2G Is a carbon hatch worth it?

[AvaTai]

I need to replace my rear hatch because the last owner decided to put a GSX wing on an RS using drywall screws construction adhesive in the wrong location. They didn't seal any of the holes, so the hatch is rusting nicely, and the wing itself is loose. Lovely.

I'm thinking of replacing the hatch with carbon fiber. It'll help even out the weight distribution (I'm going to install a carbon hood, fenders, wing, and some purely aesthetic bits, as well as lighter bumpers and skirts from Veilside), but I'm not sure which to choose, how much weight I would actually save (with or without a lexan back window), or how it would look unpainted on a green car. Or, y'know, if I should buy a normal hatch for $150 or so and get it painted.

 

[Ryan4dc]

Had a carbon hatch on my talon. Thing bolted up no problem but fitment wasn't too great. The window seal let go after a few years so water dripped right on top of my subwoofer in heavy rain. Sold the car with it. Was a lot lighter then the oem one on the bright side.

 

[jman1699]

Depends how deep the pocket are. One good thing is you don't have to match paint and still looks sharp.

 

[gofer]

I'm thinking of replacing the hatch with carbon fiber. It'll help even out the weight distribution (I'm going to install a carbon hood, fenders, wing, and some purely aesthetic bits, as well as lighter bumpers and skirts from Veilside), but I'm not sure which to choose, how much weight I would actually save (with or without a lexan back window), or how it would look unpainted on a green car. Or, y'know, if I should buy a normal hatch for $150 or so and get it painted.

Lightening up the rear of your car won't help even out weight distribution, if anything it will make it worse as far as having a 50/50 front to rear weight over the axles. That being said, I wouldn't concern yourself with weight distribution and wasting your time buying lighter bumpers and side skirts from Veilside (is this 2003?). If you're concern about it then read through the multiple threads hear concerning 2g weight loss mods that really cost you nothing and can actually drop a significant amount of weight off your 2g. Here's a few good one's for you to peruse...

2g Clean Looking Weight Reduction
Ideas For Weight Reduction
​

If you're replacing the rear hatch with carbon fiber but retaining the stock glass it's a cosmetic upgrade (if you like the look of CF) since a decent chunk of the weight is also hatch glass. I have a CF hatch with stock glass in it still (doesn't leak if it's professionally installed) and it's heavy as all hell trying to open/close it, you feel every pound too since you lose the hatch struts when you install the CF hatch (something to keep in mind). You also lose the rear hatch cleaner (sprayer) as well as the rear windshield wiper/motor and 3rd brake light, which should also be taken into account for weight savings.

Stock hatch w/o glass : Approx. 30lbs
Stock glass : Approx. 20lbs
Rear wiper motor/arm : Approx. 6lbs
Hatch struts : Approx 1lb​

CF hatch w/o glass : Approx. 15lbs
Lexan hatch glass : Approx. 12lbs​

 

[GoCanes777]

Carbonetics has a great selection of carbon parts. I am picking up a bumper, hood, and hatch for when my car goes in for paint. The hood is 500$ and the hatch is 600$. If you are interested in there catalog shoot me your e-mail in a DM and I can send it over to you. From what i've gather from other members they fit great and have no leak issues.

 

[AvaTai]

Lightening up the rear of your car won't help even out weight distribution, if anything it will make it worse as far as having a 50/50 front to rear weight over the axles.

I thought the car's weight was significantly biased towards the front? I know a CF hatch with lexan wouldn't help a lot, but it would have to help some.

That being said, I wouldn't concern yourself with weight distribution and wasting your time buying lighter bumpers and side skirts from Veilside (is this 2003?).

Some of us happen to like things like that It's really more because I want to and like the look (subtle, but still different enough).

If you're concerned about it then read through the multiple threads here concerning 2g weight loss mods that really cost you nothing and can actually drop a significant amount of weight off your 2g. Here's a few good one's for you to peruse...

2g Clean Looking Weight Reduction
Ideas For Weight Reduction
​

​

Going by those (and a few other posts), I seem to be going in the right direction as I'm also reducing the audio system and getting Sparco seats+wheel and Takata 4-points to go with the CF bits. Didn't know I could strip the interior that much and still keep the stock look though, so thank you!

If you're replacing the rear hatch with carbon fiber but retaining the stock glass it's a cosmetic upgrade (if you like the look of CF) since a decent chunk of the weight is also hatch glass. I have a CF hatch with stock glass in it still (doesn't leak if it's professionally installed) and it's heavy as all hell trying to open/close it, you feel every pound too since you lose the hatch struts when you install the CF hatch (something to keep in mind). You also lose the rear hatch cleaner (sprayer) as well as the rear windshield wiper/motor and 3rd brake light, which should also be taken into account for weight savings.

