is e85 and water/meth pointless?

[dsm-onster]

And to add, concering e85 and cooling of the aircharge. . . It may be in the intake track for a very short period of time. It is also in the combustion chamber for as brief a time. But as it tumbles in (our heads display a relatively good tumble for our stroke, IMHO) and through out the compression stroke, including squish episode, it becomes HIGHLY atomized and fully permeates through out the charge. Every bit of aircharge that's in the intercooler pipes must see the combustion chamber. And you have +3,000cc/min of e85 bouncing around in there to absorbe the heat. It makes a diffrence. e85 has a typical octane of 105 in the summer. But it seams to be at least as knock resistant is +110 race fuels. The realistic explanation is that it IS doing a great deal of cooling just in the little portion of intake track and the little bit of time in the combustion chamber. And why Donnie apparently doesn't dislike the stock sidemount as much as I when I was running pump gas .

 

[TSi Kid]

. . .And to repeat for emphasis, take advantage of an affordable ADJUSTABLE hobbs switch in line with your injection feed line after any injection solenoids; series into battery power with your now useless stock fpr or egr solenoid. So that when the solenoid is not active, the boost signal shunts directly to the gate actuator. There's a million and one ways to do it with the useless solenoids right under the hood. And there will be no issues with pump failure, or solenoid activation failure, or even brain failure in checking the reservoir. It will NOT however prevent issues from a clogged nozzle. You'll just have to use distilled water (if you're running water/alky mix) and pure meth, with quality feed line materials plus filter to prevent a nozzle clog. And I always check the nozzle when I check the oil. Locate it for easy access.

I'll have to look into it some more, because it does seem like an interesting setup to run. As for now, being the broke college student, i'll be doing what mods I can but I will definitely be keeing an alcohol/meth setup in mind. Screw the intercooler

And to add, concering e85 and cooling of the aircharge. . . IT may be in the intake track for a very short period of time. It is also in the combustion chamber for as breif a time. But as it tumbles in (our heads display a relatively good tumble for our stroke, IMHO) and through out the compression stroke, including squish episode, it becomes HIGHLY atomized and fully permeates through out the charge. Every bit of aircharge that's in the intercooler pipes must see the combustion chamber. And you have +3,000cc/min of e85 bouncing around in there to absorbe the heat. It makes a diffrence. e85 has a typical octane of 105 in the summer. But it seams to be at least as knock resistant is +110 race fuels. The realistic explination is that it IS doing a great deal of cooling just in the little portion of intake track and the little bit of time in the combustion chamber.

So how much better would it be to run e98/meth as opposed to a front mount e85/water/meth/intercooler?

 

[donniekak]

I'll have to look into it some more, because it does seem like an interesting setup to run. As for now, being the broke college student, i'll be doing what mods I can but I will definitely be keeing an alcohol/meth setup in mind. Screw the intercooler



So how much better would it be to run e98/meth as opposed to a front mount e85/water/meth/intercooler?

One of the main benefits to running meth out here, is you can keep your a/c. I have never been able to get a front mount, and a/c to work together out here, when temps 2' off the road are 125+.

Believe me, i don't doubt meth works. I just hate blowing my car up. I don't need another system to keep tabs on. I've already blown head gaskets from a bad alternator, and every other weird type failure possible.

If i was stuck with 91 octane, i would run meth, and probably larger turbo's. But to me, the added complexity of a meth system doesn't justify using it on an already 85% alcohol powered car.

 

[TSi Kid]

I've already blown head gaskets from a bad alternator, and every other weird type failure possible.

I remember that, it looked like you took an m80 to it.

I just think it would a nice step from the norm sometime later down the road. With my luck my lines would get clogged the night I hooked it up. I have to worst luck with my car .

 

[cantgo2fast]

Completly off topic, go start your own thread.

the topic is

"e85 and water/meth pointless?"

