Kosei K1 TS - 17x9

[jtmcinder]

Go ahead and load an 'I told you so'.

Nah. You have a great attitude and I often try things that people tell me not to, just for the experience. But please come back to this thread and post an update once you try it.

- Jtoby

 

[DSMSpyder99]

i must say sir you are brave i have 17x8 (35mm) with 245/40 in the front and 225/45 in the back. Im afraid to get wider tires in the back since im going to do the rear camber mods this weekend. My plan is to put both at about -1.5* (right now its L -2.5/R -2.1). My Tein Coilovers have a spring rate of 346lb/in and i have a 3 finger gap in the back. So its gonna be intresting to see if they hit the fender. If they dont its a good chance a 245/40 will not hit since it is a smaller diameter.

 

[asian312]

Tada!!!

This combination worked like a charm. I can't believe its the same car. I'll leave the rest to the parts review, but in regards to the tires rubbing there is none. I only got to test a little, but over speed bumps, road dips, rail roads, hard breaking, etc. there were no traces of contact on the tire or the fender. The rear Konis did come with two heights for the snap ring and I did use the tallest setting. We'll see how they are on the track when I can really load the corner.

 

[Ludachris]

Are you using stock camber settings at this point? Look forward to hearing your track experiences.

 

[asian312]

Those are completly stock settings and have not been adjusted to account for the 1" drop. I'll probably add a few washers in the rear depending on what I get back from the alignment shop this weekend. The front camber should be fine from what I've read and as long as it doesnt promote too much tire wear, it will be a welcomed

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

Wow, looks great! I think you've convinced me to go with a non-tuck setup. I'll probably be getting 17x9 with a +35-+32 offset and running 255/40 RA1s. You actually might not have enough front camber with such a little drop. I'm about a 1/2 inch lower than you in front and barely have -2 degrees, which is about the minimum you'd want to road race with, especially with R compounds. If I go non-tuck and raise the height, I'll probably get a camber kit to add some front camber.

 

[asian312]

Follow up:

First track day complete with new suspension and tires. The fronts rub more than the rears. The only appearant place on the 2.9 mile track that caused contact was a transition from the banked oval to the in field. Image running up your drive way at 100-120 mph. No cutting on the front, just some rubber on the fender and no extraneous wear on the tires (slight groove forming). On the rears the fender flange did cut into the passenger rear slightly. The cause of this was over inflation for not dropping the pressure in the afternoon from the chilly morning. Rolling the lip should take care of that problem.

The tires have enormous grip and really feel planted when cornering and negotiating the bumps. Suspension cleaned up the oscilation from the blown suspension and makes this 'non-tuck' setup work. All in all, the combination make for an excellant daily driver and nice firm suspension for a track day.

 

[my_precious]

How much power would one have to make to actually see a benefit from tires like these? It adds extra rotating mass and so I'm wondering how much power does a DSM have to have before it can actually benefit from the suburb grip you all keep talking about? I want that car...

edit: did tire rack tell you if they made a K1 (6 spoke) in that size? I've always wanted a uber wide set of flat black K1s.

 

[Ludachris]

How much power would one have to make to actually see a benefit from tires like these? It adds extra rotating mass and so I'm wondering how much power does a DSM have to have before it can actually benefit from the suburb grip you all keep talking about? I want that car...

edit: did tire rack tell you if they made a K1 (6 spoke) in that size? I've always wanted a uber wide set of flat black K1s.

I wouldn't think in terms of having to add power to make up for the additional rotating weight. The added speed you'll be able to maintain through the turns should make up for the added weight alone. It will likely just become more critical to maintain momentum like cars that are underpowered. You should be able to see a benefit at any power level if the suspension system is setup correctly (all things being equal of course).

And I was told the K1 (non-TS) is made in 17x9.

