Intercooler Sprayer [Merged 12-7] sprayers ic i/c fmic sidemount smic co2 water

[terefic181]

If you haven't tried here http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/7678//DSM_water_injection/

You might take a look. I haven't looked into water injection in quite a while.

 

[boostedinaz]

All these new spayers and what not are all just bandaids for bad tunning or improper setup. If you are running a certain PSI and it detonates then lower the boost and try and tune your car better. If you want a quick burst of power then but a small shot on the car and call it a day.

Michael

 

[greyforestgst]

hes not talking about water injection, hes just talking about an i/c spray.

lots of people have done it. i saw a write up by a subaru wrx owner that could be applied to our cars. just google "intercooler sprayer" for some good ideas of what to do. you might be swayed to use co2 or n2o instead of water. im going to do one later this year and it will be a home-built water system.

i would personally use a new resorvoir and pump over your stock windshield wiper setup.

 

[JohnTSI]

All these new spayers and what not are all just bandaids for bad tunning or improper setup. If you are running a certain PSI and it detonates then lower the boost and try and tune your car better. If you want a quick burst of power then but a small shot on the car and call it a day.

Michael

I am not talking about injection to cure detonation. Detonation is not a problem for me atm at 30-32PSI i am getting no problems with knock. I am talking about a bar sprayer in front of the IC to cool it down. Others have seen good results on the dyno with them but I am not sold on thier benifits on the track. I was asking if anyone had any first hand input on it.

 

[terefic181]

I kina mis-spoke when I refered to it as "injection" on my post above. The site I was refering to, at least used to have, an area with IC sprayers and I believe also some data on the subject.

Re: boostedinaz post:

All these new spayers and what not are all just bandaids for bad tunning or improper setup...

I realize that a lot of the guys on the site tend to be more 1/4 mile orriented, and that's great, most of us either are, or have been, interested in drag racing, but there are at least a few of us that are now or also, are interested in some different areas of the sport.

So, in that light, I suggest that spraying may not always be an improper setup, but rather a necessary set up for some activites. The road race guys at this time, are at least looking into the sprayers because of engine overheating issues. While running closely on the back of the guy in front of you, you have heating problems with these cars as it is. When you add a front mounted cooler this brings the heat to a level not tolerable. So the answer for some is to run a beefed up side mount cooler keeping the radiator area clear, but even with larger side mount intercoolers you end up needing more cooling from somewhere. One answer for this problem is some kind of spraying, be it H2o or some other type of coolant.
So, maybe not in all cases using spraying is the result of improper tuning or
setup.

 

[my97mitsGSX]

i heard spraying nitrous during a 1/4 mile run is bad b/c it may leak into the air flow and cause you to run really lean since the ecu does not know you are putting nitrous into the system.

Its best to just spray at idle, then do the run. I could be wrong. Also i see some cars dyno 30-50whp extra and some with no power gains, wtf..

 

[boostedinaz]

i heard spraying nitrous during a 1/4 mile run is bad b/c it may leak into the air flow and cause you to run really lean since the ecu does not know you are putting nitrous into the system.

The O2 sensor will sense that there is more air in the system and add fuel accordingly. The same as a normal dry setup.

Its best to just spray at idle, then do the run. I could be wrong. Also i see some cars dyno 30-50whp extra and some with no power gains, wtf.

That is why they get so many extra hp. Most use N2O as the cooling agent and that gets engested into the motor adding false hp.

So, in that light, I suggest that spraying may not always be an improper setup, but rather a necessary set up for some activites. The road race guys at this time, are at least looking into the sprayers because of engine overheating issues. While running closely on the back of the guy in front of you, you have heating problems with these cars as it is. When you add a front mounted cooler this brings the heat to a level not tolerable. So the answer for some is to run a beefed up side mount cooler keeping the radiator area clear, but even with larger side mount intercoolers you end up needing more cooling from somewhere. One answer for this problem is some kind of spraying, be it H2o or some other type of coolant.
So, maybe not in all cases using spraying is the result of improper tuning or
setup.

