is e85 and water/meth pointless?

[TSi Kid]

I know e85 is much cooler and a higher octance then pump gas but now i'm not too sure about running a water/meth injection with it

Ethenol is already cool enough and from everything I've read it seems pointless to run a water/meth setup in addition to it because in the end all you'd be getting is a little cooler of an intake charge

Is there no real point to running water/meth on e85 and should my money be spend else where?

 

[MY1GDSM]

Yes IMHO it would be pointless Not that you couldn't gain anything in some cases but you would have to be push your car very hard IMO to need it or make any use of it. IMHO I think the money spent on a Meth Injection kit would Be better spent on a good set of cams or something else you could gain more power for the amount of money for most people... .Also Your opening your self up to more risks with Meth Inj. Hit your rev limit while spraying or have something go wrong w/ the meth pump and you could chuck a rod out the block...

 

[TSi Kid]

yeah i'm just going to start putting money away for me head rebuild instead
ethenol is enough for me

 

[dsm-onster]

Take a look at the English Racing 16g car before you conclude that meth injection isn't worth it with e85. And he was running e98.

 

[96awd]

They cancel each other out due to the coolant factor. so yes it's pointless

 

[donniekak]

Take a look at the English Racing 16g car before you conclude that meth injection isn't worth it with e85. And he was running e98.

They also ditched that setup for an intercooled setup, after it blew up.

 

[TSi Kid]

Take a look at the English Racing 16g car before you conclude that meth injection isn't worth it with e85. And he was running e98

i don't mean that theres no gain but that unless you're trying to squeeze every last power out of a turbo my money would better be spend else where (i like my e3 but not that much)

 

[UofACATS]

i don't mean that theres no gain but that unless you're trying to squeeze every last power out of a turbo my money would better be spend else where (i like my e3 but not that much)

E85 and meth/water injection is most beneficial for hotpiped cars, otherwise meth injection or E85 is usually sufficient. Especially on a street car.

They also ditched that setup for an intercooled setup, after it blew up.

That's correct, but it wasn't a direct fault of running meth injection with no intercooler.

And they did run 10s on a auto 16G car, which is pretty cool

 

[TSi Kid]

E85 and meth/water injection is most beneficial for hotpiped cars, otherwise meth injection or E85 is usually sufficient. Especially on a street car.

i can understand using it if i was trying to max out my 16g but i do not plan on doing so

ASU>UofA nuff said

 

[donniekak]

That's correct, but it wasn't a direct fault of running meth injection with no intercooler.

And they did run 10s on a auto 16G car, which is pretty cool

It was a direct effect of what happens when you are running 2 fuel systems and 1 of them fails. To get a benefit from meth+e85, you need a lot of meth, to take advantage of that you need an aggressive tune. All that adds up to a catastrophic failure when either system has a problem.

Meth is best used as a stand alone fuel. Injection of a fluid vapor into a manifold that was not designed as a wet manifold is a problem in and of itself. Not to mention the accuracy of the supplemental fueling of a mpi system from a nozzle. Meth injection is a good way to stretch low octane pumpgas, if you are careful. There are way better ways to fuel a race car.

 

[dsm-onster]

Meth is best used as a stand alone fuel. Injection of a fluid vapor into a manifold that was not designed as a wet manifold is a problem in and of itself. Not to mention the accuracy of the supplemental fueling of a mpi system from a nozzle. Meth injection is a good way to stretch low octane pumpgas, if you are careful. There are way better ways to fuel a race car.

It was NOT a direct effect of installing a meth kit when running ethanol. Period. It was simply that one system failed. Yes you double the risk of a fuel system failing because you double the systems. But it's very worth it to most want/chasing records and /or wanting the absolute most out of their setup.. . And as I recall, it was an overworked single wally 255hp pump that failed. If he were running race gas and an intercooler larger than his total drag area, he would have blown that block to he!!.

English couldn't hold the boost with an intercooler that he could without. No one has dodged the same bullet of 'failed meth kit leading to engine destruction' when running pump gas intercooler and meth injection either. Come on. Pump gas and meth can give you 30+ psi boost with a +60mm turbo and 10s. IF the meth flow fails, you're fvcked with pumpgas and intercooler just the same. Sorry, same boat. If english was running race gas, it still would have happened. If he was running an intercooler, then he would have never seen the record.


So, . . . you run the risk of blowing sh!t up because you can have a meth injection failure. Which is rare in itself. . . And yet with meth injection you get aircharge temps below ambient WITHOUT an intercooler, plus a little more fuel to play with. And NOT having an intercooler gives you much more flow, at least when you've reached the limit of your compressor. . . For me? I just like the sleeper look of not having a gargantuan FMIC. It's simply a waste of space for a prperly incorporated e85 + meth injection setup.

