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maat's idea reborn (sequential turbo)

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leet said:
So you're thinking of having a BIG turbo pull air through a LITTLE one?

You do realize that is a major flow restriction, right?

Maybe I am not understanding your concept, could you draw a picture for me? :)
Click to expand...

Exactly... except not really a BIG turbo and a little one... that's where the turbo maching comes in... you'd need to look at the compressor maps and find a set of turbo's that would work together... have one that spools up fairly fast, and a second that spools up a little slowwer... like this http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9315&highlight=sequential

seems to me it can be done, but you'd have to pick turbo's carefully.... you couldn't just dump a turbo that flows 20 lbs/min in front of another that flows 75 lbs/min...

But the other idea I had come up with would require a custom fabbed manifold... if you had the exhaust runners from cylinders 1 and 4 running to one turbo and the runners from cylinders 2 and 3 running to the other, the exhaust pulses would alternate between turbo's efficiently enough that I think with 2 small (same size) turbo's a 2.4 could push the setup fairly well... but you would have to mount the turbo's at an angle to get the piping to fit right...
 
Defiant said:
Hm. Show us the other one that's been done in the 15 years there's been a chance to.
Click to expand...

It's not a DSM, but............. Go buy this months issue of Hot Rod. There is a ’57 Chevy with 8 turbos on a LS1 V8! OMG Yeah, it overkill, but, yes, it has been done, 8X! :rolleyes: :laser:
 
http://www.lateral-g.net/sandlin/

This link circulated around work a couple months ago. The only reason to do this is so you can tell people you have 8 turbo's. The sound of 8 turbo's spooling is rather beautiful. I was wondering what turbo's he used, maybe the RHB32 from the Sprint or something.
 
GPTourer said:
I don't think Bushur's RWD Eclipse belongs in this discussion. His car is backhalved and almost completely re-engineered.

This guy wants to do it on a street car. Whenever this idea comes up, the results are always the same. The person that wants to do it has all these grand ideas, then all the naysayers say nay. Why bother asking for advice? Just do it and show us all a journal of pics and how to descriptions. Or keep it all a secret and just show the final pic of the engine bay and a video of the car tearing someone a new a$$hole at the track or on the highway. Just bring it. Personally, I just want to hear and see more about the current T4 setup you have now.
Click to expand...



Uhh, Buschur has a talon ... Rau has an eclipse both RWD ... some other guy has a 1G RWD ....
 
ZyklonBZombie said:
Uhh, Buschur has a talon ... Rau has an eclipse both RWD ... some other guy has a 1G RWD ....
Click to expand...

Thanks for proving me wrong, a talon not an eclipse it makes a big bloody difference, and ok 3 people have rwd dsm's, again big bloody difference. The point was, a project of this magnitude wouldnt start off by someone coming on the boards asking about it. I was just offering my opinion on the whole matter. Im enjoying the posts by FireyIce01, and Leet so quit responding to my input because it doesnt change things :| , i made two minor screw ups my bad.

Dodge had a concept twin turbo 4 cyl i remember someone posting a pic of it last time someone asked about 4g63TT maybe you can look at that setup for some ideas.
 
Right, yeah - I was thinking of Rau's Eclipse. But neither it nor Buschur's Talon are what I consider typical vehicles.

What's being descirbed is a sequential turbo setup and lots of diesels use them and its where the name "intercooler" really comes from, as in a cooler between turbos and not an aftercooler like we all have. The turbos are usually a similar size, not like a T-25 and a T-88HD. And the boost pressure is going to get way out of control. Much more then even a built 4g63 can handle.
 
Defiant said:
Last post from this guy was to sell a long block. Cheap.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110396&page=2&pp=25
Click to expand...
This looks like something off a RX-7. Looks pretty wicked, and nicely done.
That 8x turbo LS1 has got to have hella lag. Looks like each bank of 4 turbos are being feed by one side of the engine and not each turbo being feed by one cylender. And those turbo's do look pretty damn big for the amount of them on their.

