Loud Engine knock. Balance shaft bearing?

[Nasty Dream]

[ame]http://youtu.be/Kl2VObChR8s[/ame]

This is not my car, but mine sounds exactly like this, for about half the time. The tapping cuts in and out on mine, and sounds like it's from the intake manifold area.


Eclipse GST 1995 [DSM 2g] KNOCK SOUND. SPUN BEARING? ROD? VALVES?

What do you think that knocking sound is?

I need someone that knows for sure exactly what this is. The comment on a similar video suggest balance shaft bearing.

The engine is currently running smooth, but it was shaking REALLY BAD front to back until I got the fuel pressure regulator fixed and I put fuel injection/combustion cleaner/water remover. Do you think the balance shaft slipped?

I don't totally know what I'm talking about, I learn as I go. I've had this car a long time.

2nd owner. Bought stock in 1999-2001 timeframe with 51k.

16psi boost, 120,000 miles, original engine and turbo. Head gasket at 50,000 miles by dealership.

Well maintained and relatively babied.

Obviously, I'm VERY UPSET, but I have other transportation and you know: racecar.

I believe a garage was driving my car hard when it was cold.

There was way high fuel pressure at the time, and the fuel pressure regulator failed under the garage's care, but the engine damage is probably unrelated. (that's fixed now, with AFPR and gauge)

I need to know:
What's the problem
What kind of labor will I have to do?
Can I fix it while the engine is in the car?
Can I fix it with jackstands?
Do I need an engine hoist?

what to buy, i.e.: balance shaft elimination kit, OEM rod, larger pistons, camshafts, springs, lifters, etc.?

I already have all the parts to redo the timing belt, cooling system and everything else.

I am ready to order the parts immediately. What parts should I buy?

Any part that comes off the car, I want to make it better if it will help me get 350-450HP on 93 octane on a street turbo. But I don't want to replace anything needlessly. So stock OEM parts will suffice.

Again, I want 93 octane (with 10% ethanol) compatible on a street turbo, so we are looking at 16-18 psi maximum, and I want 300-450 HP.


I also need help deciding who to take the car to to rebuild the engine, if you guys don't think it's do-able.

I'm in Northern Virginia. This happened while under the care of the shop that put in my clutch. I am pretty handy and have most tools, but don't have a lot of experience.

THANK YOU SO MUCH

 

[DSM1G90]

Hydraulic lifter died on you. Noise comes from when lobe on cam is pushing down on the rocker, but the collapsed lifter is causing the rocker to slam against the cam since it can't push down on the valve.

Take off the rocker cover and see what's going on underneath.

Might have a head job coming up to see if any damage to the cam(s).

 

[Nasty Dream]

One other thing. It doesn't do that -- or it hasn't done that until it gets mostly warmed up (coolant gauge about 3/4 where it normally is)

So it doesn't do it all the time. I didn't leave it running for long after I heard the sound, but I wanted to record it. But my recording, shown here, is very dark and the sound isn't great:
[ame=http://youtu.be/0hM2tHAmISg]Eclipse GST 1995 [DSM 2g] KNOCK SOUND. SPUN BEARING? - YouTube[/ame]
You can hear it best after 50 seconds. It's loudest near any air intake part of the engine (but sound travels great through air openings).

I'm not sure if my problem changes with engine speed! This is my car, in the nighttime (sorry it's dark).
Should I test to see if ti changes with engine speed?

I love you guys, seriously. I'm not even stressed anymore. I was dying before I put in the AFPR, when chunks of carbon and unburnt fuel were flying out of the exhaust pipe.

INFO:
I'm working on the idle and testing the new fuel system. My throttle cable adjuster slipped and I'm adjusting that. The garage messed with the BISS, and I just reset the battery. The pulleys are noisy and I want to change the timing belt and everything to go with it, but I wanted to see what needs to be done to the engine so I can do them at the same time).

 

[DSM1G90]

Okey .. then a tired, or damaged lifter is doing this - best do a full lifter replacement then.

If it does this some of the time, that one lifter is so weak or damaged that it can't keep pressure.

Oil, when cold, is thicker and will be more pressure in the lifter. But, when oil thins when hot, then the pressure is reduced in the lifter and can't do it's full function and you either get the 'ticks' or this knocking due to a totally weak or collapsed lifter.

