Medium sized turbo choosing.

[blownturbotsi]

I have been away from dsm's for a while and want to ask a few questions about a few turbos.

First, my wish is to have a laggy turbo with a .63 t3 (possibly vband) housing. I was thinking of a 35r or a 67mm both bb.

Questions:
How does the new gtx35r compare to the old? Is there a new 67mm billet that I have missed, besides pte? If there is only the older p trim 67, does the gtx already outflow it now? I think they are around the same lb/min.

I like pte, but with all of the research I've done with their warranty claims, I'd rather go Garrett since this car may see a lot of miles (hence the laggy turbo).

Thanks for your help!

 

[Steve93Talon]

First, my wish is to have a laggy turbo with a .63 t3 (possibly vband) housing. I was thinking of a 35r or a 67mm both bb.

Questions:
How does the new gtx35r compare to the old? Is there a new 67mm billet that I have missed, besides pte? If there is only the older p trim 67, does the gtx already outflow it now? I think they are around the same lb/min.

Why would you want to choke down a turbo of that size with a .63 housing? At minimum, I'd run a .82 T3, or more likely go to a twin scroll T4 hotside.

You're not going to find much data on the GTX turbos around here, might have better luck searching other applications.

There are quite a few 67mm billet turbos out there besides PTE. FP has the HTA3794. Bullseye has the Billet S366 and also the batmowheel option. Borg Warner has the EFR 9180. I believe Comp has one, and there are quite a few others popping up with billet options lately. In DSM/EVO land, you're probably going to find the most data on the FP and PTEs though.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

How much power are you looking to make? What Intake/Cam/Exhaust will this be mated with?

I agree with Steve, needs a bigger turbine housing.

HX52 is another ~67mm option.

 

[blownturbotsi]

I don't want to spin it very high which is the reason for the .63. I have a friend (another one of those) that has done 708 on an old school t67 on his Evo with a .63 and only 37lbs. I'm also going to go with a 2g head and Evo 3 intake manifold for a while to see what I can do there.

As far as other turbos, I'm aware of the holsets and fp's, but I'd like to stick with Garrett for the most part for what I've seen with their customer service. I have had two pte's in the past, but with the recent info on warranties, I'd move away from them as well.

 

[blownturbotsi]

Oh, I'm looking to build a quiet 4in exhaust, hopefully a v band exhaust housing, and I currently have kelford 272's which I'd replace before a turbo.

 

[Bud92gsx]

I have to ask..Whats the sense in going with a 35r? Whats the reason behind a laggy turbo?

Why not go 20g,or holset and call it a day.

 

[blownturbotsi]

I will answer your question with numbers: 750hp +

I want a laggy turbo so that I can attempt to get good gas mileage on e85. I've always liked my laggy turbos.

 

[Bud92gsx]

So your building a sub 10 second car?

 

[Archer Fabrications]

it would probably be good to hear your goals before anything else. i understand your reasoning with staying away from PTE due to their warranty reviews. If you havent researched it. garrett has gone down hill in quality since being purchased by honeywell. there is an article about it. here is something interesting for you to read
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1936851

after reading that, makes you think twice. FP does use garrett cores but they re-balance and build their turbos custom from the ground up using garrett parts. other companyies such as PTE use their own VERSION of the garrett CHRAs.

if you are wanting 750+hp and you dont want to "over spool it" and want lag, i dont think a 35R is right for you. maybe a GT37R or a T04z88HTA. or even a 40R at least that way you will get the slow spool you want, and the killer top end you want with little effort on the turbo

not sure what supporting mods you have, you should probably update your profile so people can better help you out.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

So you want a laggy turbo but you are going to stuff a 35r into a .63A/R housing.. which is usually done in an attempt to decrease spool time.

You want to hit 750awhp.. but you want good fuel economy?

I'm not certain you've got a good grip on what it is you want, or the reality of what you are looking to do.

And to hit 750awhp, you are going to be more than maxing out a 3582r (listed maps for ~65lbs/min) which for most people is easier said than done.

You would probably best suited to a 1.15A/R divided T4 HTA 3794R which will move ~80-85lbs/min (~90lb/min GT42R compressor, limited by the 37R turbine wheel) based on the above statements.

 

[blownturbotsi]

It's a 2.0 with 10:1, it'll be a 2g head and Evo 3 intake. I have an old school kinetic/sbr fmic and whatever fuel mods I need (2150/2200 inj, 450lph or two). It'll be kiggly springs and 272's and an o-ringed head.

I'm looking to hit full boost past 5k, but not spin past 8.2-8.5. I've never been comfortable going over 7800 for some reason. My old 6262 was on an .82 housing and the lag was fine, but if I can get away with having a smaller housing that won't mind only going to 8.5, that's what I want.

My 6152 on the dsm flange way back when got 30mpg on the highway at 75 mph with 1000's on pump. I'm hoping to be able to get mid 20's with e85 on the 2150's or 2200's if I can.

I am always about overbuilding, but I do not want to move to a 42r as I was told its the one that'll make you hate your car. I may call pte and ask what I can do for them to warranty something without issue. I do like them and the 6x66 line looks promising, I just don't want to have to drop 2k on a turbo anytime something happens to it that's not in my control.

Are there any details that are still needed? I'll look into the Garrett thread as well. I thought that the gtx35r was pushing 75lbs now?

 

[Archer Fabrications]

humm... all i have to say is 5-8k is a very narrow powerband.

 

[Bud92gsx]

5 to 8 grand on rpm with 10:1 and your thinking your going to want a laggy turbo..

 

[WES_393]

humm... all i have to say is 5-8k is a very narrow powerband.

