is e85 and water/meth pointless?

[dsm-onster]

If you knew the background, you would know that "voodoo" refers to really making it work, where as Andy really hasn't in his personal educational endevours, though comical guarantees of results on his part have been subsequent to his classes (which many of us have already thoroughly completed). And, the math supporting it only shows that opinion flows in math just as well as any other view point. . . The only thing that stands out here is truely the great empirical data by Glenn. And math that supports it doesn't mean math works half the time. I have plenty of math and supposition as a consequence supporting the rate of absorbtion of the heat with highly atomized methanol vs. a good intercoooler and it's specific heat. But that's all math and opinion.

Results are this: the intake manifold sweats after meth injection of proper amounts, and never does before. Therefore, only the introduction of the substance accounts for the sweating. Why would a substance introduced make the aluminum maifold sweat, which constitutes the same material as an intercooler; and not supercool the air to which it was introduced with a much better absorption property (higher specific heat)? Simple logic is what's being thrown around, since math is the useage of the thread. So answer to yourself what is the heat absorbtion value of aluminum, the surface area of the aluminum in question and the surfaces value and heat absorbtion of the mass airflow and methanol injection in question. How can the air NOT be colder than the suroundings when the manifold sweats?


It's all voodoo, unless you give a scientific equation to prove otherwise according to the above. And further contributing to voodoo, what was Lucas English's total nozzle size? Actually, what was his total airflow?

 

[TSi Kid]

There has to be an equation for it though, there's an equation for everything. It's just taking in the different factors that contribute to the charge and "sweat".

I mean has there really be no one who has number chrunched and broken down this into a theoretical problem that takes into account the different factors? I know you said that you have done the math but you disregarded it as opinion.

 

[donniekak]

And further contributing to voodoo, what was Lucas English's total nozzle size? Actually, what was his total airflow?

I think the least voodoo solution to this problem, is the people who ran the e85/meth 16g car, decided it better to go to an air to air intercooler, and the car was faster.

 

[2gGSX]

Results are this: the intake manifold sweats after meth injection of proper amounts, and never does before. Therefore, only the introduction of the substance accounts for the sweating. Why would a substance introduced make the aluminum maifold sweat, which constitutes the same material as an intercooler; and not supercool the air to which it was introduced with a much better absorption property (higher specific heat)? Simple logic is what's being thrown around, since math is the useage of the thread. So answer to yourself what is the heat absorbtion value of aluminum, the surface area of the aluminum in question and the surfaces value and heat absorbtion of the mass airflow and methanol injection in question. How can the air NOT be colder than the suroundings when the manifold sweats?


It's all voodoo, unless you give a scientific equation to prove otherwise according to the above. And further contributing to voodoo, what was Lucas English's total nozzle size? Actually, what was his total airflow?

The thermal conductivity of air at 293K is 0.025 W/(mK). Aluminum/cast iron/stainless steel at 293K is ~204, ~55, ~16.3 respectively. Assuming intercooler piping made of mild steel, the value should be around 50-70, which is a 2000-2800 fold increase in thermal conductivity over air. This value does vary with temperature, but it will not cause a significant change. Thus, the cooling effect will be much more pronounced on the metal pipe than on the intake charge.

The only thing necessary for condensation to form on the manifold is that air near the manifold decreases in temperature past the dew point--that is to say, it proves that the manifold itself is getting colder, but not necessarily that the air inside is cold enough to cause this condensation. From the discussion on thermal conductivity above, you can see that there can be a significant difference between temperature of the pipe and the intake charge inside.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

If you knew the background, you would know that "voodoo" refers to really making it work, where as Andy really hasn't in his personal educational endevours, though comical guarantees of results on his part have been subsequent to his classes (which many of us have already thoroughly completed). And, the math supporting it only shows that opinion flows in math just as well as any other view point. . . The only thing that stands out here is truely the great empirical data by Glenn. And math that supports it doesn't mean math works half the time. I have plenty of math and supposition as a consequence supporting the rate of absorbtion of the heat with highly atomized methanol vs. a good intercoooler and it's specific heat. But that's all math and opinion.