If you want all that done to the motor, might as well do a full lifter kit replacement on top of it to save on labor charges.

 

[HUM8OLDT]

I agree, since you're gonna be replacing also, u might think of switching to the 3g lifters...just a thought

 

[Nasty Dream]

Okey .. then a tired, or damaged lifter is doing this - best do a full lifter replacement then.

If it does this some of the time, that one lifter is so weak or damaged that it can't keep pressure.

Oil, when cold, is thicker and will be more pressure in the lifter. But, when oil thins when hot, then the pressure is reduced in the lifter and can't do it's full function and you either get the 'ticks' or this knocking due to a totally weak or collapsed lifter.

If you want all that done to the motor, might as well do a full lifter kit replacement on top of it to save on labor charges.

oooooh!

I'm running shell Rotella 5w30, which I guess is light.

and I just changed the pressure under the valve cover by changing from a valve stem (the large nipple style port on the left of our valve cover) with a breather (small air filter), to plumbing the valve cover to the turbo intake pipe. I had been driving with the breather for a couple of years.

I wonder if that changed valve pressure enough to expose a failing part that was hiding.

I'm guessing having the hose from the valve cover hooked up on the turbo intake pipe is pulling more air into the turbo from the valve stem, which lowered valve chamber air pressure enough to expose a weak lifter spring.

(There's so much to learn -- I don't really research until I have to fix it)

OTHER:
The dipstick recently cracked, making it so there's only 1 o-ring. The new dipstick should arrive tomorrow. But that would lower pressure too, but I'm not sure if the two are related.

 

[DSM1G90]

Min oil weight for Turbo DSM' is 10w30. And that's on a new block with new bearings and similar.

Older you get, you might have to jump up to 10w to 15w 40.
Hi pressure and power owners uses 20w50.

Thin oil on a broke in motor will expose tired lifters since the pressure really isn't there to keep them up to quiet.

Do a drain and put in 15w40 and see if this will shut that lifter up.

Do you still have your PCV valve connect and functioning normally - rattles when you take it out and shake it? Under boost, the PCV valve closes completely and the vacuum from the turbo inlet pulls the crankcase pressure to be recirculated back into the intake manifold.

Some users will do a catch can on that section of the PCV system (from rocker cover to turbo inlet after the MAF to keep their FMIC from getting all full of oil) along with the main catch can in between PCV valve and intake manifold.

Dipstick is just that - a dipstick ...nothing related to pressure. Only worry is if the dipstick pops out which is a sign that you got tonnage of crankcase pressure that needs to be controlled. Otherwise, major oil consumption and eventual crank seal failure will result - seals just pop out and you got oil everywhere.

 

[Nasty Dream]

To try changing the pressure, I switched the breather back onto the valve cover and made another video.
This video of my engine has much better sound.
[ame]http://youtu.be/tr3ysqGiwTY[/ame]
BEST VIDEO YET. You can really hear problems.

when I hold the gas pedal steady it hesitates or whatever and the car shakes like hell. You can hear it really good later through the video. It wasn't caused by the breather filter. And this other entire problem could be unrelated as I seem to have quite a few problems.

My engine had been shaking like crazy front to back the entire time it idled. But it's stopped, now only does it when I hold the throttle steady, to make it hesitate. I can rev and idle with no problem.

o2 sensor/s? CPU?

I think the garage damaged the rear motor/trans mount because I accidentally gave them the wrong insert for the rear, and he couldn't make it work. I was going to do the easy front one once I got it home.

I had crap shooting out of my tailpipe from a super rich condition that could have fouled the o2 sensor/s. But I put in the AFPR and now that's gone, and that wouldn't cause the loud ticking noise.

Lots of noises I know what those problems are. I want to figure out what that new, very loud tapping sound is.
It only does it after it is nearly warmed up.
* When I hold the throttle steady it makes hesitations - that's another problem I"m not sure what. When it warms up doesn't it take input from o2 to adjust something?

But the hesitation could just as easily be related to the tapping noise. So that would explain the car running bad and something making the wrong noises.


Thanks again for the help.

The lifters, I'll be glad to replace.