Stock hatch w/o glass : Approx. 30lbs
Stock glass : Approx. 20lbs
Rear wiper motor/arm : Approx. 6lbs
Hatch struts : Approx 1lb​

CF hatch w/o glass : Approx. 15lbs
Lexan hatch glass : Approx. 12lbs​

So, given I don't have a 3rd brake light or wiper system back there (yay for having an RS), I can expect to lose 24lbs, or a 2% reduction of rear weight. About what I expected based on my research into reducing my VR-4's weight (which is also gonna have a VS kit and a ton of CF bits). Also why do you lose the hatch struts, is there no way to install them on a CF hatch at all?

 

[tylersevo]

Much 's in this thread....yes the 2g is front biased in regards to weight, so if you want to improve distribution you wouldn't lighten up the rear with a cf/lexan hatch. And you really intend to drop all this money on an rs while you're worried about weight distribution in a car with 140hp at best?

 

[AvaTai]

Much 's in this thread....yes the 2g is front biased in regards to weight, so if you want to improve distribution you wouldn't lighten up the rear with a cf/lexan hatch.

True, but it'll reduce weight overall. That's the main thing. Just wanted to know how much it'll mess with said distribution as I'd like it to be as even as possible while weighing as little as possible.

And you really intend to drop all this money on an rs while you're worried about weight distribution in a car with 140hp at best?

Yes, yes I do, mainly because it'll end up with far more hp than that with everything else I plan on doing to the car. At least read user's car profiles before ridiculing their ideas, please.

 

[gofer]

I thought the car's weight was significantly biased towards the front? I know a CF hatch with lexan wouldn't help a lot, but it would have to help some.

It IS heavier in the front, say 2200lbs F / 800lbs R (w/ you in the car) for a total of 3000lbs. That means your car's currently 73/27 using this example. Ideally you want as close to a 50/50 weight distribution from front/rear while maintaining a low roll center (keeping the weight low) and centering it on the car keeping it between the axles. That being said, if you remove 30lbs from the hatch/glass going w/ CF and lexan then the overall weight will now be 2970lbs. You'll still be 2200lbs F but you'll be 770lbs R, and a 74/26 ratio. Which means you're going the wrong direction with weight distribution and spending over easily over $1000 doing it.

Some of us happen to like things like that It's really more because I want to and like the look (subtle, but still different enough).

Whatever you want to do, it's your 2g. Just don't try to justify your dropping money on a Veilside body kit and call it weight savings, if anything you're adding weight.

Going by those (and a few other posts), I seem to be going in the right direction as I'm also reducing the audio system and getting Sparco seats+wheel and Takata 4-points to go with the CF bits. Didn't know I could strip the interior that much and still keep the stock look though, so thank you!

You might be going in the right direction removing your audio and getting lighter seats, etc. but it seems like you played Forza a few times and now you're trying to lighten your actual car.

Have you done ANY research on purchasing Sparco seats or mounting them in your 2g? I actually have a Sparco Evo II seat, just the driver side, and I'm about $1.5k in on one seat after it was all said and done. There's no such thing as bolt in, brackets need fabricated by a professional or else it's your life if you ever wreck.

I also don't recommend going to a 4/5pt harness without a certified roll bar/cage. If you're strapped into a 4/5pt harness happen to roll the car, guess what the roof will collapse down on? Your head. In a 3pt (stock) belt you can naturally slide left or right where as a 4/5pt your screwed.

So, given I don't have a 3rd brake light or wiper system back there (yay for having an RS), I can expect to lose 24lbs, or a 2% reduction of rear weight. About what I expected based on my research into reducing my VR-4's weight (which is also gonna have a VS kit and a ton of CF bits). Also why do you lose the hatch struts, is there no way to install them on a CF hatch at all?

There's no place to bolt the struts to, the holes are filled. There's also no holes for the spoiler so those need drilled out if you want the stock spoiler on there. There's also no tab locations for the plastic hatch trim so you'll lose that too...



IDEALLY you want to pull weight from the front of the car where you can, using those links I posted earlier for example. If you're going to spend money on weight mods the biggest bang for your buck is going to a smaller Odyssey PC680 battery that weighs 16lbs, whereas the stock battery is 42lbs. You're dropping 26lbs and you're spending $150 to $300 doing it (depending on if you can make your own battery tray or not). That being said, you're spending $5.75 to $11.50 per pound lost and it's in the front of the car where you should be dropping weight which would bring your F/R weight distribution closer to 50/50. You could even go one step further and relocate the lighter battery behind the front seats (but between the axles) keeping it as low as you can.

You buy the CF hatch and lexan you're spending anywhere between $1000 to $1500 losing 24lbs and you're dropping weight in the wrong area of the car. That being said you're spending anywhere from $41.60 to $62.50 per pound lost which is f.cking stupid. Unless you've done absolutely EVERYTHING you can to remove weight from the car, that's when it gets expensive.


You do what you want, again it's your car and your money, but if you're ACTUALLY trying to drop weight to improve performance you're going about it completely wrong with expensive CF parts, FIA approved racing seats and body kits. All these parts might drop the overall weight of the car but you're going about it wrong. Or just admit you're wanting the CF/body kit for looks and we can close this thread because it's pointless.