Results are this: the intake manifold sweats after meth injection of proper amounts, and never does before. Therefore, only the introduction of the substance accounts for the sweating. Why would a substance introduced make the aluminum maifold sweat, which constitutes the same material as an intercooler; and not supercool the air to which it was introduced with a much better absorption property (higher specific heat)? Simple logic is what's being thrown around, since math is the useage of the thread. So answer to yourself what is the heat absorbtion value of aluminum, the surface area of the aluminum in question and the surfaces value and heat absorbtion of the mass airflow and methanol injection in question. How can the air NOT be colder than the suroundings when the manifold sweats?


It's all voodoo, unless you give a scientific equation to prove otherwise according to the above. And further contributing to voodoo, what was Lucas English's total nozzle size? Actually, what was his total airflow?

How the hell are you a "wiseman" again?

 

[dsm-onster]

For the same reasons you are not, Andy . Certainly not what you REALLY think is the reason.

Good stuff, Tom!!!!

Donnie, English's car was faster with a bigger turbo. . .

 

[Car Cannibal]

I run a setup that is No Intercooler, E85 and twin nozzles of Meth with Preturbo, they all work great together. And saves you $$ vs an FMIC with Race Gas.

To best answer OP's question, if you had an MAT sensor you'd know how much Meth to add to get the temps in the proper range even with an FMIC. So Meth has a benefit along with E85 as E85 doesn't reduce MAT temps that much, especially on Fuel Injected cars.

Knowing how to tune the combo is the key here like any other aspect of Racing.

Lucas is the first DSM to do this, but it's been going on for years in other FI cars, especially Big Blocks. It works and works well.

 

[donniekak]

For the same reasons you are not, Andy . Certainly not what you REALLY think is the reason.

Good stuff, Tom!!!!

Donnie, English's car was faster with a bigger turbo. . .

I'm just biased. I don't like the thought of adding yet another system into the mix on cars making over 100hp per hole.

 

[TSi Kid]

I'm just biased. I don't like the thought of adding yet another system into the mix on cars making over 100hp per hole.

So I should just run nitrous instead?

 

[Boosted98gsx]

For the same reasons you are not, Andy . Certainly not what you REALLY think is the reason.

If your "wisdom" comes from regurgitating what kind of spark plugs to use, I suppose.

 

[dsm-onster]

You have not contributed anything here, thusfar. I've at least contributed what was successful with my hotpipe cars. . . Come on now, Andy. All that's been proven is that the paper says that it doesn't work so well. Meanwhile, it's working GREAT for all of us that use it. What's your various "plugs" into this thread been worth so far? You havn't contributed much in another forum you and I frequent as well. Simply the same old "paper says so" format. And really no real world experimentation, on any platform, you've contributed. As bbender puts the kind, you seam to have a "shepsm" Which is just fine. But there's a reason you havn't said anything with meat in this thread.

I'm willing to let it go at the first post of the second page of this thread. Are you? OR are you going to show your apparent envy and insecurity further. I was absolutely wrong. And after corrected, my math and Tom's math intersect at the same number. That's great that he offered his knowledge to actually contribute. . .

. . . Back on topic folks. I apologize for some members here.

EDIT: for the record, I know very little about sparkplugs. I run Iridiums . . .

 

[Boosted98gsx]

So I should just run nitrous instead?

Nitrous is an oxidizer, not a charge air cooler / knock suppressant. I would run Meth, but it's bad to use as a clutch, as there's no guarantee that it will always be there when you need it.

This is the only reason I am hesitant to use the stuff.

 

[TSimage]

My Galant runs E85/E98 and meth.

The meth is used more so for cooling my hot pipe than anything. You guys are basing your reasoning off of far too simple of a scale. Regardless of the cooling affects of Ethanol, this changes not the hot air being pushed into my intake manifold and getting hotter and hotter as my engine bay temps increase...

It works.

Bottom line.

End of story.

To the OP, until someone who has ACTUALLY RAN THE SETUP tells you differently, try not to let the "tooner" crowd sway you. You'll find a lot of people enjoy posting their opinions on things that are either biased or completely ignorant.

A hotpiped car will ALWAYS be more responsive and faster than an a/a setup as long as you can maintain similar air temps. This is remedial at best and even the dumbest kid in a basic physics/engineering class could reason this. Only thing better is hotpiped routed A/W setup. True with enough meth added you can see increases in pure octane power rating but in general the biggest increase netted is through cooling of both the intake and combustion..