Camshafts I understand pretty well but I don't know what kind I should use for my application. I also like the power in the 3.5K-5.5K RPM. I don't race, I just want insane passing power.

What else could it be though -- is there anything else that might be a good upgrade or wear item to change at 120,000 miles?

I don't plan on running high boost because of the 93 octane I'm on, but I would love 400 HP

 

[killercolt]

Get the chrysler/mitsu rocker arms removal tool to remove the rocker arms. It is about 20 bux shipped and will make the job really easy.

You have too many thing going on. Go ahead and do the bs elimination. While the pan is off, replace the bearings with some King Bearings. Do the rod and main bearing too. If you are careful, you can remove the top half of the main bearing too.

Make sure you don't have the water pump pulley on backward. It can make the same noise. Check the crank pulley for seperation. If you have a/c, check that pulley too.

Make sure they put the bolt in the rear that hold the transmission against the block. It might cause the tranny and engine to not align correctly and cause this noise. Also, make sure starter is in there correctly.

 

[redbud23]

I had a 1991 talon AWD and it made the same noise that yours did. When I took it apart to investigate it ended up being spun rod bearing. Which was really funny because I drove that car for a month making that noise. It was a small noise at first and it kept getting louder until I took it apart. One of the guys said it could be a lifter and your choice of oil could of pushed it over the edge, but I've had a bad lifter before and it would sound differently when it was warm and cold so that doesn't sound to me like a possibility. You really will not know until you first take the valve cover off and check all the lifters. Move each rocker to see if one of them moves to much. You will know if you find one. If that doesn't work follow the instructions for putting new cams in the head. Clip the timing belt to the cam gears first and then loosen the cam caps and remove each lifter and inspect them. Make sure you find a good thread and follow all instructions properly before loosening the cam caps.
If nothing then you might have to pull the oil pan and inspect the bottom end.
If you have any more questions let me know.

SSG Brian Redding

 

[Nasty Dream]

Min oil weight for Turbo DSM' is 10w30. And that's on a new block with new bearings and similar.

I don't know. A ton of people were swearing by the Rotella for our cars, and I've been using it for a few years with no problems. I was using Mobil1 10w30 full synthetic previously, and the car seemed to be smoother with Rotella.

Maybe I got the wrong one!


Both sellers list them at 5w40 Heavy duty, but the are these even the same? Which one is right, if not?

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Do you still have your PCV valve connect and functioning normally - rattles when you take it out and shake it?

I replaced it about 5,000 miles ago with a high quality aftermarket. The original still rattled, but I think we are supposed to replace them at certain service intervals. I will check for the rattle, or maybe I should just replace it again?

Some users will do a catch can on that section of the PCV system

I have a catch can and breather filter set up, I've been using it for about 5 years with no issue like this.

Get the chrysler/mitsu rocker arms removal tool to remove the rocker arms. It is about 20 bux shipped and will make the job really easy.

Thanks

Go ahead and do the bs elimination.

I have no idea how, can I do that with the engine in the car and the car on jackstands?

I did quite a bit of reading about it but I don't know...

I'm worried about the oil. I heard there are oil pressure and/or oil distribution problems after doing that.

While the pan is off, replace the bearings with some King Bearings. Do the rod and main bearing too. If you are careful, you can remove the top half of the main bearing too.

so this is my first time opening up an engine, besides replacing a valve cover.
What part of the engine are the King Bearings for? So all this can be done by taking off the oil pan?

Make sure you don't have the water pump pulley on backward. It can make the same noise. Check the crank pulley for seperation. If you have a/c, check that pulley too.

no a/c, no p/s, water pump has been fine for 60k mi.

Timing belt and water pump and all the pulleys and tensioners and bolts are getting done once I see if the engine is even worth maintaining.

Make sure they put the bolt in the rear that hold the transmission against the block. It might cause the tranny and engine to not align correctly and cause this noise. Also, make sure starter is in there correctly.

Interesting! This problem started when they put a clutch in. So they either hurt the engine test driving it, it just happened to break when they started it, or they didn't install something correctly.

It's very upsetting. I wish I had a diagram or photograph to show me where to look where you are talking about.