I think i asked poignant questions with regard to running a water/meth kit on a race car or DD. the HP gain is NOT the only thing to consider when doing something like this. weight and ease of use are something I would consider if I were going to run E85 and meth

 

[TSi Kid]

What about a setup for a roadracing car I feel like you would need a big ass tank if you were going to run 15-20 laps at 2minutes a piece for a whole race weekend? Or you would need to bring a lot and fill it up everytime you brought it in

This seems like it would be an amazing setup for drag and autocross cars with the gain in responsiveness.

What does one of those systems weigh?? full tank lines and pump? vs a air to air intercooler? that would be an interesting comparison.

Sorry for all the questions im very intrigued by using alternatives to race gas, might be something I do for a living actually

Your first question wasn't bad, it was the weight/autocross which would be a tad off topic since this is for a DD.

For weight its going to depend on the kit you choose and how much meth/water or just meth you plan on driving with. Devils own and Aqua Mist are the two most popular kits if i'm not mistaken.

 

[cantgo2fast]

That wasn't actually a question, thats what the period was for. Race cars have been used as examples multiple times throughout this thread.

My car is a DD and weight is something I consider for every part i put on it. Weight is the arch enemy of going fast in just about every way.

For the devilsown kit without a tank shipping weight is 15lbs but 5gallons of pure meth weighs 33lbs making a whole setup almost 50lbs. water and meth would be heavier. Something to consider vs an intercooler. Shipping weight on mine was ~25lbs.

 

[dsm-onster]

Who runs a 5 gal paintbucket full of meth ???

My 2 gal is fine on average. But like I said. I'm spiratic. One week I go through less than a gal the next I go through three. So for the average, when I am frequently driving I use a little under two gallons. I've gotten away with it not activating until after 10psi. When I frequently drive, it is about 24miles round trip once a day for 6 days.MY car doesn't need 10psi to accelerate in a normal fashion. Meth is there only when I want it.

I don't autox or do other circuit racing. I would expect you to go through the meth much quicker powering through corners frequently. For drag racing? just bring the meth in the barrel. Some tracks sell it on site. Fill up what you need for the run, if the small weight is paramount. You can't go through a gallon of meth in 20seconds. But even with the weight you mentioned, 50lbs is around .05 seconds different as a very general rule of thumb. and feels like about 5hp difference. That's for 50lbs of kit and meth.

My shuflo pump weighs an astounding 1/2lb and 2 gal of meth = 13.2lbs. Solenoids, poly hoses, nozzles weigh nothing (well the few grams of the 2-3 nozzles and solenoid and hobbs switch add up to . . . a few grams. Poly hoses are not like fuel injection hose). Everything is under 15lbs. I primarily use everything from aquastealt.com, and my activation/control weighs nothing; I use Link.

I wonder the weight of short rout piping, couplers, clamps, and a decently sized FMIC. Some kits run steel piping. I figure my injection kit vs, a nice FMIC kit offsets the weight of my holset vs. other similar turbos .

 

[TSi Kid]

For the devilsown kit without a tank shipping weight is 15lbs but 5gallons of pure meth weighs 33lbs making a whole setup almost 50lbs. water and meth would be heavier. Something to consider vs an intercooler. Shipping weight on mine was ~25lbs

also consider the weight you're getting rid of with that heavy intercooler, if you have a good one, and all the excess routing piping.

My shuflo pump weighs an astounding 1/2lb and 2 gal of meth = 13.2lbs. Solenoids, poly hoses, nozzles weigh nothing (well the few grams of the 2-3 nozzles and solenoid and hobbs switch add up to . . . a few grams. Poly hoses are not like fuel injection hose). Everything is under 15lbs.

Did you buy a kit or piece together your own?

 

[dsm-onster]

I pieced together my setup originally. But at first I was running fuel injection hose, a NO-NO with methanol. I bought a check valve with the proper crack pressure and didn't run a solenoid. I bought the hobbs switch to activate the kit for my other setups. Moved this kit over to my dsm, and like a good dsm would, it showed several problems. My check valve kept clogging, so I swapped to better hose from aquastealth. I wanted better control, so I ditched the hobbs switch for the nitrous controls in Link. And then got a solenoid from aquastealth and went ahead and got another pressure switch from them too. I moved the old hobbs switch to the injection line to make a safety control. And have a spare pressure switch that I'm thinking about using for activating a second pre turbo nozzle, down the road. I found out over the phone that my original shurflo pump I bought was the same one supplied in the aquastealth kit too. So In all I ended up with the pressure activated aquastealth kit over the years .