 

[TSi Kid]

I just like the sleeper look of not having a gargantuan FMIC. It's simply a waste of space for a prperly incorporated e85 + meth injection setup.

I was under the impression that you have to be running alcohol+ meth to get rid of a front mount
in arizona temperatures with no ac would running e85 and meth be possible? (getting rid of the front mount)

 

[2gGSX]

And yet with meth injection you get aircharge temps below ambient WITHOUT an intercooler, plus a little more fuel to play with.

In case anyone was reading this and thinks "z I must run meth to get below ambient charge temps", you are not going to be spraying any typical amount of methanol to accomplish this.

It's easier to explain via a simple example--assuming temperature outlet temps of 260*F (30 psi boost, 80* ambient temps, 70% compressor efficiency) and you flow 50 lb/min of air (roughly 1.012 J/gK heat capacity). If you want to get that down to 80*F, you will have to remove 2300 kJ of energy from the intake charge (9184 kJ at 260*F - 6887 kJ at 80*F) which will require 2.08 kg of methanol/min, or ~2600 cc/min of methanol. This is just to get charge temps down to AMBIENT from meth alone. The E85/98 through the traditional injectors will help some, but the effect on charge temps is not as efficient due to less time/lack of exposure.

A kit from Devil's Own comes with a 3 and 7 gph nozzle. 2600 cc/min translates to over 41 gph. Therefore, short of essentially flooding your charge piping with methanol, you will not see a 140 degree drop in intake temps.


Cliff's notes: do not compare your street car to something like English's racecar

 

[TSi Kid]

how is it then that there are street cars that do run that setup?
i don't plan on doing this but i think learning about how all this works is fascinating

 

[UofACATS]

i can understand using it if i was trying to max out my 16g but i do not plan on doing so

ASU>UofA nuff said

You don't have to be planning to max out anything, just run a hotpiped 16G.

And don't bring that trash

require ~2600 cc/min of methanol.

Thats a lot of meth, but the title of thread is e85 and water/meth. Can we do the math on W/I? Maybe 50/50?

This is just to get charge temps down to AMBIENT

I don't need ambient, just whatever will give me a stock timing map with no intercooler. (I don't know what that is)

 

[TSi Kid]

You don't have to be planning to max out anything, just run a hotpiped 16G.

And don't bring that trash

from what i've been reading its a little over kill right? i'm not saying you wont see benefits but my money would be better spend else where

 

[UofACATS]

from what i've been reading its a little over kill right? i'm not saying you wont see benefits but my money would be better spend else where

You're running a FMIC yes? Just run e85 you'll be able to run plenty of boost/timing.

 

[TSi Kid]

i still want to look into how you could run e98, meth, and no front mount
just want to understand the concept behind it which 2gGSX did a great job explaining

 

[2gGSX]

Thats a lot of meth, but the title of thread is e85 and water/meth. Can we do the math on W/I? Maybe 50/50?

I don't need ambient, just whatever will give me a stock timing map with no intercooler. (I don't know what that is)

Skipping the explanation, you would need ~12 gph of a 50/50 mix of water and meth (enthalpy of vaporization of water is over 2x that of methanol, plus it has a higher specific gravity; ~13% higher).

The problem is that water has a higher surface tension due to the nature of hydrogen bonds (72.80 mN/m @ 20*C, ~58 mN/m @ 120*C vs 22.70 mN/m at 20*C, ~15 mN/m at 120*C). I don't know whether or not this would affect its ability to aersolize, but if it does then a surfactant added should show some benefits.

Furthermore, you have to consider that this is all under 100% efficiency, with a full conversion between liquid-->gas and perfectly pulling energy out of the intake charge vs. say the charge piping.

i still want to look into how you could run e98, meth, and no front mount
just want to understand the concept behind it which 2gGSX did a great job explaining

Any combination of cooling the intake charge and high octane values (among the other benefits of an alcohol fuel) will allow you to do it.

Someone tried this a couple of years back (http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/nit...7-official-no-fmic-meth-how-well-will-do.html) and posted some interesting results. With an M5 pre-turbo and an M7 by the turbo outlet, he went from 130*+ cruising IATs to 120-130* IATs on a 70* day. His outlet temps (not accounting for wet compression.. not sure what that does) should theoretically be ~230*F. He did not mention his airflow since he was on SD, but estimating 40-50 lbs/min means he removed 1000-1200 kJ/min.