 

[Boosted98gsx]

My Galant runs E85/E98 and meth.

The meth is used more so for cooling my hot pipe than anything. You guys are basing your reasoning off of far too simple of a scale. Regardless of the cooling affects of Ethanol, this changes not the hot air being pushed into my intake manifold and getting hotter and hotter as my engine bay temps increase...

It works.

Bottom line.

End of story.

To the OP, until someone who has ACTUALLY RAN THE SETUP tells you differently, try not to let the "tooner" crowd sway you. You'll find a lot of people enjoy posting their opinions on things that are either biased or completely ignorant.

A hotpiped car will ALWAYS be more responsive and faster than an a/a setup as long as you can maintain similar air temps. This is remedial at best and even the dumbest kid in a basic physics/engineering class could reason this. Only thing better is hotpiped routed A/W setup..

Then it wouldn't be a hotpipe....?

 

[TSi Kid]

Nitrous is an oxidizer, not a charge air cooler / knock suppressant. I would run Meth, but it's bad to use as a clutch, as there's no guarantee that it will always be there when you need it.

This is the only reason I am hesitant to use the stuff.

I was kidding, I would never run spray (personal vendetta).

To the OP, until someone who has ACTUALLY RAN THE SETUP tells you differently, try not to let the "tooner" crowd sway you. You'll find a lot of people enjoy posting their opinions on things that are either biased or completely ignorant.

I know it would be better, performance wise, but how is it on the street?
Less piping, more response, but why is it that you don't see that many street cars with that setup?

 

[Boosted98gsx]

I know it would be better, performance wise, but how is it on the street?
Less piping, more response, but why is it that you don't see that many street cars with that setup?

There really isn't any need to run both. E85 can handle ridiculous amounts of boost and timing w/o detonation. You are really messing something up if you are knocking on alcohol.

Would it help? Sure. Is it necessary? Probably not. It's benefits are probably orders of magnitudes below anything you'd ever really notice.

 

[UofACATS]

I think the least voodoo solution to this problem, is the people who ran the e85/meth 16g car, decided it better to go to an air to air intercooler, and the car was faster.

What about the pressure drop across the IC core? On a maxed out 16G, wouldn't that make the car slower?


Also, do you have any examples of your statement? Thanks.

 

[TSi Kid]

Would it help? Sure. Is it necessary? Probably not. It's benefits are probably orders of magnitudes below anything you'd ever really notice.

I want to see actual results, I believe it is over kill as well but I have no facts in my backing so this is just an opinion.

Physically, however, the theory behind it makes sense that would would gain a good amount of power, but on a 400-500whp street car I'm thinking that e85 is enough.

 

[dsm-onster]

TSimage is right, all these probably nots, probably orders less, etc are becoming rediculous. It works very well. Perhaps it's simply the fact that meth contributes to the total octane considering I inject 20gal/min in my h1c setup. Yes it's another system to fail. But simply if the pump fails or if i'm out of fluid, my hobbs switch deactivates my boost control. low boost and normal timing means no damage. IF my wally fuel pumps fail, the motor is shot running race gas, pump, or ethanol with intercooler anyhow.

I ran a 13.4 with the stock sidemount and stock fuel stock turbo, FWD, street tires, a sh!tty 60ft, using pump gas and meth. The intercooler was completely out of its relm. Meth and pumpgas still gave those results on a 14b huffing 22psi., over and over and over again with no cool down. I have no results directly switching to no intercooler with the h1c, but I ran a 12.1 with pump and meth with an ebay 2.5" core that's only 20" in length and 9" in height. Terrible core design. Using pump and meth. . . . So far hotpipe, e85, and meth has yielded LESS knock at HIGHER boost per my scanmaster. It feels stronger too, with better 70-90mph times.

I will likely go back to an intercooler considering I have a 2 1/2 hour trip to annapolis MD to get e85 at the pump (you with e85 locally should count your blessings that you can even have these options), but I love the setup as is so far. So from my experience: e85 and intercooler, or e85 and meth injection; pick your poison. No need for IC with meth injection. Yes, you are running a risk, But there are benefits that may be worth it like turbo response and keeping boost up in the higher rpms by not running an IC.

Trivia: how much meth nozzle DID the English evo3 16g car run? He was running between 42 and 48lb/min, Or realistically, he was pushing the 16g off the map, not 70% efficiency where you see 200-290intake temps at the sustained boost.