****EDIT: well no one really spoke up about what nozzle flow Lucas English's 16g car had. He was running 850s and he said directly that his meth accounted for '30% of his total fuel flow'. So CLEARLY he wasn't resorting to inundating the aircharge with methanol. And that was with a turbo off the map and clearly BELOW 60% efficiency so much higher than 260ºF charge temps at the compressor outlet.

 

[TSi Kid]

I pieced together my setup originally. But at first I was running fuel injection hose, a NO-NO with methanol. I bought a check valve with the proper crack pressure and didn't run a solenoid. I bought the hobbs switch to activate the kit for my other setups. Moved this kit over to my dsm, and like a good dsm would, it showed several problems. My check valve kept clogging, so I swapped to better hose from aquastealth. I wanted better control, so I ditched the hobbs switch for the nitrous controls in Link. And then got a solenoid from aquastealth and went ahead and got another pressure switch from them too. I moved the old hobbs switch to the injection line to make a safety control. And have a spare pressure switch that I'm thinking about using for activating a second pre turbo nozzle, down the road. I found out over the phone that my original shurflo pump I bought was the same one supplied in the aquastealth kit too. So In all I ended up with the pressure activated aquastealth kit over the years .

Haha i'll look into them then. I've never really heard about them though, mostly aquamist and devils own.

 

[dsm-onster]

The owner has a pretty quick EVO. . . It's on the top of the website: aquastealth.com.

 

[We're on Boost]

With my luck my lines would get clogged the night I hooked it up. I have to worst luck with my car .

The current crop of "failsafe" wmi kits come with a flow sensor (flow, not pressure) that goes in the water line. If the flow rate is outside of the range of values expected by the wmi controller, the pump will shut off, and the controller will send a signal to either your electronic boost controller to reduce boost, or to your engine management system which will of course have dual maps with on-the-fly map switching and will switch to a non-wmi map "instantly" before anything bad happens.
This protects you from clogged nozzles, blown lines, empty tanks, etc.

Up until only about a year ago, the wmi pumps used had a funky way of regulating the pressure at the pump outlet. It resulted in a wavy up and down pressure in the line, not smoothly regulated at all. This is bad if you are injecting a large % of meth, where the injected meth is a significant part of your fueling. The newest pumps do the regulating a different, better way, and also put out higher pressure.

Before you spend any money on a system, take a look at this thread in evom. There are some things worth knowing about in here, also in the thread that it is in response to:

50k miles of alcohol injection and no cracked pistons! Cheap alky kits exposed. - evolutionm.net

A primary topic in these threads was the problem of getting even distribution to all 4 cylinders, when you are spraying from just one or 2 nozzles. Part of the solution was to put your nozzle far away from the throttle body so the fluid injected has more time to partially vaporize, with the remainder becoming a finer aerosol. Nozzle location at the intercooler outlet seemed to be the way to go. There was no discussion about going intercoolerless.

Another big topic was having a solenoid valve in the water line very near the nozzle, to turn the flow on and off without delay. This eliminates dribbling after pump shutoff, which could otherwise be considerable if your pump is way back in the trunk, due mostly to ballooning of the nylon line, and some to pump inertia.

 

[TSi Kid]

The current crop of "failsafe" wmi kits come with a flow sensor (flow, not pressure) that goes in the water line. If the flow rate is outside of the range of values expected by the wmi controller, the pump will shut off, and the controller will send a signal to either your electronic boost controller to reduce boost, or to your engine management system which will of course have dual maps with on-the-fly map switching and will switch to a non-wmi map "instantly" before anything bad happens.

I was honestly thinking why no body had done that yet
If I was going to go with a setup it would have to be that one because that one seems much more reliable.