FireyIce01 said:
okay, well, here's my thoughts on how I would do it... the first turbo would be the smaller one, it would be plumbed into the exhaust like normal, except, instead of the O2 housing, wastegate, and downpipe, put the wastegate on the manifold before the turbo, after the 4 passages have merged, and run a pipe from the exit of the first turbo's turbine into the inlet on the second turbo, and then put the downpipe and O2 and whathaveya on the second turbo, now put a cone filter right on the first turbo, and the outlet of the first turbo's compressor, into a *SMALL* intercooler and then onto the inlet of the second turbo compressor... this way, the full exhaust would be traveling through both turbo's, and the air being pushed through the second turbo will help to spool it... I think this would work because once the second turbo starts to spool, it will be creating a low pressure area between the turbo's which will make the efficiency of the first turbo appear to be higher, as it will no longer be pressurizing the air that passes through it, so it would be running higher flow numbers and less pressure... which I think if you used the right turbos could keep them both within their max efficiency zones on their respective compressor maps, even when you're running more boost and flowing more air than the first turbo could efficiently do alone...
Click to expand...

Ok way wrong here. I see what you where thinking. But by forcing air into the inlet from a smaller turbo won't help it spool. It will actually increase spool because of the loss of exhaust gases feeding the first turbo. Also lets say the smaller turbo can push 35 lbs/min while this T4 can push like 52 lbs/min. With with the smaller turbo's outlet being feed into the larger turbos inlet will cause the bigger turbo to not be albe to flow much more than 35 lbs/min because the smaller turbo will restrict the bigger turbo's inlet. Catch my drift. Plus that isn't a sequential setup. The original posters idea was somewhat decent and a basic sequential setup which is the main reason to going twin turbo. To make it work you have to be able to completly shut off the exhaust and compressor outlet of both turbo's to make it effective. And just like other sequential set up's you will have a boost drop when the other turbo starts opening up.

Last issue of Turbo mag their is a TT Supra running twin HK3250's pushing 1078 WHP. It's probably like around 1200 HP at the crank. So Twins work. The article didn't say that it was a sequential setup nor do I think it is, as they are to hard to get to work effectivly.

Their is no easy way of doing this. Their are a few ways you can make it work. You can compound turbo's, paralel turbo's, and run them in series. All have their pro's and con's. My suggestion is do some googleing on all three variants and see which one will work best for your application you have in mind.

Buid a stroker to spool that T4 up faster. It would put out more power as well since you have more displacemnet.
 
:thumb:

you guys got some good ideas. i aint takin nuthin personally.

leet read my last post as far as how i'm gettin a second turbo in there. the large turbo will be about an inch above and 2" over from where the downpipe is currently located, right under the dipstick. the first turbo is right at the exhaust manifold. honestly the only other placement i could think of is on the passenger side above the transmission. i dont think that would be practical (as if anything i'm planning is practical but practical for this application).

anyway this was the kinda feedback i was looking for. chicagogsx that's a good point you made about surging. i didnt thing of that. the way i saw it the easiest way to do this was to have both turbo's running, not one turbo cut's on the other cut's off. i was going to have a large wastegate placed on the exhaust manifold but then when i looked at it again the wastegate would be really only pulling from one cylinder so now i plan on the wastegate going from a plate between the manifold and the first small turbo toward the passneger side. fieryice has a good idea. i thought about that but the air restriction might be a problem and the large turbo would be sucking air through the small turbo. if the small turbo is PUSHING the large turbo, then that's fine, but i really dont want the large turbo PULLING the small turbo, and possibly damaging it. that's why i figured both running simultaniously (sp) the small one kicks on, reaches max boost, and as that occurs the large one having the spool start. it doesnt shut off, because of when i shift or even decelerate that might cause problems itself. what i was thinkin was imagine 2 turbo's on top of each other . well the first one operates just like a normal single turbo application. not a problem. both exhaust outlets are connected to a downpipe. however, a valve that closes with increasing pressure from the exhaust from the first turbo to the downpipe, opens into the exhaust inlet for the second turbo so that once closed all exhaust goes into the second turbo. the wastegate from the first turbo (a large one set at a low psi spring) would always dump into the exhaust inlet to the second turbo. i was thinking that might prevent the first turbo from surging. although the second turbo is pulling most of the exhaust from the first one, it isnt pulling all. it's pulling some from the wastegate after the manifold and before the first turbo. that was why i wasn't thinkin it would surge, but even with that you still think it would? another alternative might be having the exhaust manifold going straight to the second turbo, with the wastegate at the manifold going into the smaller turbo. might that work? i personally dont think that'll work at all but what do you guys think?