 

[asian312]

You are correct, the older style K1s are not available in this size. It's actually the other way around with the rotational mass. The Kosei with 255 rubber is 7lbs lighter than my stockers with 215. The extra grip allows you to enter the corners much faster than you would be able to on say a 205 or 215. Also the overall diameter is half and inch to an inch smaller which equals better torque and acceleration. I would much rather have too much grip and power on the track. Just ask my slalom instructor...sure try and break traction with this kind of rubber

I switched from my 16g to a 14b since I'm running straight to wastegate without a boost controller at 10psi. This was done to give the car a more liner power band and not the hard hitting powerband normally found on 18psi 50 trims and EVOIII. If I had to make an estimate on power I'd say somewhere around 200 to the wheels. I learned this weekend that an underpowered car is not a bad thing. To be fast it forces you to make better and better turns due to the lack of grunt from the engine. These tires and suspension places my heavy weight some where on par with my brother's Miata. It's completly stock with a larger front sway bar and some grippy pads out front. He can only top a 100mph on the straight, but was giving a good run to the vipers and vettes in our run group. Those drivers didn't concentrate as much in the corner as the HP covered their mistakes on the straight. Give that same Miata some 205 rubber and really hang on for a scary ride!

 

[my_precious]

ok so what would it take to fully utilize the wider rubber? Could you get away with AGXs and prokit springs or is that along the same lines as the H&R springs? Maybe I should sell the springs for some ground controls?

Edit: Did you pay 259 for just the rims? Thats 1036 bucks for all four before taxes and tires...Is it really worth it or could you be faster with lighter 16x7 or 16x8s and more power (assuming it was the same driver in both scenarios).

 

[Ludachris]

I think you're asking the question backwards - what size rubber would it take to fully utilize the suspension setup? Tires are always going to make a huge impact on traction and braking. You'll see instant results. $259 per wheel is actually a really good price for that size and weight. There are only a few other wheel choices out there that would be close.

More contact patch (with proper wheel size of course) is always going to maximize any setup, and can even make up for less than optimal suspension setups. If you have to decide between a new suspension setup and a wheel/tire combo, I'd say go with the wheel/tire combo first. It's going to yield better results. Spend the money on the best wheel/tire combo for what you're trying to do. You'll get more out of it.

But to answer your question, I'd plan on selling the springs at some point and going GC. You'll gain a few benefits - once critical aspect would be room for those wider tires.

Something else to consider - 16" wheels typically aren't big enough for most big brake kits... something you'll eventually want. If you're going to buy a track wheel, buy the right one to give yourself room to upgrade other parts of the car later. Don't force yourself into having to sell a set of wheels when it's time to upgrade the brakes. Bascially, go 17" and save yourself the trouble.

 

[my_precious]

Well the thing is, they haven't even been installed yet. I think those size of wheels/tires is to far out of my budget. Kyle doesnt even have them yet and he's had his car for 8 years so I'm probably just getting ahead of myself.

 

[asian312]

Once again I concur. I worked backwards and just as Chris suggested. The K1-TS also come in 17x8 but for $20 and 1lb. more per corner I gained the option to run 255. 17x8 are limited to 235 and 245. Looking at it from an availability point of view, alot of the nice sticky R-compounds come in either 235/40-45, 245/40-45, and 255/40. Having this ability to a variety of sizes made the choice simple. Try finding another tire in the 16lb range for this size and you'll see that $259 isn't so bad. Plus a little discount from my driving school went a long way

I daily drive my car and I must emphasize the need to have it comfortable. I've driven on a full GC/Koni setup, Tein Flex in a Subbie, and K-Sports on a 2G. It just wouldn't meet the range of DD and track that I wanted. Would a different setup make better sense for track duty, yes. But the original goal was to replace the suspension due to 2 blown dampners and have a suspension that would keep the fenders off the tires. Under extreme circumstances they rub, but nothing that will injure the tire. When this car gets the honor to become track specific, then you better bet that the Koni/H&Rs are coming out.

As for the AGX/Prokits on a 1G I dont know. The H&R springs have a 100lb. more spring rate in the fronts and rears than the Prokits and I'm sure that is helping keep the body off the tire. I can daily drive on this setup without worries. It took a dive bomb off the bank at 100+ mph to touch. At 80-90 it was very faint contact. I'm visiting a friend this weekend that has the same setup on his 1G. I may just take them over there and see how they do.

 

[Ludachris]

Well the thing is, they haven't even been installed yet. I think those size of wheels/tires is to far out of my budget. Kyle doesnt even have them yet and he's had his car for 8 years so I'm probably just getting ahead of myself.