 

[TSimage]

Then it wouldn't be a hotpipe....?

What part of "hotpipe routed" translates to a hotpipe when I specifically say its an a/w setup?

By routed like a Hot pipe I am referring to the direct routed setups that simply have an a/w core in the middle adding little 2 no pipe length and bends.

Regardless if thats all you gained from the post I'm wasting my time even explaining that much of it to you..

The argument is mute when referring to running meth with E85.. People say its dangerous?? The affect of the Meth on the E85 isn't any where as exaggerated as the affect it ahs on your regular piss octane gas. so by such dumbfounded reasoning one would say that meth injection in itself is pointless?

Gibberish.

Its getting too late and I'm heading out for the night or I'd go off on one of my famous rants on how stupid all of this is but I'll keep it short and simple.

You have 2 people who have actually ran it telling you the benefits of it and you have 2 people who have no idea wtf they are talking about "guessing' on the outcome. You're a big boy, I'll let you fend for yourself on that one. I have faith you'll choose wisely. If you want some guidance on the matter than feel free to ask and when I return I would love nothing more than to help out a fellow curious DSMer but if this is a "Who do I listen to" back and forth thing then I am wasting my time.

 

[cantgo2fast]

Well now i have a question. If you were running a meth setup with 8.4gal/hr of flow how big was your tank? Did you run it all the time? or just on high boost, racing conditions?

What about a setup for a roadracing car I feel like you would need a big ass tank if you were going to run 15-20 laps at 2minutes a piece for a whole race weekend? Or you would need to bring a lot and fill it up everytime you brought it in

This seems like it would be an amazing setup for drag and autocross cars with the gain in responsiveness.

What does one of those systems weigh?? full tank lines and pump? vs a air to air intercooler? that would be an interesting comparison.

Sorry for all the questions im very intrigued by using alternatives to race gas, might be something I do for a living actually

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

From all these calculations, it seems as if some of these people or from what ive read spray the whole time. And i know thats not the case. Which is why i think e85, meth, AND a FMIC is essential. So you arent spraying fully and still have an affective way to cool if the meth fails/runs out, etc.

 

[dsm-onster]

My kit cuts on at 10psi. Usage depends on much time I spend over 10psi . Typical for me is all over the place. One week I didn't go through a gallon, the next I went through 2 in 2 days. Considering e85 is so knock resistant, the methanol can still be looked at as a "there when you need it" system.

. . .And to repeat for emphasis, take advantage of an affordable ADJUSTABLE hobbs switch in line with your injection feed line after any injection solenoids; series into battery power with your now useless stock fpr or egr solenoid. So that when the solenoid is not active, the boost signal shunts directly to the gate actuator. There's a million and one ways to do it with the useless solenoids right under the hood. And there will be no issues with pump failure, or solenoid activation failure, or even brain failure in checking the reservoir. It will NOT however prevent issues from a clogged nozzle. You'll just have to use distilled water (if you're running water/alky mix) and pure meth, with quality feed line materials plus filter to prevent a nozzle clog. And I always check the nozzle when I check the oil. Locate it for easy access.

 

[donniekak]

I ran a 13.4 with the stock sidemount and stock fuel stock turbo, FWD, street tires, a sh!tty 60ft, using pump gas and meth. The intercooler was completely out of its relm.

How crappy is the stock sidemount? I trapped 108 with the stock sidemount, and full stock exhaust. Only mods were, evo3, mbc, 2g maf, 255 pump, and 750's, on e85.

 

[TSi Kid]

Well now i have a question. If you were running a meth setup with 8.4gal/hr of flow how big was your tank? Did you run it all the time? or just on high boost, racing conditions?

What about a setup for a roadracing car I feel like you would need a big ass tank if you were going to run 15-20 laps at 2minutes a piece for a whole race weekend? Or you would need to bring a lot and fill it up everytime you brought it in

This seems like it would be an amazing setup for drag and autocross cars with the gain in responsiveness.

What does one of those systems weigh?? full tank lines and pump? vs a air to air intercooler? that would be an interesting comparison.

Sorry for all the questions im very intrigued by using alternatives to race gas, might be something I do for a living actually

Completly off topic, go start your own thread.