thanks for all the responses good and bad. if you see a problem let me know, and even better if you know how to fix that problem let me know. i already know and see a huge mess i'm gettin into. i saw that in the year i've been tryin to work this out. and i'm still in the basic workings of it. i havnt even started planning on the vacuum lines or the fact of wether i should run 2 intakes or one joined together.

now if you really wanna hear something outta the blue try this. this idea i simply gave up on before the sequential turbo idea. i was tryin to come up with plans on having 2 4G63-T's in my eclipse. one in front, and one in back. whatcha guys think about that? :D how about that for monkies flying?
 
95kate said:
:thumb:

now if you really wanna hear something outta the blue try this. this idea i simply gave up on before the sequential turbo idea. i was tryin to come up with plans on having 2 4G63-T's in my eclipse. one in front, and one in back. whatcha guys think about that? :D how about that for monkies flying?
Click to expand...

You remind me of my son, he has all the same ideas, only, he wanted to do it to my Rabbit!! Maybe someday you two should get together and start your own engineering company!! :D :thumb:
 
I like the idea of a faster spooling turbo setup running a rediculous amount of cfm Iam all for it but there is alot of problems there . Why not just extend the intake turbo impellar shaft . Just run it out 6 more inches and have a dc brushless motor with a grabbing clutch on the end of the shaft kick on when boost drops . When boost pressure hits 5 or somthing and spoolup is really starting have the boost referancing solenoid kit the electric motor off disengaging the clutch coupling . How hard is it ? A bracket to hold the motor , and engaging clutch , and a solenoid . Am I not seeing somthing here ? Loss of horsepower to the crank from parasitic loss from increased alternator draw . .5 hp gain in spool time 3-5 seconds with a big turbo .....Hypothetical numbers but well within the parameters . A person could have it setup to the throttle position sensor so that it only turns on at half throttle and above . I can just see it now.... to small of electric motor and it wont do it . Hp requirements to the shaft would be required along with cfm amounts per revolution, to revolutions per pound of boost . Motor requirements are really critical .

If it wont work please give me a reason .

Time to tear the blender apart :laugh:
 
autronicDSM said:
Twin engine DSM been done already. Nice try copy cat.
Click to expand...


are you serious??? shoot if i could put both ideas together that would be awesome. get me some info on it :cool:
 
95kate said:
another alternative might be having the exhaust manifold going straight to the second turbo, with the wastegate at the manifold going into the smaller turbo. might that work? i personally dont think that'll work at all but what do you guys think?
Click to expand...

Won't work this way. Cause the Wastegate only opens up after you reach your set boost level which means the turbo is already spooled.