But how long has Kyle really been into autox/road racing? 1-2 years? If you're planning on getting serious start saving for the wheels/tires. I'd put those on before I put on any other suspension parts if I were you. Of course, if you do go 17x9 you'll end up needing stiffer spring rates anyway, so you'll have to save up for wheels/tires plus a GC kit.

If you can't do it now, just get some good tires for your current wheels. It won't be ideal but it will allow you time to save up. Don't spend any money on new wheels until you can afford the right ones. Buying the wrong parts will only cost you more money in the long run.

 

[my_precious]

That'd be great. Chris what do you think about the prokit/agx being an owner of a first gen yourself. I'm sure you've tryed numerous suspensions with the car along the way. The thing Im having trouble with is either throwing the stock wheels and my used goodyear eagle gt2s (look like normal all surface tires nothing special) and buying bigger wider wheels and tires or buying some 16s that I could get sooner OR go with the power and get a big 16g. I know i need to concentrate on getting the car finished, an alignment, and the wheels balanced, but that will take hardly any money and after that maybe I should keep my current stuff and just spend the money on track days in the spring. I dont know but I'm starting to hijack the thread , I love the wheels and I'd really like to see how your car performs on R compound slicks.

EDIT: posting while watching tv = chris beating me to post

 

[asian312]

Your on the right track. Seat time is worth 100 times more than parts. Work within your budget to keep the car maintained and then go hit the track. Learning on stock size tires provides limits that not only teach you how to be smooth to make them work, but also decreases the entry speed at which you can take a corner which translate into less dangerous situation should something happen.

Getting competitive requires money and while all of us have aspirations of racing, there are many steps before that. Seat time is the biggest factor as it builds the driver with good fundamentals and provides the experience to handle different situations. Big tires doesn't over come the intructor in the rental Neon.

 

[my_precious]

Yeah for my suspension I have brand new kyb's and prokit springs (installed but never used) and a full energy suspension bushing and motor mount kit. I was also going to put on some Hawk pads and new rotors before the track. then the only other thing I planned on doing was tires and rims suspension wise.

 

[Ludachris]

Honestly man, I don't like the Prokit and AGX combo for the track. It's fine for a daily driver to give the car a nice looking stance, but I'm much, MUCH happier with my Konis and Ground Control. I don't think people should go with that combo for serious autocross, road race, or track events. It's more for a street car driven by someone who isn't really that into really good handling. A lot of drag racers will use it. If you're even a little bit serious about good handling, save up for the Konis. Trust me. Even if you have to buy the fronts first and the rears later.

I wish I didn't waste time and money going with the Prokits/AGX/GR2s to replace the blown AGXs, etc. All the money and effort I put in using those inferior setups would have been better served if I had just saved up a little more money and got the right setup in the first place. I still have to put Konis on the rear, but the AGXs are actually holding up okay at the moment.

 

[mavisky]

I couldn't agree more Chris. I'm currently stuck on the old AGX/Sportline combo which was all I could afford back then and I'm hoping to replace it with a GC/Koni kit of my own as these spring rates and shocks just aren't working out for me.

 

[my_precious]

that is jacked up dude. I asked you awhile back what you recomend and you said AGX and eibach prokits....way to go kyle

Oh well I supose I'll just use them anyways and become a better driver with an inferior set up so that when I go with COIL OVERS I'll be flyin.

 

[mavisky]

I've always suggested them to people on an extreme budget because they are better than stock and the gr2's aren't even worth wasting time with. They're a $500 combo as compared to a $1100-1200 combo for GC's and Koni's as compared to a $2000 JIC or Hotbits setup.

 

[my_precious]

ohlins FTW... do they even make a suspension for our cars? I am on a tight budget but the car already has KYBs on it (gt2 i think...no adjustability) and it handles like its on rails compaired to other cars I've driven. I figure the KYBs adjusted to max stiffness will work wonders. Then when I can afford things like 17x9 in tires, stop tech brakes and coil overs like ol poop has on his car then I think I'd be way faster just from experience on making the DSM fast on the agx's. For me though, Konis would have only been 200-300 dollars more compaired to like 500 now if i sell my old stuff.