 

[kidtsi]

I'm using e85+100% meth injection, due to both being similar on cooling and help on knock, i use it as a insurance if my meth pump go out my e85 its still there.

 

[TSi Kid]

why do people do a 50/50 of water and meth instead of 100% meth?

 

[kidtsi]

why do people do a 50/50 of water and meth instead of 100% meth?

Because it helps more, the meth do the octane and the water the cooling, im using 100 meth, because water contaminates E85.

 

[TSi Kid]

How much of a difference did you see when you did 100% meth in comparison to just e85?

 

[kidtsi]

How much of a difference did you see when you did 100% meth in comparison to just e85?

I was using 50/50 before using E85, but havent tried E85 alone.
I just noticed your username

 

[We're on Boost]

why do people do a 50/50 of water and meth instead of 100% meth?

Well, there are some reasons. Most of the wmi kit manufacturers recommend 50/50, I think mostly for safety reasons. They are probably thinking about what happens if 100% meth gets loose under the hood due to a popped fitting or whatever. Even 50/50 is flammable, technically speaking. But it's a lot harder to light than 100%.
But also, water has a much higher heat of vaporization than any alky does. That means it absorbs a lot more heat from its surroundings when it changes from liquid to vapor. It's a factor of 2 or 3 more, I forget, but quite a bit. So water does cool pretty well. Having some meth in the water should help the water atomize and vaporize better, because meth has such a high vapor pressure compared to water at the same temp. Think fizzy water. So the water and the meth help each other, are complimentary in a way.

Don't count out 100% water either. Richard L, the aquamist inventor, made his business go based on 100% water injection systems on wrc rally cars, according to what he says in that evom thread. He says it was crap at first when they had the nozzle right near the T body. Then they moved the nozzle to the intercooler outlet and all of a sudden it worked great. The other wrc teams did the same thing, within a few weeks they all had their nozzles moved.
Some time later water injection was outlawed from wrc. It must have worked! They run gasoline though.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

Because it helps more, the meth do the octane and the water the cooling, im using 100 meth, because water contaminates E85.

Incorrect. Meth vaporizes pulling energy out of the charged air, with the amounts people are injecting, it has very little affect on octane. Water moisture combats predetonation.

The mix together is much less flammable than 100% methanol.

 

[kidtsi]

Incorrect. Meth vaporizes pulling energy out of the charged air, with the amounts people are injecting, it has very little affect on octane. Water moisture combats predetonation.

The mix together is much less flammable than 100% methanol.

Then its very little not incorrect, a vendor told me.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

Then its very little not incorrect, a vendor told me.

Really? You're going to trust a vendor over researching it yourself? The only vendor I would trust in this matter would be Devilsperm

 

[kidtsi]

Really? You're going to trust a vendor over researching it yourself? The only vendor I would trust in this matter would be Devilsperm

That one is him.

I know for a fact that Meth act as an octane, even if it is very little it does.

Why some people sometimes inject pure methanol without fuel whatsoever just methanol? people that run straight methanol are just running with energy and air mixture?
I was just trying to explain to him the simplest way of how it works, if i tell him "Meth vaporizes pulling energy out of the charged air" he is gonna be like wow whats that! For me acted as an octane too, because 25% of my fuel was methanol, leaving me with an 98 to 100+ octane. Some people say its 110 but its incorrect for what you mention above "how people are injecting it" which is like 12% of its fuel so the octane is more or less 95.

 

[TSi Kid]

I just noticed your username

Haha thats pretty legit.

I was just trying to explain to him the simplest way of how it works, if i tell him "Meth vaporizes pulling energy out of the charged air" he is gonna be like wow whats that! For me acted as an octane too, because 25% of my fuel was methanol, leaving me with an 98 to 100+ octane. Some people say its 110 but its incorrect for what you mention above "how people are injecting it" which is like 12% of its fuel so the octane is more or less 95.

Hey i'm majoring in engineering so I know big phrases too .

What's better for the car then, the 100% cooling of water or the 100% usage of meth?