I was thinking the same thing the whole time I'm reading this thread. Along with questioning why someone would build a 750hp capable engine with a large frame turbo, just to choke it to death with a small turbine housing, low rev limit, and attempts to get good gas mileage with Ethanol.

The saying that comes to mind is "Shit or get off the pot".

 

[Bud92gsx]

^ I want to know if this thread is a joke.

 

[LOLVTEC]

^ I want to know if this thread is a joke.

Lmao.

 

[blownturbotsi]

Hahaha! Like I said, I wouldn't mind an .82 housing. I just don't want something huge where I'd have to pull 9800 in first to get out of the hole. I want to take advantage of the smaller ports on the 2g head instead of having to spin forever to fill up the 1g head. People have been doing this forever, why are y'all looking at me like I'm asking too much of the car? If I shift at 8500, I don't see myself dropping below 5 even going to 5th, am I wrong?

 

[blownturbotsi]

Let me phone a friend and see if I need some bringing back down to earth chat, like I said, it's been a while.

 

[Bud92gsx]

Allright, but you only have two lifelines left on your quest for a million dollars.

 

[blownturbotsi]

Nope, not coming back down. I've been talked into a 6466 in an .82 housing. Spools a bit sooner than I wanted, but is everything else that I wanted. I shouldn't have any problem getting good gas mileage on the highway either. Boom.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

So much for going with a Garrett..

Which .82A/R hotside? Hope you are looking at the Divided T4 and not the T3 hotsides. Even then for those figures you definitely need the 1.15A/R T4. It needs to breathe to make that power, besides the .63 or .82 housings on a turbo like that is much like f*cking with just the very tip of your dick.

The only way you are going to hit ~750awhp on the CEA6466 at less than 8500rpm with a DSM Cylinder head is damn near 40psi boost with a complementary cam, IM, and big runner/fender exit exhaust setup.

Just remember you are trying to make the leap from a mid 13 sec car that runs 110-111, and likely making ~300whp based on that number, to more than double that power. Completely different animal.

 

[tkelly27]

It seems in the racing community that people have been experiencing failures with precision turbos. There was a thread posted within the last 2 months that had an engineer from Garrett going through a dead PTE turbo and finding that the turbine shaft had been modified.

Not going to tell you not to get that turbo, you may love it. I will show you this post, please don't let the name scare you away, I'd like you to look at the dyno graph

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/393059-hx52-set-up-3.html#post152688905

Full boost is a few hundred rpm after 5k and the power stays on until 8.5k. DSMers have made over 700hp with the HX52, and it is supposed to be able to make 900. When you factor in the cost (most are had for $400 or less), and the fact that they are designed to be run at that airflow level for hundreds of thousands or even millions of miles, I think it would be perfect for you.

I would also look into the Borg Warner S series before PTE. They seem to be very good turbos, especially at high HP levels.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

The standard ~66mm compressor HX52 will service more than 85lbs/min, and they come in a divided 16cm2 H2 (slightly larger than T4, modify the bolt holes) turbine housing and they spool and recover very quick for their size.

I have the standard cast wheel 52 on the car and the Billet 71mm Pro 52 (~100lb/min wheel) is currently being put together for me.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

(setup has since been updated, currently in the shop for fab work)

The standard HX52 can be had for a bargain off the over the road Volvo D series semi trucks.

This is enough turbo to run to 11k on a 2.0L motor. Considering that a third gear roll in an AWD 5MT can see full 30+ psi by mid 5k rpm, that is fantastic.

Falls between a GT4294 and a 4202 in terms of flow, spools like a T4 GT37.

There is at least one standard HX52 on an auto AWD 2.0l making over 800whp with boost in the mid 30s. Once you get into the sweet spot on these turbos (north of 30psi), efficient setups are picking up ~30whp/psi

As far as PTE vs. Garrett/BorgWarner/Holset (actual OE manufacturers) check this thread out:
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=481264

Watch Harry @ PTE lie and then backpedal when called on it. They are modifying the garrett parts, and then they fail because the customers are pushing these setups to the limit and the PTE housings aren't made to contain because they are looking to save weight before safety is considered.

Basically PTE has the customers do field R&D for them unknowingly, and then when the failed unit comes back for inspection they blame the customer. Clever business model.

The former PTE guys that switch to the GTX line end up going faster it seems to...

 

[tkelly27]

As usual, someone who owns one has much better information than myself. I had also read that most people that are in an inducer size limited class of racing are switching from almost all other brands to a borg warner. This was primarily because of the extended tip being able to give them more hp, but I believe many people were having problems with Garrett units failing.

I love the Garrett that came with my van, and I can see how a person who has been out of the game for a while might stick with them or a derivative of them. I don't believe Garrett, or a modified Garrett, is at the top of the technological heap anymore.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Borg Warner, MHI and Holset are the only turbo's I will run on my cars at this point. I've gone through almost two dozen setups on my DSMs and other projects.

Loved my Extended Tip S200sx-59/74 and ran it with multiple turbine housings from the BEP Bolt-on .55A/R to the OE Airwerks/Schwitzer Divided T4 housings. I should point out that while ETT/MWE and Billet wheels are not unique to BW, they do seem to pull it off well as tkelly mentioned

I've had a 14b, S16G, E316G and a TD06SL2 18G from MHI, enjoyed all of them.

GT4088 from Garrett.. admittedly not the best from their line and it didn't fail on me, but did not impress for its size and cost.

Had an HT60 over an HX40 way back when on my old cummins truck, and now I'm back to Holset with the 52's

I will never run a PTE after watching how they conduct themselves and the consequences of the choices they make when they have performance, reliability and safety to consider. They compromise on the latter to solely work on the former.. and they are copy cats at that. Stealing Aero from Garrett and FP and then getting cheap with materials/R&D and letting their customers down when they do fail and try and redeem their warranty