I can see what you are saying but that again seems like a lack of setup. I know you are running the car hard for and extened period of time but in my eyes I would try and have those problems solved. What happens when you resevoir runs out and you cant spray anymore. Then you are screwed in that race cause of overheating or heat soke. I better route for air to the radiator or a larger IC or somwething to that effect would seem like a better choice.

The best part of this is that it is our own opinion and we are free to do what we like to our own car.

By the way I absoluty love the Upland area.

Michael

 

[gixrman]

So I guess all the GN guys and several magazines are wrong when they run W/I and intercooler sprayers for heatsoak and cooling adds. I never looked at W/I as a "bandaid" but a tool to help with performance. I don't care what size intercooler you are running at some point it will heatsoak. If W/I and IC sprayers come factory on several cars it must be benificial.

 

[boostedinaz]

So I guess all the GN guys and several magazines are wrong when they run W/I and intercooler sprayers for heatsoak and cooling adds. I never looked at W/I as a "bandaid" but a tool to help with performance. I don't care what size intercooler you are running at some point it will heatsoak. If W/I and IC sprayers come factory on several cars it must be benificial.

Lame tires and rubber suspension bushings comes on cars from the factory so they can be bad??? Wrong. Just becasue the car coems with it doesnt mean its a benefit. The automakers follow trends so that they can sell cars. If a bag of shit became popular then they would have a bag of shit option on there line of cars.

All the GN guys I have seen or hangout with all run the way there car is setup. The only real deviation would be between race gas and pump gas. Other than that they spend the time to get a good tune and dont worry about other little things. If we are talking about a 30 hp gain, maybe, that determines the outcoem of a race then you found a good race. Most the time there is one car that is a good deal faster and wins no matter what. That extra 30 hp wont make much a of a differance in the real world. Plus if they are so great then show me some actual improvment on lap times or at the strip. It would be as easy as two back to back runs. Then you can post with a better reason than "the car came with it it has to be good"

Like I said this is my opinion and nothing more.

Michael

 

[GSX_RCR]

The O2 sensor will sense that there is more air in the system and add fuel accordingly. The same as a normal dry setup.

A "normal" dry nitrous oxide setup taps off the fuel pressure regulator to enrich the a/f mixture accordingly. I don't think the stock ECU has the range or capability to adjust the a/f mixture quickly enough to supply the needed fuel. Increasing fuel pressure would be the easiest way around it w/o tripping the ECU into throwing a check engine light.

That is why they get so many extra hp. Most use N2O as the cooling agent and that gets engested into the motor adding false hp.

HP = HP. There's no such thing as FALSE HP...well, maybe in ricer terms. But if it registers on a dyno or increases trap speeds, it's plain and simple more horsepower. The cooling effect of nitrous oxide means a more dense intake charge. More oxygen + fuel = boom. Simple facts.

The best part of this is that it is our own opinion and we are free to do what we like to our own car.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[boostedinaz]

A "normal" dry nitrous oxide setup taps off the fuel pressure regulator to enrich the a/f mixture accordingly. I don't think the stock ECU has the range or capability to adjust the a/f mixture quickly enough to supply the needed fuel. Increasing fuel pressure would be the easiest way around it w/o tripping the ECU into throwing a check engine light.

I understand this, but it will adjust for the amount we are talking about. I dotn see ho w the ECU will throw a CEL becasue of a small shot, perhaps 10-20 HP.

HP = HP. There's no such thing as FALSE HP...well, maybe in ricer terms. But if it registers on a dyno or increases trap speeds, it's plain and simple more horsepower. The cooling effect of nitrous oxide means a more dense intake charge. More oxygen + fuel = boom. Simple facts.

I see what you are saying, but look at it this way. They are saying a 30-40 hp gain. This is with the sprayer and a small shot. Now what if i want to use CO2 instead. CO2 is a well know combuistion inhibitor so they I will only get maybe 5 or so HP from it. What conclucion is the right one? There are only a few ways to find the actual HO increase from just the sprayer it self and not the additive used along with the sprayer.

Again, if they are so great, show me back to back runs showing an improvement in times.

Michael





I couldn't agree more.[/QUOTE]

 

[GSX_RCR]

I understand this, but it will adjust for the amount we are talking about. I dotn see ho w the ECU will throw a CEL becasue of a small shot, perhaps 10-20 HP.