I had a 1991 talon AWD and it made the same noise that yours did. When I took it apart to investigate it ended up being spun rod bearing.

hm

It was a small noise at first and it kept getting louder until I took it apart. One of the guys said it could be a lifter and your choice of oil could of pushed it over the edge, but I've had a bad lifter before and it would sound differently when it was warm and cold so that doesn't sound to me like a possibility

But mine only starts doing it when it's almost warmed up. I haven't warmed it all the way up since because I don't want to make things worse. But it seems it will continue.

 

[DSM1G90]

I was using Mobil1 10w30 full synthetic previously, and the car seemed to be smoother with Rotella.

What's real funny is that any motor will be fine with any kind of oil-both dino or synthetic - it doesn't know the difference. Just that one needs more frequent changes whereas with synth, it lasts tons longer, just still have to change the filter.

Prob why you noticed the difference is that you changed weights - from a 10w to a thinner 5w .. "W", means "Winter"

Oil's kinda weird. High number is when it's cold out of the bottle for startup oil flow through the motor and the low number is the one we need to pay attention to since the oil thins down to the low number when hot....why the DSM motor requirements heads to the 10w as its minimum since its tolerances levels are a bit loose.

You get new cars that can use 5w down to 0w 20 since they're built with very tight tolerances and needing real fast oil flow through the galleys on startup - why the "20"

When I first heard this noise, that was the first inclination that came to me .. that you toasted a rod bearing and where it knocks on occasion is you have oil pressure enough to eliminate the knocking. Bus where it sounded from the top end, is where I made mention of the gone lifter.

BS removal: One can leave the front BS shaft in the block, but the rear one has to be removed along with the bearing spin to close oil ports.

Thus the block can stay in the car.

 

[truesk83r]

mine makes a bad knocking and grinding like noise when I run anything lighter thant 10w-40 I normally run Valvoline vr1 20w 50

 

[Nasty Dream]

mine makes a bad knocking and grinding like noise when I run anything lighter thant 10w-40 I normally run Valvoline vr1 20w 50

Thanks for the tip. I do have some Mobil 1 10w-30 "high mileage" which might be thick enough to do the trick.

Interestingly, I found that the noise is coming through the 'vapor canister' hose (emissions system). The canister is gone; I had a battery leak acid and eat a hole through it ten years ago, and found it wasn't necessary (it traps the fuel fumes to be used to help startup)

During the fuel system overhaul, I had put a filter on the end of the open hose to keep bugs and dirt out of it, and mounted it high up on the firewall, next to the AFPR.

I put my hand over the filter, and it got almost silent. That's where the sound was from. So the problem may have been there for a long time, I just never noticed it before. It may even be normal, for all I know.

Also, it seems to have gone away for the moment. Maybe a small clog cleared somewhere.

I'll change the oil to something thicker and put on my new magnetic Mishimoto oil plug and not worry about it right now.


I just need to fix whatever is causing my engine to run rough and shake when I hold the throttle steady at a any engine speed.

 

[buhay6]

I'm siding with DSM1g90, It definitely sounds like a failed lifter, which is causing a valve to lag which in turn causing the engine to run like poorly. Leaving a failed lifter alone like stated earlier can cause some serious damage to valve tran components. I've ran 5W30 in all my dsm's and never had a tick like that, which is why I believed its a lifter(s) that have failed completely.
You should be doing a process of elimination starting with the most likely to the lest likely that was you completely rule out possibilities as you go.
Once again as stated early new lifters can be had for relatively cheap and its a good idea to just go with the 3g revised lifter to eliminate lifter tick all together. It's a very easy and fast job and as you've said earlier you have the tools and basic mechanical knowledge (which is all I started out with and now I'm doing engine jobs) so that's already a good start.
You could get the tool that someone mentioned earlier to remove the rockers for easy removal and installation of new lifters or remove the timing belt and cam method (which I always do). If you remove the cams you need to unbolt the cam caps in an X pattern (one cam at a time) always starting on one side and going to the farthest one on the opposite side. Make sure to only loosen a half a turn on each bold and go through the process in the same pattern until all cam bolts are backed off loose (Use this method on EVERY engine part cylinder head, mains, cams etc. as it keeps from warping or damaging the parts.)
There's tons of knowledge here don't be afraid to ask for a walk through.