you will need to design and add a flapper door of some kind to make the MAF look 'unhacked' at idle. This can work great. However it will result in non-linear airflow rates under different driving conditions. This may or may not be noticed as a loss of responsiveness when hitting the gas or just driving around town. This is because you won't be able to get the 02 trim to stay within it's normal range under all driving conditions so the ECU can't always provide the right amount of fuel. However, this is a very cheap mod and allows you to bypass fuel cut for quite a while. So if you are having serious fuel cut problems this could be the answer.

You could also just lightly hack your MAF as well until you get around fuel cut. Start by removing the lower honeycomb. Test drive the car... if it idles fine and you are still hitting fuel cut try backing the screw out a bit. At some point you'll lose your idle (o2 sensor voltage will stop cycling). Undo what you have done just enough to get that back. If you are still getting fuel cut then you'll have to look into the other options.

Case 4:: Stock 1G. Again if you want to fully hack your MAF you will need some kind of flapper door to make it work.

Or again you could start hacking lightly as above. With a stock fuel pump you'll have less base pressure then if you had a big pump so you won't be able to hack as much. Find where you lose your idle then back up a bit.


Some other things to consider:
-if you have a 1990 then you are going to have a rougher time. The fuel trims of the 90s only go 80%~120% so the ECU has less ability to adjust for the nonlinearity your are creating. You will likely notice some response loss after hacking.
-if you have an old style AFC (knobs) you will likely still need a flapper door with a full hack since you will not be able to adjust it rich enough at idle. You will also not bea ble to tune it nearly as well as the new style S-AFCs so you will likely still notice some of the drivability effects. You'll have no problem tuning for wot but you may lose a little street feel.
-don't ever remove the upper honeycomb or modify the metered (upper) section at all.
-the 2G MAF is a good option to switch to as well if you have an AFC (and 550s if you have em).


So hacking the MAF can be a fantastic mod with the supporting mods. It can also be great for those hitting fuel cut or MAF overrun without the supporting mods if you get a flapper door... but you may or may not notice some laggin durring normal street driving.

I sold hacked MAFs for a couple years for everything from a low 12's second Talon to totally stock cars. I only had 2 people complain about the street driving problems. Both were completely stock cars... and both were 1990s. Never had any other complaints. All the ones I did were complete hacks gutting the entire lower tube out. Some were with properly designed flappers some without. My car currently has the new style S-AFC, 550s, a Wlabro 255 HP, a AFPR and a fully hacked 1G MAF. I've got ger tuned perfectly for wot runs and city driving. There are some tricks to do this but that's another story.

So in general hacking the MAF is a good idea if done right. Just make sure you hack properly only for the mods you have. If you have a 90 then you might want to think hard because the risks are a bit higher. But you can always just start with small hacks until you loose your cycling 02 sensor at idle or notice any other problems... then undo it a bit. Don't forget the stock fuel maps are quite rich and you will benefit at wot from leaning then some with hacking.

p.s. Just like once you start modifying boost you need to get a boost gauge to monitor it you will need to start monitoring your a/f mixture once you start fooling with it. A datalogger is a great way to do it... but you should at least get an EGT and an a/f gague.

But back to the original post... those problems were not caused by removing the honeycomb.

Please install the boost gauge and let us no what it's reading at wot.

Is the car stuttering at all?

What was that gasket thing you were talkinga bout that was the same size as the thermostat?? Please describe it better.

 

[Mystikal_1788]

hey mike j- or quacylla i seriously have no idea what this gasket thing is it's metel, it has that wierd shape too it Like the thermostat housing - i was taking off the acordian intake hose going from the turbo too the air can and then i heard somthing metel hit the ground and on the ground was this metel gasket i looked and looked and nothing- no clue where it goes- im sorry to everyone i had not hooked up my gauge today (no pod) tommorow for sure- i also am going to pull a bcs tommorow to try- also ordered a mbc today 45$ so we will see-i will try and give better pic of the gasket tommorow also- and too that guy who wrote the essay on the maf - thanks but (what does it all mean bassel) from austin powers

also there is no stutter very rarely do i get a stutter- also the car pulls a little diff somtimes - somtimes it pulls just a little harder in the top gears but i get a little less pull in first

(in first)- i mean in first gear

as soon as one of you get on write or post asap i wanna keep this thead going

 

[Quacylla]

It's just rebuttle to the topic title and some of the posts made earlier.

I don't have much more to say on your problem until we get more info (ie you install that boost gauge).

Maybe check that your timing belt didn't just happen to skip a tooth at the same time as pure coincidence.

It seems I may have left a wrong impression in the posts above or on my MAF webpages so I'm going to clarify. I do not sell hacked MAFs or kits anymore.

 

[turboholic]

Hacked MAF

 

[LaserRST]

Goodness...I hope thats not what a properly hacked MAS looks like.

....I think a carbuerator would be the next step up to that upgrade...

...jk...

 

[turboholic]

-That's a Al Blaha hacked MAF.

 

[Tom N]

Originally posted by turboholic
-That's a Al Blaha hacked MAF.

And we all know hes clueless when it comes to DSM performance.



The key to building a fast car: find someone who has already done it and copy him.