 

[tylersevo]

True, but it'll reduce weight overall. That's the main thing. Just wanted to know how much it'll mess with said distribution as I'd like it to be as even as possible while weighing as little as possible.



Yes, yes I do, mainly because it'll end up with far more hp than that with everything else I plan on doing to the car. At least read user's car profiles before ridiculing their ideas, please.

I did. To each their own but you'll make power way easier just getting a 4g car. 300hp on a 420a is a lot of work vs bolting a 16g on a gst/x

 

[Chumpaumpalumpa]

It IS heavier in the front, say 2200lbs F / 800lbs R (w/ you in the car) for a total of 3000lbs. That means your car's currently 73/27 using this example. Ideally you want as close to a 50/50 weight distribution from front/rear while maintaining a low roll center (keeping the weight low) and centering it on the car keeping it between the axles. That being said, if you remove 30lbs from the hatch/glass going w/ CF and lexan then the overall weight will now be 2970lbs. You'll still be 2200lbs F but you'll be 770lbs R, and a 74/26 ratio. Which means you're going the wrong direction with weight distribution and spending over easily over $1000 doing it.

Actually you want higher roll centers because the roll center is below the CG. You're thinking low center of gravity. Roll centers are determined by suspension geometry. You want them higher because this means there is less distance between the RC and CG which means less torque is applied into rolling the body of the car and more load goes into the tires directly, quicker. In other words it has less leverage to roll the car with.

 

[gofer]

Said roll center meant lower center of gravity, thanks for catching that...

Good thing this is a "Is buying a Carbon Fiber hatch worth it?" thread in the Newbie forum and not a suspension/handling thread in the Suspension Tech forum.

 

[AvaTai]

@gofer: Sorry, I suck at being clear sometimes. I know a CF+Lexan hatch would make it more front heavy, I just wanted to know how much. Seems like the overall question here, is it worth it, can be answered with a simple 'no,' and as such you may close the thread if deemed necessary. TIme to find me an old metal hatch!

I also know that a VS kit adds weight overall (but moreso changes aesthetics obvs), but aren't the bumpers a tiny bit lighter than what I have now due to material (plastics vs fiberglass)? The other front CF replacements will help reduce front weight further and, as you say, more effectively make the distribution closer to 50/50. Good call with the smaller battery, too. Was gonna do that to my VR-4, didn't think about it this time around.

Re: the seats, yes I have researched mounting options and have found a mount designed for these cars that works with Sparco seats. Both seats (Chrono's) with all mounts and belts will run me around $1640, not including shipping or taxes. I will also be installing a custom roll cage with a welder buddy of mine to meet local track regulations (need a legal testing ground...), so the 4pt harnesses (and complimentary airbag deletes) should be safe. I think.

 

[gofer]

May I ask what mounts you decided to go with that work with the Sparco seat you chose?

 

[AvaTai]

They're actually also from Sparco, the 600 series bases. They make them for a variety of cars including 2G DSMs, and according to what I've read they fit well and hold strong to the stock holes and posts.

 

[gofer]

Unfortunately Sparco discontinued the 600 series seat brace for the 2g DSM, at one time they made them but stopped because of head clearance issues from what I've read. The only Eclipse brackets they offer now are for 1g, 3g, and 4g models.

There's currently three companies (that I found when I was installing my Sparco) that make a bolt-in seat bracket that utilizes the OE 2g seat mounting points and work with Sparco's, Weapon-R, Planted Technology, and Wedge.

From personal experience, as far as quality/fitment goes, the best designed/built brackets are the ones from Planted. I'd strap my ass into a seat and not worry about the welds on the bracket holding up. They aren't as light on the wallet though compared to the other two, is safety something you want to sacrifice for cost though? They drop right in perfectly over the OE seat hardware and are solid.
The Wedge brackets are built well but their design sometimes isn't exactly bolt in, seems like it's a 50/50 whether they'll drop right in over the existing 2g OE seat hardware or not. With a quick search you'll find evidence of this, not just our platform. If you can get them to bolt down with a few modifications you don't have to worry about it coming apart in the event that you wreck.
The Weapon-R's, f.ck em. I wanted to see them for myself and couldn't believe how poorly they were designed. The material they used was very thin with very little bracing, the welds look awful, and NEITHER side fit onto the existing OE seat studs. I'd be nervous using those under a driving simulator seat and crashing...

What it comes down to though is head room. My Sparco Evo II is 36" from the base to the top, the Chrono is even taller at 36.5". If I were to bet, I'd say you're going to have the same, if not worse, problems with clearance to the headliner than I did. I'm 72" (6') and my head was up into the headliner, which is why I had to have a custom fabricated bracket that dropped the seat to the floor board SAFELY.

2g : MAKING HEADROOM FOR A RACING SEAT

 

[91stocker]

If its on an RS, no its not worth it in any way shape or form. Buy a used stock rear hatch.

The seats wont matter either. Save your cash.