I had stated that a 12 gph setup of 50/50 water/meth should theoretically remove ~2300 kJ of energy. I would postulate that Glen tested out the setup, and thus the efficiency of energy transfer I mentioned above is around 48% +4% or so.

All that was from one data set from one trial run by one person that probably wasn't scientifically controlled to exclude confunders, so take that for what you will. I also realized I posted the exact same stuff in that thread.. good to see I haven't learned anything new in 2 years.

 

[TSi Kid]

i'll have to look into that then. it seems like something fun to try over the summer (when temperatures about 110)

good to see I haven't learned anything new in 2 years.

go do some more research!

 

[dsm-onster]

In case anyone was reading this and thinks "z I must run meth to get below ambient charge temps", you are not going to be spraying any typical amount of methanol to accomplish this.

It's easier to explain via a simple example--assuming temperature outlet temps of 260*F (30 psi boost, 80* ambient temps, 70% compressor efficiency) and you flow 50 lb/min of air (roughly 1.012 J/gK heat capacity). If you want to get that down to 80*F, you will have to remove 2300 kJ of energy from the intake charge (9184 kJ at 260*F - 6887 kJ at 80*F) which will require ****** 2.08 kg of methanol/min, or ~2600 cc/min ****** of methanol. This is just to get charge temps down to AMBIENT from meth alone. The E85/98 through the traditional injectors will help some, but the effect on charge temps is not as efficient due to less time/lack of exposure.

A kit from Devil's Own comes with a 3 and 7 gph nozzle. 2600 cc/min translates to over 41 gph. Therefore, short of essentially flooding your charge piping with methanol, you will not see a 140 degree drop in intake temps.


Cliff's notes: do not compare your street car to something like English's racecar

This is really simple: 1lb = 2.2046kg and 1gal of meth = 6.63lbs. so:

2.08kg/min ÷ 2.2046 kg/lb = 0.94lb/min. And, 0.94lb/min ÷ 6.63lb/gal = 0.14gal/min. And, 0.14gal/min × 60min = 8.4gal/hr , NOT 41gal/hr

Oh . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . So an m3 and an m7 (10gal/hr) IS enough on it's own to lower temps to 80ºF assuming inefficiencies (8.4gal/hr is all that's required based on your math not subject to any inefficiency).

Looks like the Devils own kit has it about right for an fp3052 or 8blade hx35 (52lb/min).

****EDIT: . . . .Cliffs notes: I run a hotair GN ('85 regal T) on the streets and used to run an 85.5 Turbo Coup on the streets. Both overworked turbos (30-35ish lb/min compressors) using 3 m3 nozzles in my Aquastealth kit (Same kit on both cars). The intake manifolds sweat in the right conditions. Well below ambient temps wouldn't you say. And goes along with the revision of your above calculations.


Thanks! Your math, barring your one small but incredibly important error, fully explains how my street cars see below ambient temps with commonly used nozzle flows. So if you have half an intercooler, 'Z You must run meth so you can get those below ambient aircharge temps everyone else is getting'.

 

[2gGSX]

This is really simpe: 1lb = 2.2046kg

That is backwards:

2.08 kg/min x 60 min/hr = 124.8 kg/hr = 124800 g/hr x mL/0.7918g x L/1000mL = 157.6 L/hr x gal/3.78L = 41.7 gal/hr (~2600 cc/min).

Condensation on the outside of your manifold may not be indicative of the intake charge being cold--only your manifold itself. I personally prefer quantitative data like Glen's IAT findings.

Edit: Asians cannot be wrong at math

 

[Boosted98gsx]

at matt trying engineering and failing miserably with conversion ratios.

It's voodoo witchcraft after all.

 

[dsm-onster]

Andy no one asked you . He's bringing empirical data forward to support his calculations. Not: 'computer modelling of manifold said so.'

That is backwards:

2.08 kg/min x 60 min/hr = 124.8 kg/hr = 124800 g/hr x mL/0.7918g x L/1000mL = 157.6 L/hr x gal/3.78L = 41.7 gal/hr (~2600 cc/min).

Condensation on the outside of your manifold may not be indicative of the intake charge being cold--only your manifold itself. I personally prefer quantitative data like Glen's IAT findings.

Edit: Asians cannot be wrong at math

bah! I messed that up big time My way comes out to the same number as yours. . . Hmmm, I wonder what a relatively efficient IC plus meth injection will net based on calculation ????

 

[TSi Kid]

Asians cannot be wrong at math

It's voodoo witchcraft after all

greatest thing i've seen all day