 

[Mystikal_1788]

ok cats i took the plugs out and BAM WHITE AS eminem they were soooooooooooo lean i have no clue what to do with - also guess what i noticed the plugs that i put in when i did those first mods- were way way different from the set i jut got - (ie the plugs were both ngk v power but with different codes say like one was ey's and the other was es's could this be a serious problem? so what else oh i changed the wires and the plugs and a few of the vaccum lines- so here is the test drive i took it for a spin and noting changed so i was bummed - so i took it over to the g/f's house. so i go inside for like 10 mins and com back out and start it -it has a significant more pull too it - like i hit a switch- and then i get back home and shut it off to go in and grab somthing come back out and bam it goes back to no pull- In no way is it the same as when i first got it but there was a promising pull for a slight while - sorry so long

sorry the story bounces everywhere hope you get the point

 

[turboholic]

Originally posted by 90tsiawd
And we all know hes clueless when it comes to DSM performance.

-Wow. I'm sorry for posting some clueless comment(s) that have upset you, tom, mr. know it all. btw, how come I don't see any tom with a 90 tsi awd on this list ? Oh, you are not into drag racing, but I also don't see any tom with a 90 tsi awd in SCCA's top ten list either. Again, please forgive me mr. DSMGOD.

 

[Mystikal_1788]

ok back to my prob can anyone confirm the plug difference and if i messed it up?

the difference between ngk v-power ey's and es's

 

[LaserRST]

I think that was sarcasm intended for me turboholic...heh. I hava feeling parts of this string might be edited...

...I am actually trying to git some feed back from some people who did the hacked MAS thing. Maybe it is a good idea, maybe not. Look for it on the 2.0 performance turbo forum.

 

[Mystikal_1788]

ok so how about my PROBLEM - can i please get some feed back

 

[Tom N]

Originally posted by turboholic


-Wow. I'm sorry for posting some clueless comment(s) that have upset you, tom, mr. know it all. btw, how come I don't see any tom with a 90 tsi awd on this list ? Oh, you are not into drag racing, but I also don't see any tom with a 90 tsi awd in SCCA's top ten list either. Again, please forgive me mr. DSMGOD.

dude chill out. It was a joke. If you noticed i am the one saying you need a moddified mas to go fast and there is nothing wrong with doing it if done right. Al blaha is a inivator in the DSM circle. Did yo aee the find a fast cat and copy part well al blaha has made fast cars. Some people But none of this is helping out our fellow DSMer.


You need to hook up that boost gauge and see what kind of boost your pushing with that moddified bcs. A datalogger would be nice to i think you might be over boosting and pulling alot of timing. Do you notice any detonation when you get into it.

Originally posted by Mystikal_1788
the difference between ngk v-power ey's and es's

i wis i could awnser this for u but i dont mess with the V-power ones. Just stick with good old BPR7ES. Use what we know works.

 

[Mystikal_1788]

ok first im a retard and i have no idea what detonation is? any clues?

did i tell you i changed my bcs and NOTHING ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh the car is going to the god damn junkyard if i don't figure this out

it is so wierd when i bought thos plugs they told me too gap them too .40 which is the non turbo gap so i gapped them wrong these plugs also came gapped to .40 now when i bought these other plugs they told me to gap them to .28 and they came gapped at .28 also i think the plugs i have in there are bpr7es's and the one's i had in there were bpr7ey's

 

[turboholic]

-B = 14mm
-P = Projected Insulator Type
-R = Resisitor Type
-6 = Heat Range (1=HOT : 11=COLD)
-E = 19mm thread reach
-K = 2-ground electrodes
-N = Special Side Electrode

-I don't know what does the Y stand for. You might want to contact NGK and see what they say.

 

[Mystikal_1788]

ffuucckk me this damnnnnnn car what is detonation and how do i know- and also i was running lean as hel becase when i pulled the plugs yesterday they were still white as the day i put them in and they have been in for a few weeks

i have 1300$ in my pocket im so pissed i would seriously pay so muh to have someone ffuucckin fix it!

 

[Tom N]

I couldnt tell you what it all stands for. I just know stock is BPR6ES and BPR7ES is one heat range cooler and they just work. Its what every one uses its what most on the DSM vendors sell for plugs. Just stick with BPR7ES with a .028 gap.

Originally posted by Mystikal_1788
ffuucckk me this damnnnnnn car what is detonation and how do i know- and also i was running lean as hel becase when i pulled the plugs yesterday they were still white as the day i put them in and they have been in for a few weeks

detonation is when you have to much air and no enough fuel. I dont know how to describe the sound of it. It is very faint. But the knock sensor will pick it up and pull timing which will drop the power way down. But fisrt we need to know how much boost you are getting. Because there are sever things that can cause this. Do you ever here the computer clicking in the car when driving it?

 

[Mystikal_1788]

k so what do you think for my prob. now ? im lean as hell i actually might be overboosting another question is the wastegate- should i be able to open and close it by hand? because on my daytona turbo i could push it in and out with some restriction but on my laser it budges very little, detonation how can i check, also 90tsiawd move to minnesota and help me fix my car there is beer in it

 

[turboholic]

-You might want to check the detonation(knock) sensor that's located on the back side of the block by the #2, if the sensor is leaking some gummy stuff, it need to be replaced.

 

[Mystikal_1788]

um, i usually have the radio up - but i don't think there is any click- almost positive- i wish i got m frickin pod-you think i could hook it up and just tape it to the dash just to see what i push because i don't have the pod and auto meter is taking forever

good thinking turbholic ill look now! is it hard t see nd what does it look like? behind cylinder number 2

 

[Tom N]

Originally posted by Mystikal_1788
um, i usually have the radio up - but i don't think there is any click- almost positive- i wish i got m frickin pod-you think i could hook it up and just tape it to the dash just to see what i push because i don't have the pod and auto meter is taking forever

yes. All you need is hooked up for a couple of runs to see the boost levels. You could have a fuel pump problem as well. How old is the fuel pump. One thing at a time though. get the boost gauge hooked up.