I just re-read the thread. You're talking about SPRAYERS and not actually injecting, correct? Then yes, the minute change in intake charge temp can be compensated for easily.

I see what you are saying, but look at it this way. They are saying a 30-40 hp gain. This is with the sprayer and a small shot. Now what if i want to use CO2 instead. CO2 is a well know combuistion inhibitor so they I will only get maybe 5 or so HP from it. What conclucion is the right one? There are only a few ways to find the actual HO increase from just the sprayer it self and not the additive used along with the sprayer.

Thanx, reading this clicked my brain to what's going on. Using an IC sprayer is usually reserved for rally or autox vehicles, mainly due to the high boost levels and low level airflow during some stages in which the IC can heatsoak. But in terms of drag racing, the IC should get enough airflow during it's run to cool down the intake charge...besides, it's done and over with quickly, so there's no need to fight off detonation when you're only WOT for 9-11 seconds at a time. And I don't think the drag track officials would like it too much if you're tracking water all over the staging lanes.

I think this is where the confusion sets in. Two different mindsets, two different mechanical approaches. Drag racers argue that you should have everything tuned right w/o having to resort to "band aid" techniques. Endurance vehicles sometimes require these band-aid methods because "you just don't know" in the heat of the battle. So any time you mix and match performance tuningmethods, you get conflicting opinions on the same subject.

Again, if they are so great, show me back to back runs showing an improvement in times.

As for sprayers, finishing a rally stage is proof enough. But in terms of HP gains, there probably won't be any consistent data to support it's improvement, if any.

 

[1LE]

The O2 sensor will sense that there is more air in the system and add fuel accordingly.

Not at > ~70% TP it won't.

 

[boostedinaz]

Not at > ~70% TP it won't.

At that point you go into open loop and there is going to be alot more fuel than needed already so there would be no lean out. The only reason there wouldn't be a rich condition is if the person hasd tuned there car to run titties and beer. If they have done this then they should be aware of the affects that running a sprayer with N2O and they would tune for that extra oxygen.

Michael

 

[1LE]

"besides, it's done and over with quickly, so there's no need to fight off detonation when you're only WOT for 9-11 seconds at a time"

Yes there is I'm pulling timing like mad and sitting at 900C EGT's about 5 or 6 seconds into the 1/4 mile right now! Then I coast through to low 16's... Stupid stock SMIC

 

[ahains]

Bah, water injection is the same kind of band-aid that race fuel is.
Both give you an increase in effective octane.
Would you suggest that you should tune to not require race gas?

Regarding external water sprayers, they can provide some measurable benefit for cheap. Ken Blake in Oregon did some logged runs with his turbo MR2. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but he saw a significant difference in intake temps doing a few runs. It is true that you can configure your car to perform this same way without water spraying (better IC), but you cannot do it anywhere near as cheap/easy/geeky

My $.02
-Adrian

 

[96whitetalon]

on my car i got a pair of windshild wiper spayers mounted inside my intercooler box (the thing that help force the air in) and i just fill the tank with water and rubbing alc. I can tell the diffiances like 5-10 hp on a freeway pull

 

[1LE]

MR2 does result in the best numbers for a sprayer as the area where the IC is normally located is very small and has very poor airflow I'm trying to remember Ken's setup, I *think* it's a spearco IC (thicker, but not much more surface area than stock MR2). What a DSMer would consider very small for the HP level...

 

[boostedinaz]

Bah, water injection is the same kind of band-aid that race fuel is.
Both give you an increase in effective octane.
Would you suggest that you should tune to not require race gas?

Ummmmm, not really. The race gas is an actual increase in octane among other things. The sprayer just cools you intake charge a bit, so I fail to see how that increase octane.

I dont see race gas as a banaid at all. Most good tuners will tune for max power on pump gas then put race gas in and setup a specific tune for racegas that goes along with more, boost, timming, burn rate, and detonation tolerance. They dont use it to get rid of detonation like most people will.