You first idea might have some merit. Use 2 intakes. Use a GM MAF and MAFT and go blow through. Y pipe the compressor outlets to go into one GIG FMIC. Could work. But once you shut off the exhaust flow to the small turbo the boost from the big turbo will still blow throught the little turbo's compressor housing basicly causing a hugh boost leak. You going to have to put a butterfly valve in the y-pipe for the smaller turbo to shut off it's compressor outlet that acts simotaniously with your reverse wastegate. I'm seeing in my head your design and I can see it working. Also you can dump the wastegate of the smaller turbo right on top of the bigger turbo's TH to help spool it as well with this setup.
 
the 8 turbos on that LS1 are what, equivalent to GT15s or something. Small, yes, but he can fit them in there because a DSM can fit in the engine bay he installed them in :laugh: the putz added 300 pounds to the car and it only makes 700hp. He did it "just to do it" and knew it wouldn't be worth the money.

twin engined cars are not unique, they've been around for a looong time. Most recent I have seen: a Caddy with two Northstars and a Tiburon with two turbo-charged Betas

as for the idea of this thread. It's really just kinda pointless in a DSM. You picked a T4, deal with it or get a turbo with less lag :thumb: DSM did not design or engineer these cars with a sequential setup in mind. It's a whore, it takes up a lot of room, and let's not forget you will be adding weight and more heat underhood.

Honestly, I'd save yourself the trouble and stick with a single turbo. either get one with lag you are willing to deal with or juice it :D

If you want to play with two turbos, get a car with a V engine. :thumb:
 
im not sure about two turbo's... i mean most Supra's with lots of power have converted to a large, Single turbo. Im not keen on the whole twin turbo thing, although it seems like a great idea. Good luck tho.
 
dont know if anyone else thinks this is a good idea but what about using the spent pressure from the blow off valve and storing it in a tank then dumping into the turbo like a bottle of nitros? never need to nave nitros recharged and would only need a few more pipes added
just a thought?
 
I am presentlly working on another idea . Beware some of you turn back now or you will have to read my crazy post .

Here it goes. I looked into all the threads talking about using compressed air to spool up a turbo . I dont want to go and get my scuba tank filled every week . I also dont like the idea of having 2500psi sitting in the back of my car. So I came up with another idea . Mini 300psi air compressor with small gallon bottle . Half inch line running from it to a 12 volt solenoid and plumbed into a tapped fitting in the turbo . I will not be able to use a fitting smaller than half inch to get it to spool at a resonable rate . It will depend on air volume . So maybe a carbon fiber tank of 2-3 gallons . I would enclose the little air compressor in a sound proof enclosure ,hmmm the walbro 255 is propably louder . It would come on only when boost is lower than 5 lbs and throttle is over 50%. It would turn off when boost reaches a predetermined level.

Any thoughts on this one ? :)

Anyone know the psi of the exhaust before the turbo ?
 
burldude said:
I am presentlly working on another idea . Beware some of you turn back now or you will have to read my crazy post .

Here it goes. I looked into all the threads talking about using compressed air to spool up a turbo . I dont want to go and get my scuba tank filled every week . I also dont like the idea of having 2500psi sitting in the back of my car. So I came up with another idea . Mini 300psi air compressor with small gallon bottle . Half inch line running from it to a 12 volt solenoid and plumbed into a tapped fitting in the turbo . I will not be able to use a fitting smaller than half inch to get it to spool at a resonable rate . It will depend on air volume . So maybe a carbon fiber tank of 2-3 gallons . I would enclose the little air compressor in a sound proof enclosure ,hmmm the walbro 255 is propably louder . It would come on only when boost is lower than 5 lbs and throttle is over 50%. It would turn off when boost reaches a predetermined level.

Any thoughts on this one ? :)

Anyone know the psi of the exhaust before the turbo ?
Click to expand...

Ok the problem with this is that it will be unmettered air going into the intake. Thus causing you you run lean. And if you where to put it into the TH the expansion from compressed gas to air pressure would cause a huigh temp drop and thus pretty much just cancel it's self out due to the decreased exhaust temp. Lower temp air is smaller and thus causes a smaller force on the Turbin blades.. If you have a blow through MAF then maybe it might have some merit.... It's just compressed air so it's not pure O2 which is extreamly explosive and so dangerous it should never be done.... But I'mt not to sure is force on the compressor wheel is going to help spool all that much... You can try it and see what happens but I'm guessing that a lot will just escape out the intake pipe...
 
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