"My car retards timming cause im detonating"

"Oh just toss some racegas in there"

Iwoudl rather tune or modify my setup than just toss a few gallons of racegas in. i, personally, would try and get the max tune from pump gas because that is what i have the pocket book for and the access to. Plus I dont want to get caught with my pants down one night and not be able to get racegas to make the most out of my setup. I run it the way I drive it.

Michael

 

[ahains]

Ummmmm, not really. The race gas is an actual increase in octane among other things. The sprayer just cools you intake charge a bit, so I fail to see how that increase octane.

Among other things? The only thing that race gas does for you is higher octane.
What is octane? Octane is a measurement of a particular blend of gasoline's resistance to detonation.
What is detonation? Detonation is the air/fuel mixture exploding rather than burning.
Why does detonation occur? Because of heat and pressure.

What does water do? It absorbes a small amount of heat from the intake charge (EDIT: before entering the cylinder), and it absorbes a massive amounts of heat during the burn in the cylinder.

Of course you're welcome to your own opinion, but IMHO water is just as "real" of an octane boost as adding tuluene, xylene, or whatever. It allows you to run a higher combination of heat and pressure in the combustion cylinder, just like race gas does (although I would agree that race gas does its job a little bit better).

I dont see race gas as a banaid at all. Most good tuners will tune for max power on pump gas then put race gas in and setup a specific tune for racegas that goes along with more, boost, timming, burn rate, and detonation tolerance. They dont use it to get rid of detonation like most people will.

I agree with you 100% that you should not need water injection or race gas to get rid of detonation under normal operating conditions. There is something wrong with your car if you do need this. I see water injection as an octane additive. We have 92 octane at the pump around here. Personally I love the idea of injecting to water to give me the equivalent of a few digits higher in addition to keeping carbon deposits non-existent.

However it is worth noting that water injection may *cure* a detonation problem if it is due to long term carbon build up. Race gas won't (of course sea foam or other products can do it as well)

"My car retards timming cause im detonating"

"Oh just toss some racegas in there"

Iwoudl rather tune or modify my setup than just toss a few gallons of racegas in. i, personally, would try and get the max tune from pump gas because that is what i have the pocket book for and the access to. Plus I dont want to get caught with my pants down one night and not be able to get racegas to make the most out of my setup. I run it the way I drive it.
Michael

You make some very good points here, and I agree wholeheartedly. Being dependent on race gas is annoying and costly. Water has a very low price, and a very high availability

All in all I think we think more alike then not, Michael, I just take exception to the statement that water injection is a band-aid. Unless of course you want to call 91/92/93 octane a band-aid since we should just run 87 octane with less boost and a huge intercooler

Take care,
Adrian

 

[terefic181]

Hey boostedinaz how ya doing. Sorry it took a while to get back to the post. I was at the track with Greg the last 3 days. I still say it's a necessity in our application in order to beef things up, but who am I.

Talking with Greg this weekend he's still contemplating trying the sprayer but hasn't put one in yet.

If you guys don't mind I'll post a pix from this weekend. Greg was running with some of the Rolex Series group guys at Cal Speedway.

 

[JessesTalon]

I thought spraying water on the run/track will get you kicked off as it is putting unwated materials on the track... ie water... hence cancel drags when it rains.


maybe same for auto-x as well?

 

[bastarddsm]

The O2 sensor will sense that there is more air in the system and add fuel accordingly. The same as a normal dry setup.

Wrong! The oxygen sensor is not used under closed loop operation. the ecu relies soly on rpm throttle position air flow

 

[boostedinaz]

The O2 sensor will sense that there is more air in the system and add fuel accordingly. The same as a normal dry setup.

Wrong! The oxygen sensor is not used under closed loop operation. the ecu relies soly on rpm throttle position air flow

I fixed the quote for you.

Before exclaiming that people are wrong you should double check you post. The O2 sensor works in CLOSED loop and when the car goes into to OPEN loop then it read from other sensors.

This has also been covered in the thread already.

 

[pneumo]

The O2 sensor works in CLOSED loop and when the car goes into to OPEN loop then it read from other sensors.

To further clarify this point; Closed loop occurs when the engine is running at part throttle cruising. In this phase the ECU uses the O2 sensor.

Open loop happens during WOT. O2 readings are not used by the ECU here.